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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 16, 2013 15:33:18 GMT -5
This was my "whoa" moment of the chat. I unfortunately didn't catch much of Guerra while I was down there (and admittedly may have not been paying attention), but that's a surprise.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 16, 2013 15:33:54 GMT -5
Deven Marrero. He's 6 feet, played three years at Arizona State, and last hit during his freshman year at A State. I know he's a very good fielder, but I haven't heard anyone compare him to Iglesias. Sox dumped Iglesias, whose hitting ability is much like Marrero's. Why are some people, including Gammons and the Sox, high on him? I don't see it. See the tools section of the list. They also didn't "dump" Iglesias. They traded him for an established MLB starting pitcher. Those are very different things.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 16, 2013 16:21:14 GMT -5
Joe Gunkel is my new favorite lower level prospect.
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Post by Guidas on Dec 16, 2013 16:24:47 GMT -5
Hard to root against anyone named Gunkel, if only because if he turns into something we can say, "Gunkel'd!" every time he Ks someone.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 16, 2013 16:27:45 GMT -5
Of if he's Goober we can start referring to people as "What a Gunkel that guy is" or "don't be such a Gunkel".
Heck, even if he's back we can use it.... just don't be boring and Mediocre Joe
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 16, 2013 16:45:26 GMT -5
The write up on Workman as posted in the Herold "an average curve that can get swings and misses" and the Best curveball are either a definite conflict or our pitcher's curveballs suck.
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Post by nexus on Dec 16, 2013 16:47:21 GMT -5
Very interesting on Webster/Buchholz "Webster has an outrageous ceiling [...] but it's very reasonable to wonder about the likelihood that he'll hit it given that he looked overwhelmed on the big league stage this year. Still, the same was said about Clay Buchholz five years ago -- and indeed it is worth noting that Buchholz has described watching Webster as being something akin to an out-of-body flashback for him." Except Buchholz cruised through the minors posting exceptional peripherals at every level. He hit a temporary wall in '08 because he forgot how to command his FB. Webster is still young and relatively new to pitching, but there are not many historic examples of SPs with fringe command who experienced a consistent and sustainable level of success.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 16, 2013 16:48:44 GMT -5
Joe Gunkel is my new favorite lower level prospect. Not just directing this at rjp, but Gunkel is a guy that we, especially Ian Cundall, have been on for a while.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 16, 2013 16:49:38 GMT -5
Very interesting on Webster/Buchholz "Webster has an outrageous ceiling [...] but it's very reasonable to wonder about the likelihood that he'll hit it given that he looked overwhelmed on the big league stage this year. Still, the same was said about Clay Buchholz five years ago -- and indeed it is worth noting that Buchholz has described watching Webster as being something akin to an out-of-body flashback for him." Except Buchholz cruised through the minors posting exceptional peripherals at every level. He hit a temporary wall in '08 because he forgot how to command his FB. Webster is still young and relatively new to pitching, but there are not many historic examples of SPs with fringe command who experienced a consistent and sustainable level of success. Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson yes, that's ridiculous.
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Post by jmei on Dec 16, 2013 16:53:17 GMT -5
A few other fascinating tidbits from Speier's chat that I don't think I'd ever seen mentioned before:
-Red Sox plan on reintroducing Betts to SS in 2014 -Mixed reviews on Denney's defense -Bryce Brentz's defense is likely limited to LF in Fenway -Red Sox think Tanaka's ceiling is a #3 -On Sean Coyle: "hyperintensity that creates frustration that makes it more difficult to find a way out of slumps" -Other Red Sox prospects went to Workman for advice on their curveballs -Speier has heard a lot of Wacha comps for Barnes
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Post by bjb406 on Dec 16, 2013 17:05:23 GMT -5
Am I the only one thats shocked to see Workman ahead of any of Barnes, Ranaudo, and Ball? much less all of them?
