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8/10 ML Gameday Thread: Henry Owens pitches for Pawtucket
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Post by jchang on Aug 10, 2014 20:18:42 GMT -5
I can see Ball working his way into the top 10 sometime next year. I should be able to catch some of his games in Salem. will speculate then.
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Post by larrycook on Aug 10, 2014 20:24:56 GMT -5
Sounds like exactly the two things Owens needs to work on in Triple-A: fastball command and third pitch. Yeah, and points out what could be a key issue going forward with Owens ... even if he refines his curve to be more consistent, there aren't many guys whose curves are there for them every time out. Owens is going to need a strategy to pitch when his curve isn't there that day (a fourth pitch?). I think the cutter would be the perfect complimentary pitch to his current repertoire.
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Post by grangerdanger413 on Aug 10, 2014 20:30:00 GMT -5
I think Owens needs another fastball type pitch IMO. Maybe to increase his chance of fooling more bats when he changes speeds.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Aug 10, 2014 20:50:10 GMT -5
I think Owens needs another fastball type pitch IMO. Maybe to increase his chance of fooling more bats when he changes speeds. Welcome to the board. That notion of another pitch has been thrown around a bit. I'm not certain what type of fastball he throws, but I'll bet there are people who've seen him who could give you an idea, though.
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Post by widewordofsport on Aug 10, 2014 21:35:49 GMT -5
The two things Owens could do to push that ceiling to a 1/2 type (Lester type, who wasn't quite an 'ace' by most accounts) would be velocity on the FB and some sort of slider or cutter as a 4th pitch. He's made it pretty clear he's going to sit 90-92, and I really don't think he'll be the 95 that some people thought he'd grow into.
If his curve was better, a cutter would be nice (think Beckett, IIRC), but I think he's really going to need a new true breaking pitch.
Edit: I hope that makes sense... no promises.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Aug 10, 2014 22:02:05 GMT -5
The two things Owens could do to push that ceiling to a 1/2 type (Lester type, who wasn't quite an 'ace' by most accounts) would be velocity on the FB and some sort of slider or cutter as a 4th pitch. He's made it pretty clear he's going to sit 90-92, and I really don't think he'll be the 95 that some people thought he'd grow into. If his curve was better, a cutter would be nice (think Beckett, IIRC), but I think he's really going to need a new true breaking pitch. Edit: I hope that makes sense... no promises. Well here's the thing: the problem with the fastball isn't JUST that it lacks velocity. It's that it lacks velocity and he doesn't command it particularly well. You can make up for poor velo with command, but he can't do that either. It's also not that he needs a fourth pitch. He needs a third pitch. The other night, when the curve was on in his AAA debut, it showed how he could potentially push into the upper stretches of a realistic projection for him. However, he needs that curve all the time. The point of adding the "fourth pitch" would be for it to really be the third pitch because his curve can't be that. A "fourth pitch" to be a show-me offering is really a luxury given what else he needs to work on more. That said, adding the plus pitch he needs at this stage isn't impossible. I'll bring up the textbook example of Jonathan Papelbon's splitter, which he learned from Schilling the spring training before he made his MLB debut. If Schilling never teaches Papelbon that pitch, he has a vastly different MLB career. The problem, however, is that you can never reasonably project a guy to learn a pitch that late in their career that becomes their second-best pitch.
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Post by larrycook on Aug 10, 2014 22:08:30 GMT -5
Apparently the cutter is an easy pitch to learn, as opposed to the slider which takes longer to master.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 10, 2014 22:13:03 GMT -5
Internet finally back, can't say I disagree with any of the above comments, he's just turned 22, he's not a finished prospect. Since the earliest we would ever see him in Boston is mid-June next year, I'd expect that the remainder of the season will be devoted to the curve which can be plus at times but is obviously inconsistent. If he picks up a fourth pitch, I'd expect him to start on that next year, same basic progression as Ranaudo's slider. To me, improved fastball command is just a normal progression of rinse and repeat, his command isn't bad in the overall picture, it's not a major concern to me at this point in his development.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,097
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Post by cdj on Aug 10, 2014 22:22:14 GMT -5
So when are we moving Ball to the OF again?
