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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Nov 29, 2014 9:31:57 GMT -5
With Cueto (or any of the pitchers) I think we'd have to assume there are varying levels of return that could be added to Cespedes (or Napoli) based on the ability to negotiate an extension with one package (say Cespedes, Johnson and Barnes) if we could extend said pitcher and another package (say Cespedes and Ranaudo) if not.
One thing that I think might be interesting to consider for some of the mid-market teams that don't want to make a lateral move would be including Buchholz along with Cespedes and / or Napoli in any deal, specifically if we want a better pitcher. What if - for instance - we could trade San Diego Cespedes, Buchholz, Ranaudo, Brentz, and Workman for Tyson Ross. Combined with a trade of lets say Napoli and Marrero for Iwakuma and we sign Lester.
Gives us Lester, Ross, Iwakuma, Kelly and De La Rosa in the rotation with Owens, Johnson, Rodriguez, Webster and Barnes at AAA for some great depth in the starting rotation and lots of upside.
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Post by larrycook on Nov 29, 2014 9:52:08 GMT -5
To maybe make this more realistic and hurt a bit more... What if it were Cespedes and Barnes? What if it were Cespedes and Johnson? What if it were Cespedes and Rodriguez? I think you'd need to send one of those three (or Owens). With Marshall, I think you count on him to throw the middle innings, with the chance he does a lot more and a chance he doesn't even pitch. EDIT: hadn't read redsox040713champs's post yet, but yeah, that sounds right. With Barnes or Johnson, maybe you throw one more guy in. But remember, taking Marshall off their hands is like sending them a player. For me Cueto is the pitcher I really want. I want them to resign Lester and trade for Cueto. I would give up Cespedes and Barnes and/or Johnson. I'd give up both if that's what it took. I'd also give up players like Webster and Ranaudo. Not sure about Rodriguez as he has elite stuff, I see him as a Jon Lester type pitcher. I wouldn't include Owens. Is cherrington waiting to see how the lester deal unfolds before finalizing trades that have obviously been in the works for weeks? I believe Cueto is the target that cherrington is after from the Reds, but because cherrington over values prospects, it will be hard to get this deal done. I am thinking cherrington and San Diego could finalize a deal at any time, but san diego is probably option #3 as far as trade partners goes for cherrington, with Cincy and Seattle at #1 and #2.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 29, 2014 17:05:10 GMT -5
With Cueto (or any of the pitchers) I think we'd have to assume there are varying levels of return that could be added to Cespedes (or Napoli) based on the ability to negotiate an extension with one package (say Cespedes, Johnson and Barnes) if we could extend said pitcher and another package (say Cespedes and Ranaudo) if not. One thing that I think might be interesting to consider for some of the mid-market teams that don't want to make a lateral move would be including Buchholz along with Cespedes and / or Napoli in any deal, specifically if we want a better pitcher. What if - for instance - we could trade San Diego Cespedes, Buchholz, Ranaudo, Brentz, and Workman for Tyson Ross. Combined with a trade of lets say Napoli and Marrero for Iwakuma and we sign Lester. Gives us Lester, Ross, Iwakuma, Kelly and De La Rosa in the rotation with Owens, Johnson, Rodriguez, Webster and Barnes at AAA for some great depth in the starting rotation and lots of upside. You would trade Cespedes, Buchholz, Ranaudo, Brentz and Workman for Tyson Ross? That's a crazy trade. Now at age 27 he did have a good season, but was worth only 2.4 WARS. He's only made 30 starts once and has never pitched 200 innings in a season, though he came really close last year. Also remember that his home park is among the top pitching parks in the majors, the Coors field of pitching. Maybe I do a Cespedes straight up or add a Brentz type player. That's it. Adding Buchholz, Ranaudo and Workman is overkill. Are you a Padres fan? We could get Cueto for that package! Players like Ranaudo and Workman have real value. Even if you see them as number 4/5 starters or high end relievers.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Nov 29, 2014 17:09:37 GMT -5
Holy sh*t that's a ridiculous proposal.
Ross is way worse on the road even with park adjusted stats. His 41% slider rate spells injury. And he gets punished by the heart of the order in a division fairly weak in hitting.
