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Jackie Bradley Jr. - does the glove outweigh the bat?
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 10, 2014 13:15:36 GMT -5
You never stop learning. Can someone tell me why Bradley has such excellent defensive skills and instincts, which indicate a high level of athleticism and processing skills can not even be adequate at hitting. What are the skill differences, if any and if so, how is Bradley lacking in one and not the other? And just don't throw out examples of excellent defense players who never became good hitters. It does not explain, but perhaps suggest their is a difference. You realize that there's a negative correlation between good fielding skills and good hitting skills, right? That's why the positions that require the best fielding skills are the ones that hit the least (CF, SS, 2B, C). If ability to field had anything to do with ability to hit, Jose Iglesias would hit like David Ortiz and vice-versa. They're just two very different skill sets, and the player who can do both at a high level are the Mike Trouts of the world; the rarest of the rare.
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Post by godot on Aug 10, 2014 13:57:00 GMT -5
You never stop learning. Can someone tell me why Bradley has such excellent defensive skills and instincts, which indicate a high level of athleticism and processing skills can not even be adequate at hitting. What are the skill differences, if any and if so, how is Bradley lacking in one and not the other? And just don't throw out examples of excellent defense players who never became good hitters. It does not explain, but perhaps suggest their is a difference. You realize that there's a negative correlation between good fielding skills and good hitting skills, right? That's why the positions that require the best fielding skills are the ones that hit the least (CF, SS, 2B, C). If ability to field had anything to do with ability to hit, Jose Iglesias would hit like David Ortiz and vice-versa. They're just two very different skill sets, and the player who can do both at a high level are the Mike Trouts of the world; the rarest of the rare. Egad, you did not explain much of anything, and the negative correlation you throw out is sloppy and definitely not any kind of "law". as your statement suggest. You can find a number of players in the position you noted that were also good offensive players. Unless you can explain in what sense that they are very different skills sets, your statement does not say much. Oh well
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Post by terriblehondo on Aug 10, 2014 16:16:10 GMT -5
NO! 1st I love JBJ wanted him drafted because I thought he was a phenom in center. I did think the bat would play though. I am a defense up the middle guy so I want to see him everyday in Center. But you cannot strikeout every 3rd at bat. I would give him until the end of the year to try and figure out how to put the ball in play. To watch him continually try and pull pitches drives me nuts. Make him watch tape of Jeter or Boggs for hours on end and learn to hit the other way. If he cannot do it then he is a 4th outfielder. Playing every time I had the lead late. Because from what little I have seen of Betts he is going to hit and he will take the job. He reminds me of McCutchen.
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Post by grandsalami on Aug 10, 2014 19:18:22 GMT -5
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Post by mattpicard on Aug 10, 2014 19:25:51 GMT -5
You realize that there's a negative correlation between good fielding skills and good hitting skills, right? That's why the positions that require the best fielding skills are the ones that hit the least (CF, SS, 2B, C). If ability to field had anything to do with ability to hit, Jose Iglesias would hit like David Ortiz and vice-versa. They're just two very different skill sets, and the player who can do both at a high level are the Mike Trouts of the world; the rarest of the rare. Egad, you did not explain much of anything, and the negative correlation you throw out is sloppy and definitely not any kind of "law". as your statement suggest. You can find a number of players in the position you noted that were also good offensive players. Unless you can explain in what sense that they are very different skills sets, your statement does not say much. Oh well I'm not sure what you're looking for here. It's a massive leap to say that generally outstanding athleticism plus an elite specific talent (in this case playing the outfield) implies you have the ability to become better at other specific athletic skills. Is Lebron James bound to be successful at hitting baseballs well just because he shows incredible athleticism and coordination as a basketball player? Swinging a bat to hit a tiny object traveling at an extremely high velocity and running around to catch that object 250 feet away just aren't all that similar. There's no "law," it's just hard to be good at several different things. Baseball scouts evaluate five distinct tools for a reason (hitting, power, running, fielding, and throwing), and it's exceptionally rare you find players with four or five top tier tools. So saying Bradley Jr. is wizard in the field and thus should have the physical and mental ability to be good at something entirely different just doesn't make any sense to me.
