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nomar
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Post by nomar on Nov 19, 2014 10:28:08 GMT -5
They know him as the Panda. He's definitely very marketable. They sell panda hats (horrendous) that you see everywhere in San Fran. And taking into account their skill gap, you surprisingly aee as many Sandoval shirts/jerseys as you do Posey. He's very marketable
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Post by greatscottcooper on Nov 19, 2014 10:32:07 GMT -5
Lets get a show of hands.....how many people can't wait to buy their Pablo Sandoval jersey???
building a complete team and winning is also highly marketable.
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Post by soxfan06 on Nov 19, 2014 10:35:41 GMT -5
Lets get a show of hands.....how many people can't wait to buy their Pablo Sandoval jersey??? building a complete team and winning is also highly marketable. HINT: The people posting on a prospect message board aren't going to be the target market for Pablo Sandoval marketing plans.
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Post by jrffam05 on Nov 19, 2014 10:35:56 GMT -5
...... Playing 3B again in Fenway will give him a smaller zone to cover and should cut down on his errors. ...... Is the infield at Fenway smaller at the 3B size like LF is and I missed it? When Iglesias was playing SS it was. Now with Bogaerts it might have gotten bigger.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Nov 19, 2014 10:55:51 GMT -5
Lets get a show of hands.....how many people can't wait to buy their Pablo Sandoval jersey??? building a complete team and winning is also highly marketable. HINT: The people posting on a prospect message board aren't going to be the target market for Pablo Sandoval marketing plans. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of people in here are also Red Sox fans, and happen to know a lot of Red Sox fans. How many people who ARE NOT SFG fans would name Pablo Sandoval as their favorite player?
We aren't talking about bringing Mike Trout or Giancarlo Stanton in here and Sandoval hasn't done anything for Boston yet, I highly doubt people are going to be lining up to by Pablo Sandoval jerseys.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Nov 19, 2014 10:59:19 GMT -5
HINT: The people posting on a prospect message board aren't going to be the target market for Pablo Sandoval marketing plans. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of people in here are also Red Sox fans, and happen to know a lot of Red Sox fans. How many people who ARE NOT SFG fans would name Pablo Sandoval as their favorite player?
We aren't talking about bringing Mike Trout or Giancarlo Stanton in here and Sandoval hasn't done anything for Boston yet, I highly doubt people are going to be lining up to by Pablo Sandoval jerseys.
He's a very popular player because of his postseason play and nickname. Sorry if you don't believe it, but his merchandise would sell a lot more than the thee FA 3B such as Headley or even Hanley. You may not think so, but it's true.
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Post by grandsalami on Nov 19, 2014 11:04:01 GMT -5
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danr
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Post by danr on Nov 19, 2014 11:05:42 GMT -5
To Gammons' claim that Panda's home ballpark has hurt him, the numbers seem to show the opposite. In his career, he's .313/.365/.488 for an OPS of .853 at home and .277/328/.443 for an OPS of .771 on the road. BABIP is a factor here. He's .327 at home and .299 on the road. In 2014, he was .293/.342/.432 for an OPS of.774 at home and .266/.308/.399 for an OPS of .707 on the road. Again, BABIP accounts for some of it: .314 at home and .286 on the road. I also have to take issue with those who say he can become a DH when his lard-bod keeps him from playing the field. His OPS-plus has gone from 123 to 116 to 111 in the last three years. He's heading toward a level of production that simply isn't enough for a DH. His season stats are deceptive. His drop in OPS+, etc. was due to a bad start. This season he was hitting .167 on May 6 and hit .306 after that. And his better hitting continued into the post season. He did not show season-long signs of decline. I don't think anyone in the game is worried about that.
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Post by soxfan06 on Nov 19, 2014 11:18:17 GMT -5
HINT: The people posting on a prospect message board aren't going to be the target market for Pablo Sandoval marketing plans. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of people in here are also Red Sox fans, and happen to know a lot of Red Sox fans. How many people who ARE NOT SFG fans would name Pablo Sandoval as their favorite player?