Also how in the hell is Cecchini behind Swihart or Webster, I would expect him to be second.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Dec 16, 2013 17:07:32 GMT -5
Am I the only one thats shocked to see Workman ahead of any of Barnes, Ranaudo, and Ball? much less all of them? I would've been shocked if you told me that on July 1, but after what he did in the major leagues ... no, not really. He helped his stock enormously by effectively pitching in Boston.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 16, 2013 17:08:30 GMT -5
The single biggest surprise to me was Owens positioning. The reason it surprises me is that BA is pretty much scouting based and the scouting comments the past few months have been nowhere near as glowing as the sabermetric comments. I'm not sure stats vs. scouts is the right characterization for the Owens debate. Both scouts and statheads are pretty divided on him. With a walk rate up over 12% he's not exactly a sabermetric darling. I'm interested in seeing the full top 100, because I want to know if they like Bradley less than I do, or they just love Owens that much. I'll stick with my original opinion. The balance of his peripherals relative to his age suggests a highly projectable sabermetric "darling". He generates a lot of swings and misses as well as poor contact. The Professor Parks review and follow up commentary suggests a bottom of the rotation starter.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 16, 2013 17:13:20 GMT -5
Joe Gunkel is my new favorite lower level prospect. Not just directing this at rjp, but Gunkel is a guy that we, especially Ian Cundall, have been on for a while. Undoubtedly true, on the other hand there's a significant difference between Top 30 and #52.
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Post by bjb406 on Dec 16, 2013 17:19:03 GMT -5
I don't know why you are surprised about Owens. Has anyone listed him outside the top 3 or 4? Its not a sabermetric thing or a scouting thing, its a 'look at how he is completely dominating at such a young age' thing.
Also, Bradley got best outfield arm? Either my memory is way off, or the organization has really sucky outfield arms, or that is a typo.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 16, 2013 17:19:05 GMT -5
Am I the only one thats shocked to see Workman ahead of any of Barnes, Ranaudo, and Ball? much less all of them? Also how in the hell is Cecchini behind Swihart or Webster, I would expect him to be second. Workman seems like the kind of pitcher who will outperform all of his scouting reports. Control and command might be a little underrated for prospects. He's a quite high floor guy.
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Post by buffs4444 on Dec 16, 2013 17:19:08 GMT -5
A few other fascinating tidbits from Speier's chat that I don't think I'd ever seen mentioned before: -Red Sox plan on reintroducing Betts to SS in 2014 -Mixed reviews on Denney's defense -Bryce Brentz's defense is likely limited to LF in Fenway-Red Sox think Tanaka's ceiling is a #3 -On Sean Coyle: "hyperintensity that creates frustration that makes it more difficult to find a way out of slumps" -Other Red Sox prospects went to Workman for advice on their curveballs -Speier has heard a lot of Wacha comps for Barnes Ouch, Brentz. That's the baseball equivalent of having a nice personality. I know there was a lot of discussion in the Betts thread, but still quite a jump for me. Hopefully he keeps producing to justify that spot and keeps climbing up higher. Echo what most others have also said.....that's a lot of talent.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 16, 2013 17:25:37 GMT -5
Deven Marrero. He's 6 feet, played three years at Arizona State, and last hit during his freshman year at A State. I know he's a very good fielder, but I haven't heard anyone compare him to Iglesias. Sox dumped Iglesias, whose hitting ability is much like Marrero's. Why are some people, including Gammons and the Sox, high on him? I don't see it. Marrero has a .345 career OBP as a pro, which is higher than Iglesias had at any minor league level. Comparing their bats is probably as unfair as comparing their gloves. Also, the Red Sox hardly dumped Iglesias, they traded him for a major league starting pitcher. I know some people thought the return wasn't great, but it wasn't like they gave up on the guy.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 16, 2013 17:56:47 GMT -5
Joe Gunkel is my new favorite lower level prospect. Not just directing this at rjp, but Gunkel is a guy that we, especially Ian Cundall, have been on for a while. Many times I'll see the term "pitcher's frame" and it's "yeah ok, looks like he might have that build". The picture for this guy on his SoxProspects web page leaves little doubt. 6'6", and 225 well-distributed pounds, looks like: He reminds be of someone though I haven't figured out who it is yet.
