SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
Red Sox acquire INF Jonathan Herrera for Morales, Martin
|
Post by JackieWilsonsaid on Dec 18, 2013 22:53:45 GMT -5
I agree.
Even when his results were good he seemed to miss his spots.
Herrera does have some speed it's just Coors field doesn't exactly encourage building around a bunch of silver bullets.
Also, the salary fits just about exactly into what Ben had left (leaving a significant slush fund for another Peavy like mid year pickup).
He fits comfortably on the roster, and certainly from the approach and attitude as we'll.
Outside of being overwhelmed between now and the end of spring training, there could be nothing more to see here.
|
|
|
Post by soxcentral on Dec 18, 2013 22:54:50 GMT -5
Would a good comp for Herrera be Jose Iglesias? I've never seen him play but based on everything mentioned in this thread they seem to have eerily similar skill sets. Not really at all. I'm fairly confident that Herrera will put up a .600 OPS (Iglesias may or may not), and I'm positive that Iglesias is a significantly better defender. Gotcha, thank you. I saw a theme of all glove, no power, limited plate discipline, and some speed developing here, which sounded kind of familiar.
|
|
redsox04071318champs
Veteran
Always hoping to make my handle even longer...
Posts: 15,665
Member is Online
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 18, 2013 23:08:39 GMT -5
I like this deal for the Red Sox. In theory the Sox give up two useful pitchers, but in reality, Martin would be hard-pressed to make the Sox bullpen as they have Miller, Breslow, and Britton ahead of him on the depth chart and there are others coming up behind him.
I want no part of Franklin Morales as a starting pitcher. They only did that in 2012 because they were desperate. They had few other options. It's different now as they have six starters and a few starters in the minors knocking on the door. Had Morales stayed healthy in 2012, something I doubt he can do as a starter, I think his numbers would have fallen apart. At the end he couldn't even be trusted as a LOOGY. This is because the man can't throw strikes. He has a great arm, but he never could throw strikes, still can't throw strikes, and will never throw strikes. Frankly, I'm glad he's gone.
But they actually got a useful player for him. Herrera is a switch hitting good defensive infielder who can hit a little. Most utility men are awful. Herrera isn't. He isn't an automatic out at the plate and he's competent in the field and he's a step up from Brock Holt, who probably can be a better hitter than he showed in the majors but is a major question mark defensively. Herrera has a purpose on the team. Morales doesn't and Martin probably wouldn't have gotten much of a chance.
I like this small move by Ben. It's another step forward for minimal cost.
|
|
|
Post by moonstone2 on Dec 19, 2013 0:17:59 GMT -5
I really don't know what to say about this. Both those guys throw in the upper 90s and have at least one plus plus secondary pitch. De La Rosa has two. Martin's stuff isn't in the same ball park as these guys.
|
|
|
Post by njsox on Dec 19, 2013 0:45:39 GMT -5
vid of nice play at SS mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130429&content_id=46149392¬ebook_id=46149398&vkey=notebook_col&c_id=colwww.purplerow.com/2013/2/25/4027408/monday-rockpile-a-surprising-jonathan-herrera-fact"Jonathan Herrera has been a polarizing figure here at [Rockies fan website" "Since April 9th, 2011, Jonathan Herrera has made 116 STARTS for the Rockies, and in those 116 starts, the Rockies are a .500 team. I've checked the math on this about eight times! 58 up, and 58 down. Meanwhile in the 202 games he didn't start, the Rockies went 75-127" [...] "Do the defensive metrics underrate Herrera? Is he even better with a glove than he's given credit for and silently helping the team win more games that way than anyone realizes? Does he make others around him better? Do pitchers feel more confident with him in the infield? Is the fact that he's a decent on base percentage threat enough to minimize his complete lack of power at the plate? Or is it possible that all of this, 100% of these "team records Herrera starts the game" stats are a fluke?" wow, between him and Gomes the Sox should win 120 games, won't even be fair to the competition.