We aren't talking about bringing Mike Trout or Giancarlo Stanton in here and Sandoval hasn't done anything for Boston yet, I highly doubt people are going to be lining up to by Pablo Sandoval jerseys.
1. You are wrong, IMO. 2. I'm not advocating we sign Sandoval. I'm against it. I will cry if we offer him 6 years. Literally cry.
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Post by jrffam05 on Nov 19, 2014 11:22:57 GMT -5
HINT: The people posting on a prospect message board aren't going to be the target market for Pablo Sandoval marketing plans. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of people in here are also Red Sox fans, and happen to know a lot of Red Sox fans. How many people who ARE NOT SFG fans would name Pablo Sandoval as their favorite player?
We aren't talking about bringing Mike Trout or Giancarlo Stanton in here and Sandoval hasn't done anything for Boston yet, I highly doubt people are going to be lining up to by Pablo Sandoval jerseys.
This is 2013, so it's not the highest quality data, but Sandoval comes in at #19 in Jersey sales. 2012 title is a good portion of this too. Can't find any sources where they rank more than the top 20, but I'd still conservatively assume he is easily a top 100 guy and reasonably he is a top 40 guy. www.csnbayarea.com/giants/posey-no-1-mlb-jersey-sales-romo-sandoval-top-20Anyways, people on this board are in no way close to a random sample of the target retail market of the Red Sox.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 19, 2014 11:24:13 GMT -5
To Gammons' claim that Panda's home ballpark has hurt him, the numbers seem to show the opposite. In his career, he's .313/.365/.488 for an OPS of .853 at home and .277/328/.443 for an OPS of .771 on the road. BABIP is a factor here. He's .327 at home and .299 on the road. In 2014, he was .293/.342/.432 for an OPS of.774 at home and .266/.308/.399 for an OPS of .707 on the road. Again, BABIP accounts for some of it: .314 at home and .286 on the road. I also have to take issue with those who say he can become a DH when his lard-bod keeps him from playing the field. His OPS-plus has gone from 123 to 116 to 111 in the last three years. He's heading toward a level of production that simply isn't enough for a DH. His season stats are deceptive. His drop in OPS+, etc. was due to a bad start. This season he was hitting .167 on May 6 and hit .306 after that. And his better hitting continued into the post season. He did not show season-long signs of decline. I don't think anyone in the game is worried about that. Was it a bad start due to showing up fatter?
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Post by brianthetaoist on Nov 19, 2014 11:30:13 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure the Sox would consider the factors for good marketing of the team to be, in order of importance:
1. Winning 2. Winning without actual felons on the team 3. Winning with generally likable guys (2013, ftw!) 4. Winning with likable, big personalities on the team
And I think most of their interest would fall off after #2 ... really, if they win, and the players don't make any negative waves, that's what they want.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Nov 19, 2014 11:31:53 GMT -5
I will cry if we offer him 6 years. Literally cry. You better not cry, you better cry, cause Panda is coming to town!!
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Post by greatscottcooper on Nov 19, 2014 11:34:13 GMT -5
I don't care what # in jersey sales Sandoval is...What percentage of those do you think were from San Francisco fans? And that was after years of building a relationship and sharing intimate baseball moments on the field on the West Coast.
No matter how aware our fan base is of what Sandoval is, that is not going to fully carry over to Fenway. Could he build that again? sure, but off the bat he's not going to sell you anywhere near as many jersey's in Boston as he would in San Francisco.
Also, at best, this would add marginal value to the team. Do jerseys make a team money? yes, but WINNING probably makes them even more money which brings us back to original debate of is this...or is this not a good investment? This signing is also not an independent event, it affects all the other decision into building a roster this year and for the next several and all those weigh more heavily than how many Jersey Pablo Sandoval is going to sell.
Also, any GM that stops looking at how to add wins and starts looking at boosting his merchandise sale should be fired right away. Perhaps I'm low balling the value of signing a guy just to sell a jersey, but I'm pretty sure you guys are overvaluing it as well. If you make the best investments and build the best team possible, and that doesn't involve signing Panda....somebody, somewhere at some point is going to make up for any revenue Pablo Sandoval would have generated from selling jerseys.