If it wasn't for the multiple years of control, he wouldn't be worth Cespedes alone. We'd be much better off taking Porcello for Cespedes straight up.
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Nov 30, 2014 9:03:34 GMT -5
Hahahaha. No, I'm certainly not a Padres fan. Maybe a Red Sox fan that just doesn't think Cespedes has nearly the value that a lot of people on here do, and I suppose the same can be applied to Buchholz. I absolutely believe that Cueto or Iwakuma is a far better pitcher than Ross, the difference is we'd have those players for one season, and then be going through this mess all over again, but Ross we'd control for the next three years, through the middle part of his prime (age 28, 29 and 30 seasons).
Last season FanGraphs had Cespedes worth $18.2M and Ross at $14.6M - so call one year of Cespedes what you could get for one year of Ross. However how would you account for his next two seasons of control beyond that. That is where I think of the package of Buchholz, Ranaduo, Brentz and Workman coming into play. Using Buchholz as the primary piece, his average value the past three years has been $11.5M and I'd far rather be able to count on Ross as my 3rd starter than the enigma that is Buchholz.
The home / away splits for Ross are certainly a fair concern, but any pitcher whom we'd acquire for Cespedes, Buchholz and prospects that are basically 40man roster crunch at this point aren't going to be perfect. However, I don't know where the thought of him being terrible against the middle of the order are coming from.
Most pitchers do poorly against the middle of the lineup since that's where the best hitters are. However, look at his numbers against the first 7 spots in the order compared with those of Jon Lester. I'll use his sOPS+ against (which looks at the OPS+ he gives up relative to what other pitchers gave up, league and park adjusted) where a score of 100 is league average, above 100 means the pitcher did worse, below 100 means the pitcher did better.
In order vs position leadoff (through 7 since I think we all agree that the "use" of 8/9 hitters in the NL is drastically skewed) he had sOPS+ scores of 129; 71; 90; 60; 120; 58; 32. On the other hand Lester put up against the same positions 68; 44; 100; 60; 120; 70 and 112. Now I'll use Cueto for the same scores of 77; 40; 130; 112; 30; 9(that's insane); 77. So Ross didn't do any worse (in fact he did quite a bit better) against the traditional middle of the line up (3, 4 and 5 hitters) as a guy we'd pretty much all happily take back in Lester. So Ross was quite a it better against the 3&4 hitters relative to Cueto but worse against the 5 hitter. That doesn't strike me as a guy who got hit any worse against the meat of the line up than two of the best pitchers in the baseball last year.
I might be in the minority, but if I could trade one year of Cespedes, Buchholz (one year left, two team options), and guys that look far more like bullpen pieces (Ranaudo and Workman) than starters for the Red Sox and Bryce Brentz (when we still have Ramirez, Castillo, Betts, Bradley Jr, Nava and Craig) I'd do that. Honestly, I'm not sure if San Diego would.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 30, 2014 9:42:17 GMT -5
They aren't trading that many players for Tyson Ross, and definitely not including Buchholz who could end up better than him in any given season.
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Nov 30, 2014 10:39:42 GMT -5
Sure, I suppose Buchholz could be better than him in any given season. So could Allen Webster. But how likely is it to happen. Buchholz has now had 7 seasons in the Majors (not counting 2007). As I mentioned, last year Tyson Ross put up a value on FanGraphs of $14.6M, making 31 starts, and will be 28. Clay Buchholz has put up a better season in value exactly once, 2013 when he was worth $16M. Personally, I'd say 2010 (so we'll be 5 seasons removed from that) was his best year when he started 28 games and was worth $14.1M.
However, overall, in those 7 years, Clay has never started more than 29 games, and in two years when he started his most and second most (29 starts in 2012 and 28 starts last year) he was quite bad with a 4.56 and 5.34ERA respectively. Buchholz will also be paid $12M next year whereas Ross will be in his first year of arbitration, and I'll assume he more than doubles his salary last year, so gets paid $4M next season. I would rather have Ross as my three than Buchholz and it isn't close.
Is Buchholz more talented than Ross (and maybe every starter in the AL East) - absolutely. Though there is very little chance I bank on him being worth more than Ross next season, mostly because I don't think he can be both "healthy" and "effective" next season. We can agree to disagree, but other than his "stuff" which has translated to a better season exactly once, what makes anyone think that Buchholz will be more valuable than Ross next year?
