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Post by tonyc on Nov 16, 2014 15:56:19 GMT -5
That's right re: no guarantee of performance going up when weight goes down- those of us who've been here a while can recall the exact opposite- George Scott at 6'3" and 320 lbs in '77 hitting about 36 homers, then losing the weight and the power together.. one of the more amusing plays was when the pitcher threw an errant pickoff with him manning first and Dave Kingman (with the Yankees at the time) who went 6'6" 280 and Scott scrambling and jumping all over each other. Still Rue the day the Redsox blundered by picking Bob Bailey over Kingman in the waiver draft at that time- every time Kingman fouled off a ball it skied over the monster in that series.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Nov 16, 2014 21:40:21 GMT -5
I'll always remember The Boomer never taking of his warmup jacket the entire ST of both 78 and 79 he showed up so heavy both ST and was trying desperately to lose the weight. He would take fungoes after games with it on even play some home ST wearing the thing and in the boiling Florida sun? THAT was desperation for Scott. He was showing up really large those 2 seasons.
He was wearing that jacket during the ill fated senior league during the latter part of the 80's also, though of course that didn't matter, just his own health of course.
Another issue for 77-78 with Scott was his glove was really slipping.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 17, 2014 13:41:33 GMT -5
That's right re: no guarantee of performance going up when weight goes down- those of us who've been here a while can recall the exact opposite- George Scott at 6'3" and 320 lbs in '77 hitting about 36 homers, then losing the weight and the power together.. one of the more amusing plays was when the pitcher threw an errant pickoff with him manning first and Dave Kingman (with the Yankees at the time) who went 6'6" 280 and Scott scrambling and jumping all over each other. Still Rue the day the Redsox blundered by picking Bob Bailey over Kingman in the waiver draft at that time- every time Kingman fouled off a ball it skied over the monster in that series. I remember reading about the "George Scott diet" in Bill Lee's book, "The Wrong Stuff". Lee said the diet was guaranteed to make you lose numbers everywhere. Why in the world did they trade a young Cecil Cooper for Scott (and Carbo)?
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Post by youngbillrussell on Nov 17, 2014 17:00:09 GMT -5
Pablo Sandoval was at Logan airport earlier today and now I guess he is at Fenway
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 17, 2014 18:28:00 GMT -5
It was widely reported he was meeting with Boston this week.
This third base market is depressing. I wouldn't touch it.
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Post by mredsox89 on Nov 17, 2014 20:18:35 GMT -5
I imagine I'm not the only one hoping he leaves Boston without a deal and finalizes something with SF?
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Post by tonyc on Nov 17, 2014 20:21:44 GMT -5
Indeed Sox champs, I loved Cooper- hit over .300 at every level in the minors, great bat, it was stupid. Dumping Oglivie not great either, Cooper was maybe their worst move until Bagwell- but that had good Karma, because I felt Gorman was not going to win a WS and Duquette could, and that caused his pink slip.
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Post by mgoetze on Nov 17, 2014 21:45:39 GMT -5
I imagine I'm not the only one hoping he leaves Boston without a deal and finalizes something with SF? Nope, given the projected contracts I'd rather have Headley.
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Post by jmei on Nov 17, 2014 22:03:05 GMT -5
That Martin contract wasn't too far out of left field. MLBTR guessed 5/$72.5m and others were in the vicinity.
My guess for Headley had been 4/$60m. Maybe that gets bumped up to 4/$70m or so, but I'd rather have that than the 6/$110m or so that Sandoval is going to take.
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Post by mredsox89 on Nov 17, 2014 22:10:04 GMT -5
If Sandoval somehow ends up at 4 years, then sure, even at $20/year I take that over Headley. But at 6, maybe even 5 years, I just want no part of an $18/year Sandoval
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Post by sibbysisti on Nov 17, 2014 22:56:03 GMT -5
Everyone gives the Sox crap for lowballing Lester at the start of the season. Why doesn't anyone give the Giants crap for lowballing Panda? If SF had offered Sandoval 4 years / $72 million before the season (matching what Pence had left on his deal at the time), none of us would be speculating about what kind of room service damage Panda is doing at the Four Seasons right now. No. Right now he's having his second tiramisu at Tresca's compliments of Curly, Larry and Moe.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 18, 2014 8:52:34 GMT -5
I've never seen so much hype for a 2.5-3.0 WAR player. If it were 2011, after his 5.5 WAR season, I would have understood it. Do people expect him to go back to his 2011 form after declining 3 straight years? Or are people completely overrating his playoff performance?
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 18, 2014 9:24:34 GMT -5
People are doing a few things (in no particular order):
- talking themselves into reasons he's better than he is because it seems the Red Sox are about to make a panic signing.
- over-rating his playoff performances
- willing to overpay because they are panicked about the third base options or lack there of.
- overly desperate for a LHH
- putting a lot of stock in the idea that In a couple years 20m a year is going to be what 12-15m a year is today.