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danr
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Post by danr on Nov 19, 2014 11:40:05 GMT -5
His season stats are deceptive. His drop in OPS+, etc. was due to a bad start. This season he was hitting .167 on May 6 and hit .306 after that. And his better hitting continued into the post season. He did not show season-long signs of decline. I don't think anyone in the game is worried about that. Was it a bad start due to showing up fatter? Supposedly, it was because he was distracted by contract talks. His brother monitors his food intake and he is reported to have stuck to a diet all season. I have not read anywhere that weight was an issue this season, although it has been in the past.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 19, 2014 11:47:08 GMT -5
Was it a bad start due to showing up fatter? Supposedly, it was because he was distracted by contract talks. His brother monitors his food intake and he is reported to have stuck to a diet all season. I have not read anywhere that weight was an issue this season, although it has been in the past. Let's hope he wouldn't be distracted by the questions like "Do you feel added pressure to OPS more than .700 while you're making $20 million per year?"
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Post by soxfan06 on Nov 19, 2014 11:58:18 GMT -5
I don't care what # in jersey sales Sandoval is...What percentage of those do you think were from San Francisco fans? And that was after years of building a relationship and sharing intimate baseball moments on the field on the West Coast. No matter how aware our fan base is of what Sandoval is, that is not going to fully carry over to Fenway. Could he build that again? sure, but off the bat he's not going to sell you anywhere near as many jersey's in Boston as he would in San Francisco. Also, at best, this would add marginal value to the team. Do jerseys make a team money? yes, but WINNING probably makes them even more money which brings us back to original debate of is this...or is this not a good investment? This signing is also not an independent event, it affects all the other decision into building a roster this year and for the next several and all those weigh more heavily than how many Jersey Pablo Sandoval is going to sell.T Also, any GM that stops looking at how to add wins and starts looking at boosting his merchandise sale should be fired right away. Perhaps I'm low balling the value of signing a guy just to sell a jersey, but I'm pretty sure you guys are overvaluing it as well. If you make the best investments and build the best team possible, and that doesn't involve signing Panda....somebody, somewhere at some point is going to make up for any revenue Pablo Sandoval would have generated from selling jerseys. A couple of points, I'm not sure why you keep bring up the fact that most Sandoval fans are SF Giants fans. Of course that is the case, he plays for the Giants. I'm 100% sure if the Red Sox signed him, he would become a fan favorite almost immediately. He has that personality, he has that attitude and he has that branding. Most guys don't come into town with a bevy of nicknames like The Panda or the Kung Fu Panda, etc. Secondly, I'm not sure why you keep making it seem like signing a marketable player means sacrificing wins for this team. Lastly, no one has ever remotely suggested that Ben C is not looking at how to addd wins but rather he is looking at boosting teams merchandise sales. That's something the owners look at. Not the GM. The whole point was, if the GM is targeting a guy who he thinks is a good fit to improve the team then the owners might be more willing to spend a little more on said player because he is very marketable. This has nothing to do with Ben C going out looking for players who are going to make the owners money, after all, as soon as he does that he is going to get himself fired. He's not that dumb. You can argue the merits of Sandoval's on field value all you want. That's not what we are discussing here though. I'm 100% for avoiding Sandoval and signing someone else. But I can understand that this is also a business and when a player is marketable that makes him more attractive to the people who are writing the checks.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 19, 2014 12:03:15 GMT -5
This is a ridiculous conversation. I'm booing him if he's on the Red Sox.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Nov 19, 2014 12:13:40 GMT -5
That's a good way to react.