By the way - I am enjoying this discussion, but maybe the mods could (or want to) move it to another thread, perhaps one focused on the San Diego pitchers, or the potential of trading Clay Buchholz and expected return? I find it an interesting discussion, but admit that it has nothing to do with Cespedes for Cueto.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 30, 2014 13:41:10 GMT -5
I like Ross and am a proponent of his. I also think trading Buchholz is a legit move to make to upgrade his spot in the rotation. The issue I have is giving up Cespedes and Buchholz and only getting a guy like Ross. You can argue all you want whether Ross or Clay gives more value. The reality is it's not necessarily a big upgrade if one at all and you used a lot of pieces to get it.
I think Buchholz could be attractive to certain teams like the Reds because his upside is immense, move to the NL could be beneficial and he can be cost controlled or moved on from because of his contract setup... I don't think the Padres are a good match for him." Except maybe for Cashner if his medicals are ok. But I'm not sure why San Diego would trade Cashner just yet...
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Nov 30, 2014 14:18:03 GMT -5
There is a blurb on MLBTradeRumors.com about teams having interest in Buchholz (There are teams interested in Red Sox right-hander Clay Buchholz. “There’s a lot of talent there that hasn’t come out,” one NL scout said) at the bottom of their recent update on the Red Sox, and I think this is a decent time to cash in on him. Not that he's near the apex of his value, but just in that we need a bit more certainty from his spot in the rotation, and this could be a great spot to save some money by moving him as part of a package for a more cost effective starting pitcher. I wouldn't want to give him up for someone who doesn't have multiple years of control, so that's why I keep going to Ross, though Cashner is another name I'd have some interest in there for sure (although it's not as if he's ever started 30 games in a season before either, granted Ross has done it once, but he's pitched in a lot of games before being used as a reliever so he seems to stay pretty healthy). Honestly at this point I consider Clay to be our #5 starter, simply because I don't think there is any way to depend on him, which is too bad as he's got the most talent of probably anyone in the system as a starter.
To go with another angle, I wonder if he might be a decent piece to include in any potential Hamels trade. He might be exactly the type of player that Amaro would place a high value on with some name recognition. I don't see any way that Cespedes would have value for Philly with only one year of control left, but maybe a package including Buchholz as a "center piece" to decrease prospect cost along with one of the fringe AAA prospects (Ranaudo, Barnes, Escobar, Wright, Workman) and a hitting prospect (such as Brentz, Coyle, Rijo, or Marrero). I could see Amaro being very interested in Buchholz, Barnes and local kid Sean Coyle as a return for Hamels.
*Caveat that yes, going all prospects and trying to get something headlined by Owens and lesser prospects would be smarter, but I don't think of Amaro as being what we'd call smart about his deals.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 30, 2014 15:09:22 GMT -5
Hahahaha. No, I'm certainly not a Padres fan. Maybe a Red Sox fan that just doesn't think Cespedes has nearly the value that a lot of people on here do, and I suppose the same can be applied to Buchholz. I absolutely believe that Cueto or Iwakuma is a far better pitcher than Ross, the difference is we'd have those players for one season, and then be going through this mess all over again, but Ross we'd control for the next three years, through the middle part of his prime (age 28, 29 and 30 seasons). Last season FanGraphs had Cespedes worth $18.2M and Ross at $14.6M - so call one year of Cespedes what you could get for one year of Ross. However how would you account for his next two seasons of control beyond that. That is where I think of the package of Buchholz, Ranaduo, Brentz and Workman coming into play. Using Buchholz as the primary piece, his average value the past three years has been $11.5M and I'd far rather be able to count on Ross as my 3rd starter than the enigma that is Buchholz. The home / away splits for Ross are certainly a fair concern, but any pitcher whom we'd acquire for Cespedes, Buchholz and prospects that are basically 40man roster crunch at this point aren't going to be perfect. However, I don't know where the thought of him being terrible against the middle of the order are coming from. Most pitchers do poorly against the middle of the