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Post by James Dunne on Jun 11, 2014 15:07:13 GMT -5
Is there a trade from 1985 that still grinds your gears? Still upset about Rudy Pemberton not getting more of a chance (I'm guilty on this one)? Simply want to reminisce about that time you saw Pedro Martinez or Luis Tiant or Bill Monbouquette at Fenway when you were 15? Here's the place for some Red Sox history discussion.
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 11, 2014 15:18:26 GMT -5
I was motivated to start the thread from this post: James, In a sense you are correct in that the Bagwell trade was his lone disaster. However, Lou Gorman's priorities left me uncomfortable in that he was not beyond trading high ceiling talent for shorter term gain. Although he didn't amount to anything, Jeff Sellers who was traded for Nick Esasky had tremendous stuff- people may recall his near no-hitter in his last game for the Sox- and then his arm burnt out after the trade ending his career. Gorman came within a hair of dumping a young Mo Vaugn for a close to washed up Sid Fernandez.. his mindset made it inevitable that he'd be burned big-time, which of course he was. I rejoiced when the Sox brought on Duquette, and both he and his predecessors have been obviously highly intelligent and have an excellent track record in terms of rarely having the young talent they traded to persue post-season coming back to bite them. In fairness to Gorman, he was a wonderful person and only after retiring admitted the pressure of the 'sox nation drought creating this motivation to win EVERY Year. Disagree totally on the Sellers trade. He had an electric arm, but he still hadn't done anything with it by the time of that deal. His strikeout and walk numbers were terrible not just in his major league stints, but in the minors as well. Beyond that, he never pitched in the majors again after the deal, so it's hard to criticize Gorman for trading him at the time. On top of that, they got a tremendous year from Nick Esasky. Though they lost him to the Braves in free agency, the comp pick turned into Frankie Rodriguez, who Duquette dealt for Rick Aguilera. The Benzinger/Rob Murphy component of the deal was probably a wash. Murphy was very good in '89 but pitched badly in '90. The deal was sensible at the time and hindsight proved the Red Sox to be pretty definite winners. I've heard the Vaughn-for-Fernandez legend, but I find it hard to believe. And anyway, he didn't pull the trigger so it's hard to crush him too much for it. Gorman did admit to feeling a lot of pressure to win in the moment, especially while Jean Yawkey was alive. He got killed at the end of his term for player development, but his draft record ended up being a lot stronger than Duquette's, who missed pretty much every pick after Nomar. I was excited when they hired Duquette too, as he seemed to take a more analytical approach to the job. However, the application of those analytics seemed to escape him. He would sign players who showed great statistical promise, but then cycle through them very quickly. Guys like Matt Stairs, Rudy Pemberton, and Dwayne Hosey, for example. He was too hyper with the transaction button, and not a good communicator. Despite his flaws, I think Duquette's first few years as GM were pretty solid. Everything went downhill, seemingly, after he let Mo Vaughn go and stated that Jose Offerman could "replace his on-base capabilities." He turned out to be correct to let Vaughn go, but the media killed him at the time, and he seemed to be operating the rest of his tenure like a GM on the hot seat. He traded a bunch of moderately talented players for players who gave them nothing - Rob Ramsay for Butch Huskey, Lew Ford for Hector Carrasco, Matt Kinney and John Barnes for Orlando Merced and Greg Swindell, Chris Reitsma for Dante Bichette. At the end, he was basically the desperate flailing GM that people seem to remember Lou Gorman as. |
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 11, 2014 15:57:47 GMT -5
Carlton Fisk and Bruce Hurst. *grumble*
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jun 22, 2014 21:29:18 GMT -5
Being hyper with the transaction button and poring over statistics is part of what made him a good GM, long before Billy Beane burst onto the scene..
He doesn't get enough credit for digging around and trying out "waiver wire refugees" the way he did, or giving up little to nothing for guys (O'Leary, Daubach, many more) who helped the team. Signing FA's who had been hurt after looking hard over medicals to team friendly deals (Saberhagen). He was very smart, just had the rotten luck of being in a town that had not won a WS in nearly a century and would go ballistic with horrid writers/media scrutiny.
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Post by ray88h66 on Jul 14, 2014 15:30:44 GMT -5
Watching Holt start at every position but catcher and pitcher this year brings back memories of Yaz. He never did it in one year and wasn't as good with the glove as Holt in the infield, but he would play anywhere if the team asked him. Even after he was a veteran not playing for a job. He was the oldest player to start a game in center at the time, can't remember if he was 42 or 43 when he did it. That record may still stand. He also played first one night with a 103 temp when he was suppose to DH because the first baseman was hurting.
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Post by justabitoutside on Apr 18, 2017 0:14:06 GMT -5
Sorry for this offshoot, but it is a little bit about Red Sox history. I am presently without work and caught today's Patriots Day game, and then the Bruins vs Senators.
Sometime around 1979- 1983, I was lucky to see an April day game with the Sox - but I don't think it was a Patriots Day game. *I do think it was very cold, but lets not try to triangulate weather into the equation* Then my Dad and I were gifted tickets to a Bruins vs Quebec Nordiques playoff game that night. My first hockey game. I thought both Boston teams won, but ... using baseball almanac dotcom and hockey-reference dotcom, I have some guesses on the date, but can't figure what Red Sox games were day games. I could at least look up which days were Patriots Day but nothing matches up. Anyone know a historical site that mentions day or night games?
(This is gonna drive me crazy btw. If I was working I'd have other crap on my mind.)
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Post by James Dunne on Apr 18, 2017 8:50:14 GMT -5
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