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Post by jrffam05 on Nov 19, 2014 12:20:08 GMT -5
I don't care what # in jersey sales Sandoval is...What percentage of those do you think were from San Francisco fans? And that was after years of building a relationship and sharing intimate baseball moments on the field on the West Coast. No matter how aware our fan base is of what Sandoval is, that is not going to fully carry over to Fenway. Could he build that again? sure, but off the bat he's not going to sell you anywhere near as many jersey's in Boston as he would in San Francisco. Also, at best, this would add marginal value to the team. Do jerseys make a team money? yes, but WINNING probably makes them even more money which brings us back to original debate of is this...or is this not a good investment? This signing is also not an independent event, it affects all the other decision into building a roster this year and for the next several and all those weigh more heavily than how many Jersey Pablo Sandoval is going to sell. Also, any GM that stops looking at how to add wins and starts looking at boosting his merchandise sale should be fired right away. Perhaps I'm low balling the value of signing a guy just to sell a jersey, but I'm pretty sure you guys are overvaluing it as well. If you make the best investments and build the best team possible, and that doesn't involve signing Panda....somebody, somewhere at some point is going to make up for any revenue Pablo Sandoval would have generated from selling jerseys. That's great that you don't care, I would say that the marketing guys the Red Sox employ don't care what you think either. I'm not trying to come off as a marketing wiz because I'm not, but the big names are really where a good chunk of the revenue comes from. Pablo Sandoval, deserving or not, is one of the more recognized players in the game. That would directly translate to the market in Boston. Want to do a quick experiment, walk around Boston and ask any person with any Red Sox gear to name 4 players signed now who will be in the every day line up. Ask for 2 starting pitcher, or two relievers. Let's up the ante, ask them to explain what OPS is, or if FIP and WAR are real metrics or acronyms you just made up. I would guess you would get back somewhere around 15% competent answers. Have you ever been to a Red Sox game and heard the people around you talk? Most don't know the players, the stats, even the rules. They are still there spending money. The fact when the average person in Boston see's ESPN that the Red Sox signed a huge deal for a name you are somewhat familiar with, and twitter retweets it a million times, it changes a normal fans expectation much more than a Chase Headley signing would. A little name recognition over the 650 thousand people in Boston makes a big difference. Big market teams, including the Red Sox do this all the time. Carl Crawford was on of the "sexy" acquisitions that the research team said the Red Sox needed. I'm sure there is much more that goes into decision making over performance, cost, risk that we routinely speak about. Let's not kid ourselves about ownership, I mean I think they are doing a good job, but if they had to choose between losing money and putting up a winning team, or having a losing team that makes money, there is one choose they would make 100% of the time. And to be clear, I am against a Sandoval signing.
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Post by grandsalami on Nov 19, 2014 12:27:21 GMT -5
Gordon Edes ?@gordonedes 13s13 seconds ago
Sox are preparing offer to present to Sandoval today, according to ML source. @sean_McAdam first to report
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Post by greatscottcooper on Nov 19, 2014 12:27:46 GMT -5
I don't care what # in jersey sales Sandoval is...What percentage of those do you think were from San Francisco fans? And that was after years of building a relationship and sharing intimate baseball moments on the field on the West Coast. No matter how aware our fan base is of what Sandoval is, that is not going to fully carry over to Fenway. Could he build that again? sure, but off the bat he's not going to sell you anywhere near as many jersey's in Boston as he would in San Francisco. Also, at best, this would add marginal value to the team. Do jerseys make a team money? yes, but WINNING probably makes them even more money which brings us back to original debate of is this...or is this not a good investment? This signing is also not an independent event, it affects all the other decision into building a roster this year and for the next several and all those weigh more heavily than how many Jersey Pablo Sandoval is going to sell.T Also, any GM that stops looking at how to add wins and starts looking at boosting his merchandise sale should be fired right away. Perhaps I'm low balling the value of signing a guy just to sell a jersey, but I'm pretty sure you guys are overvaluing it as well. If you make the best investments and build the best team possible, and that doesn't involve signing Panda....somebody, somewhere at some point is going to make up for any revenue Pablo Sandoval would have generated from selling jerseys. A