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Post by jimed14 on Aug 12, 2014 7:47:11 GMT -5
Going from JBJ to Cespedes in CF is probably similar to going from Bogaerts to Papi at SS. He gets Gomes-like jumps on the ball.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 12, 2014 7:58:39 GMT -5
wRC+ is league (season) adjusted though so being a different time doesn't matter a whole lot. There are the same # of fielding chances for SS and CF I'd guess. I don't have the average numbers on me - but the gap is actually quite large between these two. Here are a couple of players just to give you an idea: Jeter (a horrible SS with no range): 123 PO & 193 assists = 316 Bradley (a great CF with good range): 271 PO & 13 assists = 284 If you want to be more precise you can look at errors and evaluate fielding chances along with batted ball data to see the exact number, but the above should illustrate the point. There's a reason why a good fielding SS is so valuable. Based roughly on my memory fielding chances per position sort out as below: 1. 1B 2. SS 3. 2B 4. CF 5. 3B 6. LF 7. RF 8. P ...not sure where C stacks in all of this - but that's kinda it's own monster anyway. I'm sure someone will see this and give a more detailed breakdown. That's not really what I meant when I said it. I was talking about defensive value, which has SS ahead of CF with 1B least important.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 12, 2014 7:59:58 GMT -5
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 12, 2014 9:10:37 GMT -5
He gets Gomes-like jumps on the ball. That's totally ridiculous. Your tendency to compare every outfielder who isn't Jackie Bradley defensively to Jonny Gomes is getting a little tiring. I don't necessarily think Cespedes in center is a great fit, but the idea that his outfield skills are similar to Gomes - whose outfield ability consisted of taking a step then falling over - has little basis in anything.
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Post by elguapo on Aug 12, 2014 9:21:14 GMT -5
He gets Gomes-like jumps on the ball. That may be hyperbole, though I always close my eyes when the ball is hit to Gomes, so I don't have a point of comparison. Some defensive averages: Cespedes Career UZR/150LF 8.5 CF -18.8 (600 innings) Add: Career Defensive Runs Saved / YearLF: 9 CF: -26 Combined with his reported reluctance to play CF, I think the only question is RF vs LF.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 12, 2014 9:23:28 GMT -5
He gets Gomes-like jumps on the ball. That's totally ridiculous. Your tendency to compare every outfielder who isn't Jackie Bradley defensively to Jonny Gomes is getting a little tiring. I don't necessarily think Cespedes in center is a great fit, but the idea that his outfield skills are similar to Gomes - whose outfield ability consisted of taking a step then falling over - has little basis in anything. I was talking about his jumps, which are observably bad. His speed and athleticism make up for a lot. They obviously aren't similar fielders. He is not a center fielder that I want to watch.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 12, 2014 9:44:46 GMT -5
If you're the Red Sox, do you start next season with JBJ or Mookie Betts in CF for the parent club?
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Post by moonstone2 on Aug 12, 2014 13:53:50 GMT -5
He gets Gomes-like jumps on the ball. That may be hyperbole, though I always close my eyes when the ball is hit to Gomes, so I don't have a point of comparison. Some defensive averages: Cespedes Career UZR/150LF 8.5 CF -18.8 (600 innings) Add: Career Defensive Runs Saved / YearLF: 9 CF: -26 Combined with his reported reluctance to play CF, I think the only question is RF vs LF. Like you said it's only 600 innings and I believe that even the founder of UZR said you needed three seasons of data to really get a full picture. During 600 innings there just aren't enough non-routine plays to have the defensive metrics give you a full picture of how well the player has played.
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Post by moonstone2 on Aug 12, 2014 14:00:10 GMT -5
That's totally ridiculous. Your tendency to compare every outfielder who isn't Jackie Bradley defensively to Jonny Gomes is getting a little tiring. I don't necessarily think Cespedes in center is a great fit, but the idea that his outfield skills are similar to Gomes - whose outfield ability consisted of taking a step then falling over - has little basis in anything. I was talking about his jumps, which are observably bad. His speed and athleticism make up for a lot. They obviously aren't similar fielders. He is not a center fielder that I want to watch. Jim that kinda sounds like "we replaced Mo Vaughn's on base percentage."
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 12, 2014 14:34:52 GMT -5
I was talking about his jumps, which are observably bad. His speed and athleticism make up for a lot. They obviously aren't similar fielders. He is not a center fielder that I want to watch. Jim that kinda sounds like "we replaced Mo Vaughn's on base percentage." More like we replaced his walks without his bat.
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ianrs
Veteran
Posts: 2,446
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Post by ianrs on Aug 18, 2014 13:37:09 GMT -5
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Post by burythehammer on Aug 18, 2014 13:49:41 GMT -5
3 most likely CF options for 2015: 1) Mookie 2) JBJ 3) Denard Span They have some money to spend and maybe Denard Span's option doesn't get picked up by the Nationals or he is picked up and traded. It could well be option #1 or 2 at this point especially if Betts moves to 3rd. I don't see why the Sox only realistic options are rushing Betts and having JBJ keep his job. Neither of those are acceptable options for a contending team. They have Cespedes whose best position maybe CF. Why not him in CF Craig in LF and Victorino in RF with Holt and Nava in reserve? Put Betts and Bradley in AAA until they prove themselves. How many years are we talking in AAA to prove themselves? Three? Four?