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Post by cardsox on Aug 10, 2014 19:59:48 GMT -5
My biggest issue with all his strikeouts is that he never appears to change his approach with two strikes. Choke up. Cut down the swing. Something. It's not like he is hitting HRs so no benefit for taking a big hack.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Aug 10, 2014 20:17:24 GMT -5
Been saying it all year. Choke up and go the other way. Also, might allow him to get the bat head out front quicker and get to that inside fastball that he can't get to.
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danr
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Post by danr on Aug 10, 2014 20:33:27 GMT -5
4 Ks in 4 ABs. He needs a makeover.
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Post by ray88h66 on Aug 10, 2014 20:42:04 GMT -5
To the original question, I don't know. I'm a big pitching and d guy but it's hard to justify 175 k's and no power. At their current pace JBJ and Xander will have over 300 k's combined. Iggy got plenty of grief here but he got the bat on the ball.
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Post by godot on Aug 10, 2014 20:51:17 GMT -5
Egad, you did not explain much of anything, and the negative correlation you throw out is sloppy and definitely not any kind of "law". as your statement suggest. You can find a number of players in the position you noted that were also good offensive players. Unless you can explain in what sense that they are very different skills sets, your statement does not say much. Oh well I'm not sure what you're looking for here. It's a massive leap to say that generally outstanding athleticism plus an elite specific talent (in this case playing the outfield) implies you have the ability to become better at other specific athletic skills. Is Lebron James bound to be successful at hitting baseballs well just because he shows incredible athleticism and coordination as a basketball player? Swinging a bat to hit a tiny object traveling at an extremely high velocity and running around to catch that object 250 feet away just aren't all that similar. There's no "law," it's just hard to be good at several different things. Baseball scouts evaluate five distinct tools for a reason (hitting, power, running, fielding, and throwing), and it's exceptionally rare you find players with four or five top tier tools. So saying Bradley Jr. is wizard in the field and thus should have the physical and mental ability to be good at something entirely different just doesn't make any sense to me. Good logic, the difference between the two goals is a good starting point. I can see why it does not follow that if a player is very good at defense they may not have the same competency with the bat, but still many do. Why? Do the two activities involved significantly different physical and psycho-physical skills, and what are the differences? Are the differences based on the processing skills for pitch recognition? Is it a question that they worked more on one than an other or have more confidence in one than another? A position like catcher can impede development of hitting skills and competencies, but we see many players who play second, short, or center field do well at both, something that fenwaythehardway does not seem to see or recognize. This is anecdotal, but recall Dustin saying that Jose should hit because of his defensive skills ( eye-hand coordination). Maybe a confidence builder statement? Really don't know but just curious, and if the skills are comparable, then here is hope for Jr.. The article on Cameron's assessment of Bradley's troubles was illuminating though.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 10, 2014 23:01:46 GMT -5
Does JBJ's glove outweigh his bat? I'd say no. At this point he's no more than an excellent late game defensive replacement.
I cannot figure out why he's even in the majors at this point. What is he gaining? Experience at going 0-35? The Red Sox hitting coach situation has been unsettled this season. I would think JBJ's confidence and coaching situation would actually be improved if he went to Pawtucket.
I think he and Betts should switch places. Betts obviously doesn't have Bradley's defensive capabilities but in time Betts could be a solid CF. But his bat has a chance to be night and day better than Bradley's.
I had thought that Bradley would hit about .250 this year and eventually wind up a .270 hitter with a good amount of walks and about ten homers per year.
Now I'm not sure this guy will ever hit. He has no power and strikes out way, way too often. And he's getting worse, which is a hard thing to do when you consider how bad a start he got off to.