couple of points, I'm not sure why you keep bring up the fact that most Sandoval fans are SF Giants fans. Of course that is the case, he plays for the Giants. I'm 100% sure if the Red Sox signed him, he would become a fan favorite almost immediately. He has that personality, he has that attitude and he has that branding. Most guys don't come into town with a bevy of nicknames like The Panda or the Kung Fu Panda, etc. Secondly, I'm not sure why you keep making it seem like signing a marketable player means sacrificing wins for this team. Lastly, no one has ever remotely suggested that Ben C is not looking at how to addd wins but rather he is looking at boosting teams merchandise sales. That's something the owners look at. Not the GM. The whole point was, if the GM is targeting a guy who he thinks is a good fit to improve the team then the owners might be more willing to spend a little more on said player because he is very marketable. This has nothing to do with Ben C going out looking for players who are going to make the owners money, after all, as soon as he does that he is going to get himself fired. He's not that dumb. You can argue the merits of Sandoval's on field value all you want. That's not what we are discussing here though. I'm 100% for avoiding Sandoval and signing someone else. But I can understand that this is also a business and when a player is marketable that makes him more attractive to the people who are writing the checks. Fair points, but let me try to lay down my argument better. I understand Panda is marketable, and that he will likely sell some jerseys. But all that data that tells you that is more indicative of what happened and increasingly less predictive the further out we go. Weather men don't predict the weather tomorrow based on whether or not it rained the last 6 days any more than the value of jersey sales in Boston are highly related to what Sandoval does over the length of his contract. Would you agree that Albert Pujols is selling less jerseys now than he did before the Angels signed him??? we know he's not. Sure, I bet he did his first year, but you don't sign a guy for 1 year of jersey sales and if you do then we should just go out and sign Tim Tebow to play 3B (ridiculous point, I know but I couldn't help myself).
And again a lot of that value in jersey sales is attributed to the players popularity which takes time to develop. Think of it this way, you and I are likely to get much less excited about an equal level prospect in the Padres system as the Sox system because we are familiar with these guys and we've built up a love for them. This same principal applies to why Buster Posey sells so many jerseys.
Just look at the list of the top jersey sellers: hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/07/11/buster-posey-mariano-rivera-are-mlbs-top-selling-jerseys/ You'll notice just about every single player is a homegrown player and/or someone who made their MLB debut with that team with the exception to Miguel Cabrera; who has spent more time in Detroit and has won 2 MVPs there. So again, that "popularity" ideal that drives jersey sales is highly built around the "what have you done for me" factor...and what has Pablo Sandoval done for Boston? nothing. How many players get traded or sign FA contracts and become top 20 jersey sellers? the list is surprisingly small. He would sell more jerseys than Valbuena, but in the absence of him coming to Boston and putting up .900+ OPS seasons again his sales are likely to take a dive.
To bet on Sandoval selling lots of Jerseys is to bet on him having a good career in Boston. And the best argument against me, isn't his Jersey sales in SF, rather it's the fact that Boston seems to be very interested in him.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 19, 2014 12:28:20 GMT -5
That's a good way to react. It was snarky. I wouldn't really do it. I'd just bitch about it here that it's ridiculous for the Red Sox to care more about marketing and jersey sales than about putting the best team together. I really don't think people would be rushing out to buy Sandoval jerseys if he's hitting .260 with 15 home runs. I bet a lot of the ones sold in SF were bought in 2011 when was a 5.5 WAR player, not half of that like he is now.
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Post by texs31 on Nov 19, 2014 12:30:44 GMT -5
Nick Cafardo?@nickcafardo·1 min1 minute ago ?Middleborough Center, MA Offers have been made to both Jon Lester and Pablo Sandoval by Red Sox according to a major league source.
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Post by grandsalami on Nov 19, 2014 12:31:52 GMT -5
That's a good way to react. It was snarky. I wouldn't really do it. I'd just bitch about it here that it's ridiculous for the Red Sox to care more about marketing and jersey sales than about putting the best team together. Are we really going to go that route again? that the marketing office is making decisions for BC? I thought we were past that.... And really, like I said, the FA market for 3B is pure crap for the next 4 years.. So who do you want to man 3B. Do you want to get in a bidding war with the yankees for Chase Headley?
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