lineup since that's where the best hitters are. However, look at his numbers against the first 7 spots in the order compared with those of Jon Lester. I'll use his sOPS+ against (which looks at the OPS+ he gives up relative to what other pitchers gave up, league and park adjusted) where a score of 100 is league average, above 100 means the pitcher did worse, below 100 means the pitcher did better. In order vs position leadoff (through 7 since I think we all agree that the "use" of 8/9 hitters in the NL is drastically skewed) he had sOPS+ scores of 129; 71; 90; 60; 120; 58; 32. On the other hand Lester put up against the same positions 68; 44; 100; 60; 120; 70 and 112. Now I'll use Cueto for the same scores of 77; 40; 130; 112; 30; 9(that's insane); 77. So Ross didn't do any worse (in fact he did quite a bit better) against the traditional middle of the line up (3, 4 and 5 hitters) as a guy we'd pretty much all happily take back in Lester. So Ross was quite a it better against the 3&4 hitters relative to Cueto but worse against the 5 hitter. That doesn't strike me as a guy who got hit any worse against the meat of the line up than two of the best pitchers in the baseball last year. I might be in the minority, but if I could trade one year of Cespedes, Buchholz (one year left, two team options), and guys that look far more like bullpen pieces (Ranaudo and Workman) than starters for the Red Sox and Bryce Brentz (when we still have Ramirez, Castillo, Betts, Bradley Jr, Nava and Craig) I'd do that. Honestly, I'm not sure if San Diego would. The problem with your way of thinking is that Ross has only one good, not great season. What's to say that last year wasn't a career year, we just don't know. He could get better, stay the same or regress. I get the team control, but were not Tampa Bay, we can afford to pay market value to players. So his team friendly deal means less to us then other teams like Tampa. Also Workman and Raunuado have a lot more value them you think. They are major league ready with good track records in the minors. They should become number 4/5 starters or above average bullpen arms. The case can be made that Raunuado, Workman and Brentz for Ross straight up is a fair trade. Players like Cecpedes are valuable, you know what your getting. How many guys that hit over 20 HR a year are currently a free agent? One Nelson Cruz. How many pitchers are available that are better then Ross? A ton.
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Nov 30, 2014 17:12:06 GMT -5
That is certainly true on Ross, however Clay has also only had one good (not great) season, and he had that 5 years ago. When I'm betting on who would be the best bet to repeat that season, I'm taking the guy who did it last year at 27 and will be 28 next year as opposed to the guy who had that season at age 25, hasn't repeated it since, and will be 30 next year.
We can agree to disagree with the value that the Red Sox (as a big market) team should put on the contract for Ross. However, if we assume they want to stay within a budget of $200M (honestly, I think they want to stay below $189M and the luxury tax, and yes, I know Henry said they COULD go over to sign Lester), but lets agree upon $200M as a benchmark. That would currently leave us $17M to spend (factoring in $5M for a mid-season acquisition). I don't think Seattle would ever go for this deal, but say we could deal Cespedes straight up for Iwakuma, that gets us $2M for a net addition ($19M).
It looks as though to get Lester we'd need at least 6/$138M/$23M AAV, so that puts us already over an increased budget by $4M. You're also looking at three rotation spots as question marks because we have no idea what we're going to get next year from Buchholz, and even if he's good, you're probably only getting that for about 15 starts.
Regarding available bats on the market, I know 20hr was mentioned as a benchmark, but if you use something less arbitraty such as wRC+ (which is what most of the mods here use, so I'm going with it) Cespedes projection on Steamer next year is a wRC+ of 119. Justin Upton is reportedly avaialbe at a 126; Cruz at 119; Melky Cabrera at 116; Morse at 112; and Hunter at 107. That doesn't even include Aoki, Markakis and Rasmus who all project over a 100 wRC+, nor players like Morales that would be a first baseman / dh type. The bottom line is I just don't think Cespedes true value in the trade market is what a lot of people here are hypothesizing it would be.
If any of the Cespedes for Iwakuma, Porcello, Latos, Leake, Cashner, Ross or Samardzija deals really were on the table from the "other team's" perspective, I think Cherington would have already pulled the trigger on that, and Cespedes just isn't worth that much.