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Post by widewordofsport on Aug 10, 2014 22:27:08 GMT -5
In my mind I was thinking the pitch he adds is the important one, and let him keep the curve as a 4th if he wants. He's got time, and it's why even as a '3' projection, it's easy to dream on a 1-2 ceiling, simply because being around the veteran leadership like Lester, Lackey, and Peavy,* he might learn something exciting.
*I guess during 2013 WS reunions?
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Post by widewordofsport on Aug 10, 2014 22:29:45 GMT -5
So when are we moving Ball to the OF again? Next year when he starts struggling again in Salem. I'll be interested if the brutal scouting reports on him have changed with his results. A 'good arm speed, plus athleticism, repeats delivery/arm slot' report would go a long way to have me believing in him for the first time.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 10, 2014 22:30:21 GMT -5
I'm hoping that Ball will keep pitching well of course but, on the other hand, I'm also hoping that Ball starts the year in Greenville next year. He's young enough that it won't impact his timeline and I'm a big fan of Paul Abbott the Drive pitching coach.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 10, 2014 23:38:16 GMT -5
Jim Callis ?@jimcallismlb 51m Love Bradley's defense but Betts, easily. @billdatdude: Mookie Betts or Jackie Bradley Jr redsoxJim Callis ?@jimcallismlb 51m Ceiling = all-star. Not hard to envision him becoming solid regular. @notloc0018: what is Manuel Margot's ceiling? redsox
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 11, 2014 9:26:05 GMT -5
So when are we moving Ball to the OF again? After his next bad inning.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Aug 11, 2014 13:11:59 GMT -5
The two things Owens could do to push that ceiling to a 1/2 type (Lester type, who wasn't quite an 'ace' by most accounts) would be velocity on the FB and some sort of slider or cutter as a 4th pitch. He's made it pretty clear he's going to sit 90-92, and I really don't think he'll be the 95 that some people thought he'd grow into. If his curve was better, a cutter would be nice (think Beckett, IIRC), but I think he's really going to need a new true breaking pitch. Edit: I hope that makes sense... no promises. Well here's the thing: the problem with the fastball isn't JUST that it lacks velocity. It's that it lacks velocity and he doesn't command it particularly well. You can make up for poor velo with command, but he can't do that either. It's also not that he needs a fourth pitch. He needs a third pitch. The other night, when the curve was on in his AAA debut, it showed how he could potentially push into the upper stretches of a realistic projection for him. However, he needs that curve all the time. The point of adding the "fourth pitch" would be for it to really be the third pitch because his curve can't be that. A "fourth pitch" to be a show-me offering is really a luxury given what else he needs to work on more. That said, adding the plus pitch he needs at this stage isn't impossible. I'll bring up the textbook example of Jonathan Papelbon's splitter, which he learned from Schilling the spring training before he made his MLB debut. If Schilling never teaches Papelbon that pitch, he has a vastly different MLB career. The problem, however, is that you can never reasonably project a guy to learn a pitch that late in their career that becomes their second-best pitch. Well, I'm not sure it's so much a question of third/fourth ... going back to what I said, I think the curveball's a uniquely difficult pitch to throw, and even guys who depend on their curve don't always have it. Pedro had some games where he didn't really have his curve, but his fastball/changeup combo was so outlandishly good, he could dominate just with that. I used to love to watch David Wells pitch, and he repeated his delivery as well as anyone I've ever seen (he was a great athlete), and he didn't have his top curve all the time ... but, man, that guy could command the baseball, even when hammered, so he could get away with it. If Hank commanded his fastball, he could probably get away with battling through some games with that, his changeup and just a show-me curve. But I don't know if he'll ever have *that* kind of command. And I just think that if he had a fourth pitch (cutter seems like the easiest one to think of), he could have more options on the days his curve isn't quite there. On the days he's really on with his curveball, he'll be a very, very good pitcher, probably already is. But a lot of guys can be good when all of their pitches are working ... the thing that separates the really quality starting pitchers from the rest is what they can do when they don't have all of them on the same day.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Aug 11, 2014 13:51:06 GMT -5
Well the difference here, to me, isn't a matter of whether or not Owens has the curve going on a particular day, but rather whether his curve, when he does "have it," will even be a major league average pitch. The jury is out on that, I think.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Aug 11, 2014 16:28:46 GMT -5
Fair enough ... I'm a little more optimistic about that score but, I guess, a little less optimistic that's an answer in and of itself.
btw, saw your tweet, Cleveland Park's a nice part of town ...
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