Stats in AA and AAA should make it easier to forecast the kind of stats a player should put up in the majors, but Bradley is worse than projected and might be one of those guys who won't be as good as the projections.
All I can say is that in 2014 Jackie Bradley Jr is not a major league hitter and is a huge step down from the production they were getting out of Ellsbury. All I can say for 2015 is that, barring a Castillo signing, the Sox should make CF Mookie Betts' job to lose.
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Post by elguapo on Aug 11, 2014 8:42:21 GMT -5
Obviously JBJ is messed up at the plate and has been trying different stances, et cetera, which makes it foolish to project his current results going forward.
It's not like the kid can't hit - he has the tools to do so, the track record to show it, and the makeup to get the most out of what he has - but obviously he needs work on his swing to get consistent mechanics that he is comfortable with.
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Post by godot on Aug 11, 2014 9:11:26 GMT -5
He has a great arm. so maybe try pitching. He hits like one now.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 11, 2014 9:43:42 GMT -5
JBJ's swing is all screwed up at this point. He's doing the toe-tap which isn't working for him. I saw an AB yesterday where it looked like the ball was in the catchers glove before he started swinging at a 90 mph fastball. His hands are moving all over the place and he's not even ready to swing when he has to. So much movement doesn't work for him at all. The batting coaches haven't done him many favors. But he has shown he could hit all the way through the minors and I think he can find it again. I don't even think he could hit right now if he were in AA, his swing is that messed up.
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Post by semperfisox on Aug 11, 2014 9:58:28 GMT -5
Just amazing how he breezed through the minors. The majors has turned him into a head case when hitting.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Aug 11, 2014 10:05:04 GMT -5
Obviously JBJ is messed up at the plate and has been trying different stances, et cetera, which makes it foolish to project his current results going forward. It's not like the kid can't hit - he has the tools to do so, the track record to show it, and the makeup to get the most out of what he has - but obviously he needs work on his swing to get consistent mechanics that he is comfortable with. Things are never as good as they look when you're going good, and never as bad as they look when you're going bad. JBJ is a far better hitter than he is showing, but he is in a very bad place right now and he needs to somehow find a way to clear his head and hit the reset button. Trying to get where he's going from where he's at right now is probably an exercise in futility.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 11, 2014 10:12:15 GMT -5
Oh here we go again. It's all mental. It's a good thing he's not as mental on defense. He must be a completely different person out there in the field.
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Post by cologneredsox on Aug 11, 2014 10:38:30 GMT -5
Oh here we go again. It's all mental. It's a good thing he's not as mental on defense. He must be a completely different person out there in the field. Not to say it is like that, but would that be really surprising? He has as many reasons to be very self-confident in the field as being totally lost at the plate. While there is so much more to hitting than only the mental side I guess you can't overestimate the impact on your results if you're confident in your abilites or the opposite of it. He is due for a restart, to judge him based on the current results seems to be as wrong as believing his spring stats from '13 were any indication of his abilities at the plate...
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Post by Gwell55 on Aug 11, 2014 10:45:04 GMT -5
Oh here we go again. It's all mental. It's a good thing he's not as mental on defense. He must be a completely different person out there in the field. It may not be mental is a possibility for sure. However it does lead to a confidence level and in the field he looks relaxed and full of confidence when he makes those long runs to catch a screamer out there. At the plate he doesn't appear relaxed and confident isn't an understatement. That alone effects his hitting. To me you can bet he is getting tons of advise from the players and coaches but trying to input to much at once may be causing a lot of his disastrous season as it looks to be getting worse and worse. As to the physical aspect of his hitting, the way he is getting those jumps in the field and the amount of running shows he isn't to hurt ... doesn't that mean his decline is other than totally a physical problem?
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Post by widewordofsport on Aug 11, 2014 10:56:42 GMT -5
Lots of things to think about up at the plate, lots of changes you can make to parts of your swing, just like golf. Gotta recognize pitches, think through at bats... It's very much mental. If someone has the physical tools to hit, it's a matter of combining mental and physical together.