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Post by prangerx on Aug 18, 2014 13:57:46 GMT -5
I don't see why the Sox only realistic options are rushing Betts and having JBJ keep his job. Neither of those are acceptable options for a contending team. They have Cespedes whose best position maybe CF. Why not him in CF Craig in LF and Victorino in RF with Holt and Nava in reserve? Put Betts and Bradley in AAA until they prove themselves. How many years are we talking in AAA to prove themselves? Three? Four? Betts has barely played in Triple A. Bradley has had a lot of chances, but id argue that the strong spring training a few years ago hurt his development. As he was fast tracked to the big leagues too soon. Its a troublesome trend that has seemed to plague a lot of our recent prospects. Especially when you look back to the last class who had 500 abs at triple a before being called up and mostly having success.
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Post by elguapo on Aug 18, 2014 14:14:59 GMT -5
Bradley has had a lot of chances, but id argue that the strong spring training a few years ago hurt his development. As he was fast tracked to the big leagues too soon. Its a troublesome trend that has seemed to plague a lot of our recent prospects. Especially when you look back to the last class who had 500 abs at triple a before being called up and mostly having success. Bradley's cameo at the beginning of last season aside, let's have a little comparison: Ellsbury, age 23, 401 AAA plate appearances, 298 / 360 / 380 / 740 (strong performance in late season callup) Bradley, age 23, 374 AAA plate appearances, 275 / 374 / 469 / 842 Each player's development is different, and in Bradley's case he obviously got messed up mechanically and has to work to get back in gear.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Aug 18, 2014 14:42:03 GMT -5
This does make a little sense. A while back, after he'd gotten hot, they were sitting him down sometimes right after a two-hit game. That was probably because they had outfielders they needed to play including Gomes. After a few games where he looks like he's finding a rhythm, rather than do that again, he'll get playing time in AAA. Hopefully, that's all for the good.
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Post by godot on Aug 18, 2014 14:55:29 GMT -5
That is really stretching it, groping for a reason. Sometimes are place order into a situation when in fact it is senseless, some random act by idiots . Heck, I could suggest it is punishment of sorts with a straight face.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Aug 18, 2014 14:59:13 GMT -5
That is really stretching it, groping for a reason. Sometimes are place order into a situation when in fact it is senseless, some random act by idiots . Heck, I could suggest it is punishment of sorts with a straight face. Like I said, I think it makes sense. There was a bit of head-scratching on the board when they kept sitting him after he heated up earlier in the season. I think this may be a way around that. Also whoever said Cespedes is a natural centerfielder hasn't been watching. His weakness is the routes he take. Great arm, but often a poor approach.
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Post by jrffam05 on Aug 18, 2014 14:59:59 GMT -5
As a JBJ supporter I really don't mind the move relative to him. Also as a Betts supporter I hope he plays every day, or he should be back in AAA.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 18, 2014 15:01:01 GMT -5
Kid has a good day at the plate and was hitting .313 in his last 7 (obviously SSS), but that's when they decide to send him down. Not when he's going 0 for 30, but when he's 5 for 16 with two walks. It's a lost season anyways, just play him.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 18, 2014 15:06:30 GMT -5
That is really stretching it, groping for a reason. Sometimes are place order into a situation when in fact it is senseless, some random act by idiots . Heck, I could suggest it is punishment of sorts with a straight face. Like I said, I think it makes sense. There was a bit of head-scratching on the board when they kept sitting him after he heated up earlier in the season. I think this may be a way around that. Also whoever said Cespedes is a natural centerfielder hasn't been watching. His weakness is the routes he take. Great arm, but often a poor approach. Agree on Cespedes. He's clunky out there. I'd actually keep him in LF over moving him to RF for these very reasons (that is if they decide not to move him in the off-season).
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Post by jclmontana on Aug 18, 2014 15:16:57 GMT -5
This may be more about Betts and rewarding him for an incredible season while also giving him an extended audition. What is impressive to this lay-person is that JBJ has not had any disruption in production after coming back to AAA. It seems as if players often struggle with being demoted, and Mookie keeps on rolling along.
JBJ seems to have specific work to do and adjustments to make. And recent SSS notwithstanding, his offensive production really does scream demotion.
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Post by bettsonmookie on Aug 18, 2014 15:24:52 GMT -5
This move strikes me to be equal parts Mookie and JBJ.
1. Reward Mookie with an MLB audition 2. Try to give Jackie even the smallest of confidence boosts going into the offseason
I see JBJ as one of the most important players in the organization, and I believe it should be a top priority getting his offensive struggles under control moving into 2015. I think the worst thing that JBJ could do this offseason is dwell upon a year of hitting .200. Hopefully he can pick up the production a bit in AAA and enter the offseason with a bit more confidence in his bat than he probably has at the moment.
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Post by dcsoxfan on Aug 18, 2014 15:25:01 GMT -5
This move would have made a lot more sense two weeks ago when there was still enough of the AAA season left for Bradley to actually work on things.
Feels a bit haphazard now.
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Post by jrffam05 on Aug 18, 2014 15:31:16 GMT -5
Who would be better in CF (defensive question only) Kemp or Cespedes?
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Post by Oregon Norm on Aug 18, 2014 15:37:06 GMT -5
Who would be better in CF (defensive question only) Kemp or Cespedes? That question is offensive no matter how you try to dress it up.
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