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International draft discussion
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 24, 2015 9:24:37 GMT -5
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 24, 2015 9:26:33 GMT -5
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 24, 2015 9:40:05 GMT -5
Whaaaa.... Sure it's not fair, but life isn't fair... It's not fair that most Cubans, Moncada aside, have to risk their lives to try to play baseball. It's not fair the Rays couldn't be involved in the Moncada bidding. It's not fair when teams take revenue sharing money and don't reinvest it in their teams. Countless things aren't fair. Stop whining and play.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 24, 2015 9:53:26 GMT -5
Whaaaa.... Sure it's not fair, but life isn't fair... It's not fair that most Cubans, Moncada aside, have to risk their lives to try to play baseball. It's not fair the Rays couldn't be involved in the Moncada bidding. It's not fair when teams take revenue sharing money and don't reinvest it in their teams. Countless things aren't fair. Stop whining and play. Not saying it's a social injustice. Just saying that the system is inherently flawed when where the player was born directly affects how much money he gets to sign. I've never quite understood why there was a draft for U.S. players and wasn't for international players. It's strange if you think about it. Again, not saying this is some travesty. Just that it's not a fair system. I bet we'll see an international draft in the next 3 or so years.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 24, 2015 10:01:25 GMT -5
There should be an international amateur draft, but I don't want there to be since I'm a fan of the Red Sox. Sone talk about combining them, but idk how you do that. When will an international player become eligible? 16? Then why does a U.S. Kid need to wait until done with HS? If the international player has to be 18 then what happens to those lost development years while they are in countries with less structure.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 24, 2015 10:05:19 GMT -5
Yeah, so do I. But we need to hate someone.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 24, 2015 10:07:42 GMT -5
Whaaaa.... Sure it's not fair, but life isn't fair... It's not fair that most Cubans, Moncada aside, have to risk their lives to try to play baseball. It's not fair the Rays couldn't be involved in the Moncada bidding. It's not fair when teams take revenue sharing money and don't reinvest it in their teams. Countless things aren't fair. Stop whining and play. Not saying it's a social injustice. Just saying that the system is inherently flawed when where the player was born directly affects how much money he gets to sign. I've never quite understood why there was a draft for U.S. players and wasn't for international players. It's strange if you think about it. Again, not saying this is some travesty. Just that it's not a fair system. I bet we'll see an international draft in the next 3 or so years. The price of buying the draft position is included for Moncada. I shudder to think of the disaster an international draft will be at first. I think they'd be better off with just one draft for all players in the world, with the same age rules.
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Post by GyIantosca on Feb 24, 2015 10:16:43 GMT -5
Can you imagine if we did things domestically like we do internationally? Baseball would be able to compete with the other leagues for talent across the board. But you would have to revamp a lot and do things like the NFL with a cap.
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Post by templeusox on Feb 24, 2015 10:38:54 GMT -5
Whaaaa.... Sure it's not fair, but life isn't fair... It's not fair that most Cubans, Moncada aside, have to risk their lives to try to play baseball. It's not fair the Rays couldn't be involved in the Moncada bidding. It's not fair when teams take revenue sharing money and don't reinvest it in their teams. Countless things aren't fair. Stop whining and play. Not saying it's a social injustice. Just saying that the system is inherently flawed when where the player was born directly affects how much money he gets to sign. I've never quite understood why there was a draft for U.S. players and wasn't for international players. It's strange if you think about it. Again, not saying this is some travesty. Just that it's not a fair system. I bet we'll see an international draft in the next 3 or so years. It truly isn't a fair system. For instance, how many 21-year Dominican or Venezuelan pitchers have ever received the $1.1M bonus Smyly received coming out of Arkansas? Because, unfortunately, that same unfair system looks at Latin players as washed up if they aren't stateside by the age of 19. So inequities really cut both ways.