If it's not mental, you're saying he doesn't have the hand-eye or some other skill to be a hitter. Which I don't believe.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 11, 2014 11:03:21 GMT -5
His swing is all screwed up. That's not mental. Being confident isn't going to fix his swing and neither is being mentally strong.
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Post by terriblehondo on Aug 11, 2014 11:34:31 GMT -5
His swing is all screwed up. That's not mental. Being confident isn't going to fix his swing and neither is being mentally strong. A perfect candidate for the Lau/Hriniak style. No power to kill and all he has to do is cut the stikeouts down enough to hit .240 and he can start in center for 10 years. Up the middle and opposite field inside out evr
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steveofbradenton
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Post by steveofbradenton on Aug 11, 2014 12:13:30 GMT -5
Does JBJ's glove outweigh his bat? I'd say no. At this point he's no more than an excellent late game defensive replacement. I cannot figure out why he's even in the majors at this point. What is he gaining? Experience at going 0-35? The Red Sox hitting coach situation has been unsettled this season. I would think JBJ's confidence and coaching situation would actually be improved if he went to Pawtucket. I think he and Betts should switch places. Betts obviously doesn't have Bradley's defensive capabilities but in time Betts could be a solid CF. But his bat has a chance to be night and day better than Bradley's.I had thought that Bradley would hit about .250 this year and eventually wind up a .270 hitter with a good amount of walks and about ten homers per year. Now I'm not sure this guy will ever hit. He has no power and strikes out way, way too often. And he's getting worse, which is a hard thing to do when you consider how bad a start he got off to. Stats in AA and AAA should make it easier to forecast the kind of stats a player should put up in the majors, but Bradley is worse than projected and might be one of those guys who won't be as good as the projections. All I can say is that in 2014 Jackie Bradley Jr is not a major league hitter and is a huge step down from the production they were getting out of Ellsbury. All I can say for 2015 is that, barring a Castillo signing, the Sox should make CF Mookie Betts' job to lose. I would think for the next 3 weeks (the length of the AAA season) this would be a really good idea. Let Jackie go down to Pawtucket and tinker with his swing and maybe even listen to their batting coach (it couldn't be any worse). Less pressure. Play everyday. AND then be added in September when the roster can be expanded. Plus we place Betts in center everyday and see if he may be the answer. Allowing Jackie Bradley Jr. to keep coming to bat and having days like yesterday (4 Abs and 4 K's) makes no sense. Let him go down for 3 weeks out of the lime-light and then come on Sept 1.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Aug 11, 2014 12:14:36 GMT -5
Lots of things to think about up at the plate, lots of changes you can make to parts of your swing, just like golf. Gotta recognize pitches, think through at bats... It's very much mental. If someone has the physical tools to hit, it's a matter of combining mental and physical together. If it's not mental, you're saying he doesn't have the hand-eye or some other skill to be a hitter. Which I don't believe. Interesting the comparison to golf. This past Friday I took my 13-year-old grandson out to play golf. From the tees and the fairways he had a terrible day. And the more and more frustrated he became, the worse he got. I know he can do better -- I've SEEN him do better. But on the other hand, I noticed a couple of things in his chipping and putting that were easy fixes, and his play around the greens, which has ordinarily been a problem for him, all of a sudden came together. His tempo was great on chips of all sorts and everything inside 10 feet was either in or on the edge of the hole. It was as if I was watching a schizophrenic -- ready to chew nails out on the fairways; all smiles once he got within pitching distance of the green. Yes, I believe success at ANY endeavor that requires concentration depends to a large degree on one's mental state. You don't focus with your eyes, ears or tongue. You focus with your mind.
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ianrs
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Post by ianrs on Aug 11, 2014 12:56:15 GMT -5
Mike hops aboard the mental train as well. I think that you can get in your head in baseball, but thats a result, not a cause, of struggles. The cause of his struggles, as jimed points out, is a seriously noisy swing.
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