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Post by larrycook on Nov 30, 2014 23:14:41 GMT -5
If any of the Cespedes for Iwakuma, Porcello, Latos, Leake, Cashner, Ross or Samardzija deals really were on the table from the "other team's" perspective, I think Cherington would have already pulled the trigger on that, and Cespedes just isn't worth that much. I think cespedes does have a quantifiable value, however I think cherrington is waiting to see how the lester deals unfolds before pulling the trigger on any potential trades. I think signing lester or not signing lester moves cherrington down two entirely different paths. Ps: And don't forget, cherrington over values our prospects.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 30, 2014 23:47:52 GMT -5
Stop changing subjects. My points are to show you that your trade idea was crazy, like way over the top. Whether you would want Buch or Ross next year is not the point. Because your trade was Cespedes, Buch, Ranaudo, Brentz and Workman. So you need to prove/show that Ross is better then those 5 players, not just Buch. Trying to show you Cespedes value is high. I say only one free agent can be counted on to give you 20 or more homers next year. You then use wRC+ to prove my point, only Cruz projects to have an impact bat equal to Cespedes. Upton is not a free agent and it's reported they want a huge return to move him. So how does Cespedes not have good value? I'll say it again, Cespedes value is equal or almost equal to Ross's value. Clay might not have great value, but I would rather take the chance on him over Ross next year. Clay just has elite stuff. Now I go into next year with Clay as my number 5 starter.
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Dec 1, 2014 20:44:44 GMT -5
We just aren't going to agree on this, and that's fine, that's why its a message board. You're right, the only names "on the market" that are a decent bet to hit 20hr other than Cespedes are Cruz (now signed with the Ms) and Upton. However, I don't believe that the ability to hit 20hr necessarily matters when you're talking about value that we can expect to get back. The two teams that were just in the World Series had two 20hr hitters in their line-ups, combined. But we put a different "value" on the ability to hit 20hr, and what we think that is worth in terms of assets. The other thing to keep in mind about Cespedes is that I think we need to trade him. If not, he's taking at-bats away from some combination of Ramirez, Castillo, Betts and Ortiz, and I think of that having negative value to the Red Sox. I suppose we can just wait and see what Cespedes is traded for, but I don't think that on his own he's going to fetch a starting pitcher that projects to have a WAR above 2.0 (though I hope to be wrong).
Regarding Buchholz and the other three prospects I mentioned, you are likely right in that they could combine to get more WAR (just to give a value based statistic) than Ross. However I don't think of WAR as cumulative, so I'd argue that if Buccholz is a 1.5WAR pitcher, and the other three each average .5WAR each, they would worth more WAR (3) than Tyson Ross would put up if he repeated last season (2.6WAR), and while that's true, I think of the 2.6WAR player as being more "valuable" than four guys combining to give 3WAR. Especially since we currently don't have a pitcher on the entire roster that projects to have a WAR above 2.1 this coming season. If we set the projection of Buchholz WAR at 2.2 this season, I'd bet the under.
The team also currently has a 40-man roster crunch as well. We still need at least 2 starting pitchers, likely another arm for the bullpen, and a back up catcher. If Cespedes is a one for one trade, that brings it down to SP1, BP and C. Signing three free agents there would mean we'd have to cut three players, or package players. I think packaging players is the way to go, and I'd rather package them for a young player with multiple years of control.
Agree to disagree, I suppose. I don't expect to convince you to see it how I do (or vice versa) but I wanted to explain exactly where I was coming from there. I'm fine to let it go if you are and we can agree to disagree.
What about a friendly bet though. If we trade Cespedes and a players of a lesser prospect rank than Ranaudo (9) and get back someone with a higher WAR last season than Ross (2.6WAR) I'll make my avatar a picture of Cespedes until opening day. If we don't get back someone of that calibre (or have to really increase the pay out to get someone that high) you have to have a picture of Tyson Ross for the same duration?
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 2, 2014 3:27:57 GMT -5
I'll agree to that if we include had a WAR equal to or higher then 2.6 last year or projects to have one next year.
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Dec 2, 2014 7:16:41 GMT -5
Fair enough. Avatar bet it is. 2.6 last year or projected higher.
I hope you win though, because that means we've gotten a very good pitcher!
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Post by dmaineah on Dec 5, 2014 13:30:41 GMT -5
Ian Kennedy & Yasmani Grandal for Yoenis Céspedes, Will Middlebrooks & Jackie Bradley Jr
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Dec 5, 2014 13:51:22 GMT -5
Ian Kennedy & Yasmani Grandal for Yoenis Céspedes, Will Middlebrooks & Jackie Bradley Jr Where are you trading 1 of Swihart/Vazquez?