All these things or some of them add up to over paying a player who definitely doesn't deserve it. Then on top of the infield "is he even worth it questions" you have the off the field weight and motivation questions. It will easily go down as the dumbest signing of the offseason.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 18, 2014 10:07:59 GMT -5
Also, his splits are a little concerning.
wRC+ as RH vs LHP by year 08 - 36 (only 41 PA) 09 - 176 (with a .392 BABIP) 10 - 61 11 - 97 12 - 107 13 - 99 14 - 59 (with a .210 BABIP)
Nevermind, they're not concerning. His lack of walks and OBP are way more concerning. I really don't want him.
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Post by jrffam05 on Nov 18, 2014 10:11:55 GMT -5
I wonder if they plan to move him to 1B as early as 2016 if he is signed to replace Napoli, then eventually to DH to replace Ortiz. I still can't wrap my head around the Red Sox interest in this guy considering how the FO has managed the team the last three years.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 18, 2014 10:19:23 GMT -5
I wonder if they plan to move him to 1B as early as 2016 if he is signed to replace Napoli, then eventually to DH to replace Ortiz. I still can't wrap my head around the Red Sox interest in this guy considering how the FO has managed the team the last three years. He would be a below average hitting first baseman if he hit the same as he has the last 3 seasons, which probably isn't worth paying $20 million a year. When I say probably, that is the understatement of the year.
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Post by jrffam05 on Nov 18, 2014 10:21:19 GMT -5
Yea, I agree. But like I said I just don't understand the target on this guy when the Red Sox have typically stayed away from these deals in the last couple of years.
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Post by jmei on Nov 18, 2014 10:49:53 GMT -5
Look, I'm not a Sandoval fan by any stretch of the imagination, but he's still an above-average starting third baseman who I'd be happy to have at the right price.
There's good reason to think he'd be helped more than the average hitter by a move to Fenway (he has power to the opposite field as a LHH), and his size has not prevented him from being an above-average defender at 3B over his career. His age is also a positive-- you'd be getting 3 or 4 prime years as opposed to the 1 or 2 from Headley/etc., and if you think he can stay at 3B for those prime years (which is possible and maybe even likely-- he's got quick feet, good instincts/reaction time, and a strong arm), he's a very valuable player indeed.
For something like 5/$80m, maybe up to 5/$90m? I'd love to have him, and I think it's certainly possible that he ends up signing for something in that range. It's only because I think he'll cost significantly more than that that I prefer, say, Headley or Hanley or Valbuena.
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Nov 18, 2014 10:54:08 GMT -5
Braves are meeting with Lester this Thursday which is interesting given their trade of Heyward yesterday which gives them some additional salary relief. There are also rumors floating around that they are dangling Chris Johnson which would give them some more salary relief which could help them to sign Lester who has an offseason home in the Atlanta area.
PS-Cafardo and his Pandamania musings are embarassing.
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Post by youngbillrussell on Nov 18, 2014 10:57:44 GMT -5
The thing is though the Sox are gonna have to overpay for him to leave SF. I'd doubt he gets less then $95M but I guess will see.
Don't you sometimes have to overpay for a player that can handle this type of market and steps it up when it matters? We've seen so many examples of players that couldn't cut it around here and I have no question about that with Sandoval.
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Post by jmei on Nov 18, 2014 11:11:05 GMT -5
I suspect Sandoval's market might be lower than we think. San Francisco was reportedly unwilling to go more than three years last offseason-- how much could they have changed their minds in one season? (Though note that this logic also applies to the Red Sox/Lester, and as we can see from that situation, teams can change their minds a lot in one year.) The Yankees are reportedly not in on him, and who else is there? I'm not convinced that the Blue Jays or the White Sox are going to set the market.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 18, 2014 11:24:12 GMT -5
Remember the year the Yankees weren't in on big free agents and walked away with CC, Tiexiera and Burnett?
I too would like the Panda at the right price, I just haven't seen anything near that reported and if he's truly willing to take less to stay in San Fran, my guess is they step up in years if Boston is in a reasonable price range for his services.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,501
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Post by nomar on Nov 18, 2014 11:34:36 GMT -5
Everyone gives the Sox crap for lowballing Lester at the start of the season. Why doesn't anyone give the Giants crap for lowballing Panda? If SF had offered Sandoval 4 years / $72 million before the season (matching what Pence had left on his deal at the time), none of us would be speculating about what kind of room service damage Panda is doing at the Four Seasons right now. Lester is twice as valuable as Sandoval. Also panda is a free agent whereas Lester was going into a contract year. The two scenarios aren't that comparable.
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Nov 18, 2014 13:11:12 GMT -5
Jerry Crasnick ?@jcrasnick 3s4 seconds ago Hearing Pablo Sandoval has discussed deals in the 5-year, $80-90 million range with #sfgiants and #redsox.
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Nov 18, 2014 13:11:50 GMT -5
Jerry Crasnick ?@jcrasnick 15s16 seconds ago Indications are things could come together quickly with Sandoval and the #redsox are a very serious player.
Can't say I'm thrilled, but at least its not in the 20/yr range... yet
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