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Post by jbberlo on Dec 16, 2013 18:03:17 GMT -5
Is Betts really that good of an athlete? I would've thought Bradley or even Margot would have been. Betts doesnt seem to have special speed and definitely isnt too strong. Seems like thats a little odd
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 16, 2013 18:16:20 GMT -5
Is Betts really that good of an athlete? I would've thought Bradley or even Margot would have been. Betts doesnt seem to have special speed and definitely isnt too strong. Seems like thats a little odd Straight from his page on this site: Have only watched him on TV twice, so that isn't much of a sample. He looked at ease at second base but there weren't any difficult chances while I was watching. He did steal 8 bases last year while only being caught twice. Read a piece recently that mentioned how there were fewer multiple-sports athletes these days. Most tend to focus on the one sport their best at, and they're encouraged to do so. Betts was good at a bunch of them. Haven't researched it, but it was probably something like basketball, football, and track. It does appear that he has is quite a good athlete.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 16, 2013 18:17:56 GMT -5
I don't know why you are surprised about Owens. Has anyone listed him outside the top 3 or 4? Its not a sabermetric thing or a scouting thing, its a 'look at how he is completely dominating at such a young age' thing. Also, Bradley got best outfield arm? Either my memory is way off, or the organization has really sucky outfield arms, or that is a typo. It's not at all that I question that ranking, I'm fine with it, you mileage may or may not vary. It's more of a surprise to me that BA has him there, I just didn't expect that from them in particular. If BP had him there, it would have been much less of a surprise to me. But that's me, your mileage may vary there too.
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Post by jmei on Dec 16, 2013 18:18:27 GMT -5
Is Betts really that good of an athlete? I would've thought Bradley or even Margot would have been. Betts doesnt seem to have special speed and definitely isnt too strong. Seems like thats a little odd Betts did go 38 for 42 on stolen bases last year. He doesn't have that Ellsbury-esque elite raw speed, but he's definitely a plus to better runner and certainly a better athlete than Bradley (Bradley's footspeed is nothing special-- his defensive range comes from great jumps and routes). Margot is definitely a great athlete, though (I've only seen him once in person, but he had just stupid range in the outfield), and I'd have him as a slightly better athlete than Betts.
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Post by jmei on Dec 16, 2013 18:21:08 GMT -5
I'm not sure stats vs. scouts is the right characterization for the Owens debate. Both scouts and statheads are pretty divided on him. With a walk rate up over 12% he's not exactly a sabermetric darling. I'm interested in seeing the full top 100, because I want to know if they like Bradley less than I do, or they just love Owens that much. I'll stick with my original opinion. The balance of his peripherals relative to his age suggests a highly projectable sabermetric "darling". He generates a lot of swings and misses as well as poor contact. The Professor Parks review and follow up commentary suggests a bottom of the rotation starter. SABR guys don't really believe in the idea of "poor contact" and will generally evaluate pitchers solely on strikeouts, walks, and home runs (and ground ball rate). By those measures, Owens was good but not great. I really do think the idea that he's a SABR darling is misstated, and the SABR vs. scouting narrative you're drawing up for Owens isn't really the case. Some scouts like him, others (read: Parks) don't.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 16, 2013 18:24:29 GMT -5
Is Betts really that good of an athlete? I would've thought Bradley or even Margot would have been. Betts doesnt seem to have special speed and definitely isnt too strong. Seems like thats a little odd Straight from his page on this site: Have only watched him on TV twice, so that isn't much of a sample. He looked at ease at second base but there weren't any difficult chances while I was watching. He did steal 8 bases last year while only being caught twice. Read a piece recently that mentioned how there were fewer multiple-sports athletes these days. Most tend to focus on the one sport their best at, and they're encouraged to do so. Betts was good at a bunch of them. Haven't researched it, but it was probably something like basketball, football, and track. It does appear that he has is quite a good athlete. Not meant as a quibble with your post but Mookie stole 38 bases vs. only 4 CS.
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