|
|
|
Post by patrmac04 on Dec 19, 2013 1:00:41 GMT -5
That's a good point (especially about Ramirez and Price coming up behind him), but I'll note that I like Martin more than a lot of the guys who might be ahead of him. Maybe guys like Villareal or De La Rosa have higher upside, but they also have much lower floors, and a guy who can command a low/mid-90s fastball doesn't need much else to be a successful reliever. But I do love me some Chris Martin, probably more than most folks here. Michael Olmstead. Wow... just checked in on Olmstead and he fell off a cliff... almost like he had arm troubles... how often does a guy's WHIP double Gagne style? Sent from my SGH-T999 using proboards
|
|
|
Post by patrmac04 on Dec 19, 2013 1:06:04 GMT -5
Not really at all. I'm fairly confident that Herrera will put up a .600 OPS (Iglesias may or may not), and I'm positive that Iglesias is a significantly better defender. Gotcha, thank you. I saw a theme of all glove, no power, limited plate discipline, and some speed developing here, which sounded kind of familiar. It was more about getting a person that would play a professional level of backup third, short and second in case of injury or rookie slumps. A person that has solid but not spectacular skills like Alex Cora. Sent from my SGH-T999 using proboards
|
|
|
Post by patrmac04 on Dec 19, 2013 1:09:11 GMT -5
I like this deal for the Red Sox. In theory the Sox give up two useful pitchers, but in reality, Martin would be hard-pressed to make the Sox bullpen as they have Miller, Breslow, and Britton ahead of him on the depth chart and there are others coming up behind him. I want no part of Franklin Morales as a starting pitcher. They only did that in 2012 because they were desperate. They had few other options. It's different now as they have six starters and a few starters in the minors knocking on the door. Had Morales stayed healthy in 2012, something I doubt he can do as a starter, I think his numbers would have fallen apart. At the end he couldn't even be trusted as a LOOGY. This is because the man can't throw strikes. He has a great arm, but he never could throw strikes, still can't throw strikes, and will never throw strikes. Frankly, I'm glad he's gone. But they actually got a useful player for him. Herrera is a switch hitting good defensive infielder who can hit a little. Most utility men are awful. Herrera isn't. He isn't an automatic out at the plate and he's competent in the field and he's a step up from Brock Holt, who probably can be a better hitter than he showed in the majors but is a major question mark defensively. Herrera has a purpose on the team. Morales doesn't and Martin probably wouldn't have gotten much of a chance. I like this small move by Ben. It's another step forward for minimal cost. +1 solid post Sent from my SGH-T999 using proboards
|
|
|
Post by JackieWilsonsaid on Dec 19, 2013 6:10:57 GMT -5
Law on our side of the deal...
"Jonathan Herrera is just an extra infielder, nothing more, something the Red Sox needed but not someone the Rockies -- who still need an every-day second baseman -- are likely to miss. "
|
|
|
Post by ancientsoxfogey on Dec 19, 2013 7:40:09 GMT -5
Law on our side of the deal... "Jonathan Herrera is just an extra infielder, nothing more, something the Red Sox needed but not someone the Rockies -- who still need an every-day second baseman -- are likely to miss. " And I suppose that the opposite-side view would be that Morales and Martin are fringe major-leaguers who might be useful to the Rockies at some point, but not players that the Sox -- who have a lot of depth of clearly better or arguably more promising players in both the rotation and the bullpen -- are likely to miss.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 19, 2013 10:31:19 GMT -5
Wow... just checked in on Olmstead and he fell off a cliff... almost like he had arm troubles... how often does a guy's WHIP double Gagne style? When they aren't good to begin with?
|
|
alnipper
Veteran
Living the dream
Posts: 619
|
Post by alnipper on Dec 19, 2013 10:58:00 GMT -5
This deal sure indicates the value of a solid defensive utility infielder.
|
|
|
Post by pedey on Dec 19, 2013 11:10:58 GMT -5
This was a decent trade, although I wish the Sox could have gotten more for Morales. However, Morales was continually getting hurt when they tried to stretch him out as a starter. He's better suited as a reliever, and the Sox already have Breslow and Miller in their bullpen for lefties.