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Post by myleskennefick on Feb 24, 2015 11:42:05 GMT -5
Why not have the MLB draft like the NHL draft? Everyone (foreign and domestic) is draft eligible when they turn 18, and if you're drafted the team holds your rights for 4 years
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Post by Oregon Norm on Feb 24, 2015 11:48:26 GMT -5
Not saying it's a social injustice. Just saying that the system is inherently flawed when where the player was born directly affects how much money he gets to sign. I've never quite understood why there was a draft for U.S. players and wasn't for international players. It's strange if you think about it. Again, not saying this is some travesty. Just that it's not a fair system. I bet we'll see an international draft in the next 3 or so years. It truly isn't a fair system. For instance, how many 21-year Dominican or Venezuelan pitchers have ever received the $1.1M bonus Smyly received coming out of Arkansas? Because, unfortunately, that same unfair system looks at Latin players as washed up if they aren't stateside by the age of 19. So inequities really cut both ways. Something I mentioned a while back was that this signing would expose the value of good young players to the marketplace. So it did. This conversation was bound to ensue from that. It really is time to start talking about more equity in the system, and the MLBPA needs to take a longer view. One of the other aspects of the BP article Hatfield quoted from worth discussing is the aging-performance curve, which has been shifting towards younger players. If enough teams take that to heart, then players in their age 29-30 seasons will be de-valued in that marketplace. It will simply be cheaper to take advantage of the inefficiency in properly pricing young talent. That already seems to be happening. But those older players are MLBPA's constituency, right? Given the lawsuit against MiLB working its way through the system, and the obvious conclusions we can draw about Moncada's value, it has to change. As painful as it may be for MLB, given the de-facto globalization of the game it's time to rework the rules for national and international talent, to align them and start paying fair value for good young talent. Add: This opinion piece by Adam Kilgore at the WA Post summarizes my case. It's one of the link's from the NBC post about Smyly, above.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 24, 2015 11:53:17 GMT -5
Why not have the MLB draft like the NHL draft? I don't want to get too deep into the international draft stuff for a number of reasons (it's only tangentially related to Moncada, I'm not really knowledgeable enough to get into a real debate about it, and it's a bummer in general), but the short answer to most of these questions is: the way business currently gets done in the Dominican is not compatible with a draft.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 24, 2015 12:00:42 GMT -5
Given the lawsuit against MiLB working its way through the system, and the obvious conclusions we can draw about Moncada's value, it has to change. As painful as it may be for MLB, given the de-facto globalization of the game it's time to rework the rules for national and international talent, to align them and start paying fair value for good young talent.There's maybe nothing MLB wants less than that, which is maybe the biggest long-term threat to the health of the game that exists today.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Feb 24, 2015 12:04:02 GMT -5
Given the lawsuit against MiLB working its way through the system, and the obvious conclusions we can draw about Moncada's value, it has to change. As painful as it may be for MLB, given the de-facto globalization of the game it's time to rework the rules for national and international talent, to align them and start paying fair value for good young talent.There's maybe nothing MLB wants less than that, which is maybe the biggest long-term threat to the health of the game that exists today. Like I said, it will be painful, and it will require a serious re-thinking of how teams and MLB operate. But that does seem to be where this is headed.
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Post by redsoxnh2014 on Feb 24, 2015 12:30:41 GMT -5
So do I regarding the concept that domestic players have to be drafted and international players can simply be bought, with resulting financial disparity.
However I do want to point one thing out: Would Drew Smyly have posted that tweet if Moncada signed with TB?
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 24, 2015 12:34:29 GMT -5
So do I regarding the concept that domestic players have to be drafted and international players can simply be bought, with resulting financial disparity.
However I do want to point one thing out: Would Drew Smyly have posted that tweet if Moncada signed with TB?
Nope, and that's where I was going with it.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 24, 2015 12:38:04 GMT -5
There's maybe nothing MLB wants less than that, which is maybe the biggest long-term threat to the health of the game that exists today. Like I said, it will be painful, and it will require a serious re-thinking of how teams and MLB operate. But that does seem to be where this is headed. It's hard for me to see any positive change coming in this area. It's obvious that the MLB owners are dead set on reducing the cost of amateur talent (and talent in general) and they don't care at all about any of the potential consequences. And, legal action on behalf of minor league ballplayers aside, they have a legal monopoly; They make the rules. Right now they're determined to make rules detrimental to amateur talent acquisition and I can't see anything that's going to stop them.