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Post by dmaineah on Dec 5, 2014 14:03:41 GMT -5
Ian Kennedy & Yasmani Grandal for Yoenis Céspedes, Will Middlebrooks & Jackie Bradley Jr Where are you trading 1 of Swihart/Vazquez? Don't need to worry about it until next year or at the earliest the trade deadline. Vazquez & Grandal split the duties this year.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 5, 2014 17:02:48 GMT -5
Ian Kennedy & Yasmani Grandal for Yoenis Céspedes, Will Middlebrooks & Jackie Bradley Jr Not sure I like this. I think Cespedes value in this market is more then Kennedy. So your trading Middlebrooks and Bradley for Grandal. I would love Grandal as my back up catcher, but don't want to trade Bradley for pennies on the dollar. Unless we plan on trading Swihart, I don't think its worth getting Grandal. Swihart might be in the majors by the all star break. Also not a fan of Kennedy, had a very solid season, I just see him as more of an NL pitcher.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 5, 2014 18:53:33 GMT -5
Ian Kennedy & Yasmani Grandal for Yoenis Céspedes, Will Middlebrooks & Jackie Bradley Jr Please stop posting trade proposals that are just players you don't want anymore for players who are good.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 5, 2014 20:49:18 GMT -5
Ian Kennedy & Yasmani Grandal for Yoenis Céspedes, Will Middlebrooks & Jackie Bradley Jr Please stop posting trade proposals that are just players you don't want anymore for players who are good. So Cespedes isn't good? Cespedes has more value then Kennedy, a lot more value. Tons of good pitchers on market, not many bats. Grandal is a good young catcher that has underperformed, similar to Bradley. Middlebrooks is just a wild card type guy. I wouldn't do the trade, not a huge Kennedy fan and don't see the need for Grandal with Swihart close to majors. That said seems like a fair trade. It's not like just because we don't want the players anymore, that they have no trade value.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 5, 2014 22:26:03 GMT -5
Grandal has a ton more upside than Bradley, Middlebrooks has no value, and the fact that everyone seems to be trying to include Cespdes in every trade proposal is pretty telling. The Pads, who are rebuilding, wouldn't do that deal even if you took Kennedy out of it.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 6, 2014 0:49:52 GMT -5
Grandal has a ton more upside than Bradley, Middlebrooks has no value, and the fact that everyone seems to be trying to include Cespdes in every trade proposal is pretty telling. The Pads, who are rebuilding, wouldn't do that deal even if you took Kennedy out of it. What do you think Grandals upside is? He has hit .216 and .225 over the last two years. This is a catcher known for his bat not his glove. He had a DWAR of -.7 last year. He did have a good 2012 in a limited amounts of AB's. A Career minor leaguer Rene Rivera played more games at catcher last year for a rebuilding Padres team. I know at one time he was a very good prospect, just like Bradley, but his # in the majors aren't good. I'd argue Bradley has more upside, he is elite in the field. He had a DWAR of 2.0 per ESPN. Who has a better chance of being a 3 plus WAR player in the near future? For me it's Bradley, he only needs to hit for league average, Grandal needs to become one of the best hitting catchers in baseball.
Everyone is trying to trade Cesepedes because it just makes sense given the current roster. That doesn't mean his value is low. I'll say it again, he is one of the few good bats left on the market. He has real value. Sure maybe the Padres don't want him, because they aren't looking to compete next year.
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Dec 6, 2014 19:28:42 GMT -5
The Padres are a decent match up for us, but more so from players that have multiple years of control and are "depth" for our 40 man and not those with just one season of control left. Think names like Nava, Craig, Buchholz, Webster, Workman and pretty much any of our prospects ranked between 6-15, a lot of these guys would be good candidates to make the Padres 25 man roster quite easily. I doubt they'd be looking to trade young and inexpensive players, which is why we continue to look at arb eligible playes like Kennedy (whom I don't want at all) and Ross and Cashner (both of whom I'd love to have). If we make a deal with them, I think those are more the players to look at, from both their side and ours, as they'd make sense from the San Diego perspective.
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