Morales being traded will allow Britton to get a chance should Breslow or Miller get hurt next year.
|
|
|
Post by jmei on Dec 19, 2013 14:04:21 GMT -5
I really don't know what to say about this. Both those guys throw in the upper 90s and have at least one plus plus secondary pitch. De La Rosa has two. Martin's stuff isn't in the same ball park as these guys. And their command isn't in the same ballpark as Martin's. Villarreal literally walked 3.8 times more batters in AAA last year than Martin. De La Rosa walked three times as many guys (albeit in a starting role) with a similar strikeout rate. Yeah, they have better stuff and thus higher upside, but if you're asking me what pitcher is going to give you better innings in 2014, I'm taking Martin.
|
|
|
Post by JackieWilsonsaid on Dec 19, 2013 14:10:24 GMT -5
I really don't know what to say about this. Both those guys throw in the upper 90s and have at least one plus plus secondary pitch. De La Rosa has two. Martin's stuff isn't in the same ball park as these guys. And their command isn't in the same ballpark as Martin's. Villarreal literally walked 3.8 times more batters in AAA last year than Martin. De La Rosa walked three times as many guys (albeit in a starting role) with a similar strikeout rate. Yeah, they have better stuff and thus higher upside, but if you're asking me what pitcher is going to give you better innings in 2014, I'm taking Martin. You may be right, but in this org, those better inning are in the Bucket, not Boston. Herrera (why do I want to call him Ephram?), fits a key role on the 2014 roster. His flexibility defensively with a much better hit tool allows the heavy lf/1b/dh skew of the bench to reasonably exist. I think we will really like what this guy provides.
|
|
|
Post by larrycook on Dec 20, 2013 8:43:23 GMT -5
I like this trade a lot. Herrera brings a decent bat against RHP and he plays solid defense. He fills an important hole in our 25 man roster. In camp he will battle Holt and may the best man win. Competition brings out the best in players.
In return we gave up a live but undisciplined arm and a minor league arm with some potential. Maybe we are overvaluing our prospects again. Got to look at it from the Rockies side as well.
This looks like a nice trade for both sides, if the arms we sent them pan out.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Dec 20, 2013 9:18:53 GMT -5
I've read here some have talked about Martin and his control. Is that just in comparison to guys like Ruby and Villereal or are we suggesting he has great control? Also, are you referring to control and command or just control? Control is nice, but can be dangerous without good command... I ask because scouting reports seem to question his ability to command things well.
|
|
|
Post by jmei on Dec 20, 2013 11:47:46 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by patrmac04 on Dec 20, 2013 12:46:22 GMT -5
Wow... just checked in on Olmstead and he fell off a cliff... almost like he had arm troubles... how often does a guy's WHIP double Gagne style? When they aren't good to begin with? I'm not a scout and was only going off stats obviously, but his numbers looked pretty great through his minor league career before last year. That said, you guys were down on him and were saying how it wasn't a big loss at the time and you were all right. Just goes to show how limited our view is when we only look at the stat sheets.
|
|
|
Post by bluechip on Dec 21, 2013 7:30:05 GMT -5
I really don't know what to say about this. Both those guys throw in the upper 90s and have at least one plus plus secondary pitch. De La Rosa has two. Martin's stuff isn't in the same ball park as these guys. And their command isn't in the same ballpark as Martin's. Villarreal literally walked 3.8 times more batters in AAA last year than Martin. De La Rosa walked three times as many guys (albeit in a starting role) with a similar strikeout rate. Yeah, they have better stuff and thus higher upside, but if you're asking me what pitcher is going to give you better innings in 2014, I'm taking Martin. That's more of an indictment of Villarreal and Rubby De La Rosa than it is a compliment to Martin. There are literally hundreds of pitchers in baseball who have better control than those guys and are more likely to contribute in 2014.
|
|
|
Post by okin15 on Dec 22, 2013 9:59:34 GMT -5
Might be a bit of an overpay but it's also a really good fit given his strength vs RHP and the RHH IF at this point. Could be optioned if they can sign Drew, and could be a nearly acceptable platoon with Holt if someone goes down for 15 days.
|
|
|