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Post by burythehammer on Feb 24, 2015 12:39:34 GMT -5
I don't see what that has to do with his point. He's not going to bad mouth a contract signed by his own team/a teammate publicly, yeah. Doesn't mean he's wrong or shouldn't speak his mind.
The irony is his sentiment is what's going to lead to a world draft and nobody getting Moncada money.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 24, 2015 12:45:42 GMT -5
I hate the model of old players making most of the money when they are basically embarrassing themselves half the time. I wish they could come up with a model that actually pays players what they are worth based on WAR or something similar with maybe signing bonuses to determine where free agents play for a set # of years. And there should probably be a lot more revenue sharing to pay the salaries so you don't run into budget problems where players have to be paid a lot more than budgeted.
But of course we know, neither MLBPA nor the owners would ever consider this. There is always a hierarchical setup in players unions. Put in the time, and you can be grossly overpaid too, so the young players don't complain.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Feb 24, 2015 13:05:53 GMT -5
International players generally sign for way less than domestic players.
If we gonna make it exactly the same I wonder if MLB will be funding scholarships for international players so that if they don't sign or aren't good enough for proball yet they can go to college get better and get re-drafted or if not have a post baseball career. It's only fair that we make it completely the same.
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Post by redsoxnh2014 on Feb 24, 2015 16:52:20 GMT -5
I don't see what that has to do with his point. He's not going to bad mouth a contract signed by his own team/a teammate publicly, yeah. Doesn't mean he's wrong or shouldn't speak his mind. The irony is his sentiment is what's going to lead to a world draft and nobody getting Moncada money. I wasn't saying he is wrong, I agree in general terms that all amateurs should have to come into MLB the same way, though doing that logistically with all the different markets may be tough. I was trying to emphasize the point though that to have a TB player offering an opinion on a RS player's contract isn't the most objective source. If the Chevy dealership turns you down for financing the same day your neighbor shows up with a shiny new Corvette you're the not the best person to offer an objective opinion on how Chevy sells its cars.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,770
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Post by mobaz on Feb 25, 2015 9:47:03 GMT -5
There needs to be a way to both reward investment in players (e.g., Red Sox pour resources into minors so players like Mookie can come up and play for cheap for a while) while also paying prime players for their prime performance. It's kind of absurd the way the free agent market prices in decline years (to get, say, the last 2 years of Panda's peak the Sox buy 3 years of decreasing performance, or much worse in the Crawford/Ellsbury type contracts)
The thing that really set me off on the overall baseball financial situation is Josh Donaldson losing in arbitration ($4.3M vs requested $5.7M). There's no scenario where he is not "worth" $5.7M; if he were a free agent only able to sign 1 year, teams would line up to pay him $20M or more for next season. The cartel system is no more evident than these arbitrations where the value is, well, really arbitrary. I actually wonder if more players going through hearings this year (and anecdotally more high-profile losses in arbitration) will affect the players' position heading into next CBA negotiations.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 25, 2015 10:54:17 GMT -5
Setting aside the moral/philosophical/economic issues...
Dave Cameron recently pointed out that there's really no point in having both a draft and a bonus pool. The point of a draft is nominally to provide competitive balance by funneling the best players to the worst teams, and really to depress the cost of signing amateur talent. The limited bonus pool accomplishes both of these things on it's own. So, given that the draft itself is currently redundant and that an international draft is a logistical nightmare, isn't the obvious solution to this problem to just get rid of the draft and create a unified bonus pool for American and international talent? It's a more elegant solution that addresses a lot of the "fairness" concerns we're hearing and allows players negotiate with all 30 teams while still keeping prices down, which would help avoid the incidents we've seen in the last few years of top draft picks declining to sign.
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