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Sox Catching Situation (3/30: Leon Acquired)
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Post by mattpicard on Mar 30, 2015 7:12:33 GMT -5
James Wagner @jameswagnerwp · 14m 14 minutes ago Sandy Leon says he's been traded to the Red Sox. Brian MacPherson @brianmacp · 5m 5 minutes ago LRT: Sandy Leon was out of options and not likely to make the Nationals' roster. Hit .229/.321/.371 at Triple-A Syracuse last year Here's an excerpt about him from Wagner in the Washington Post in January 2013: He just turned 26, and is a switch hitter with inconsistent splits.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Mar 30, 2015 7:41:33 GMT -5
The Sox are obviously doubling down on defense behind the plate, and should have the offense to absorb it; I like the move. Losing Vasquez seems to hurt what the Sox are doing but in the absence of some kind of regression from Hanigan he is a plus defender and should bring above average offense behind the plate. This might not be as debilitating as it seems, especially if Leon can give us good D and keep Hanigan fresh.
I admit I know very little about Leon, I've heard he is a good catcher with a plus arm, but how is his pitch framing skills?
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Post by southpaw12014 on Mar 30, 2015 8:04:18 GMT -5
I like it, Don't Jackie Bradley Swihart, give him a another couple AB's at the triple AAA level and fine tune that defense. The Sox are really deep from 1-8 in the line-up, no problem taking a mulligan in the 9 hole.
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Post by mattpicard on Mar 30, 2015 8:04:41 GMT -5
The Sox are obviously doubling down on defense behind the plate, and should have the offense to absorb it; I like the move. Losing Vasquez seems to hurt what the Sox are doing but in the absence of some kind of regression from Hanigan he is a plus defender and should bring above average offense behind the plate. This might not be as debilitating as it seems, especially if Leon can give us good D and keep Hanigan fresh. I admit I know very little about Leon, I've heard he is a good catcher with a plus arm, but how is his pitch framing skills?After the 2013 season, courtesy of BP:
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Post by greatscottcooper on Mar 30, 2015 8:14:53 GMT -5
The Sox are obviously doubling down on defense behind the plate, and should have the offense to absorb it; I like the move. Losing Vasquez seems to hurt what the Sox are doing but in the absence of some kind of regression from Hanigan he is a plus defender and should bring above average offense behind the plate. This might not be as debilitating as it seems, especially if Leon can give us good D and keep Hanigan fresh. I admit I know very little about Leon, I've heard he is a good catcher with a plus arm, but how is his pitch framing skills?After the 2013 season, courtesy of BP: Thank you! This has me feeling more optimistic about the situation for sure.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Mar 30, 2015 8:43:18 GMT -5
The Sox are obviously doubling down on defense behind the plate, and should have the offense to absorb it; I like the move. Losing Vasquez seems to hurt what the Sox are doing but in the absence of some kind of regression from Hanigan he is a plus defender and should bring above average offense behind the plate. This might not be as debilitating as it seems, especially if Leon can give us good D and keep Hanigan fresh. I admit I know very little about Leon, I've heard he is a good catcher with a plus arm, but how is his pitch framing skills?After the 2013 season, courtesy of BP: Well, that certainly seems optimistic ... from that and some other stuff I read, he seems like Vazquez without the offensive upside and 50%+CS rate. Which isn't, you know, Christian Vazquez, but it's a pretty good emergency recovery. At first blush, I like this a lot but need to see the cost, of course.
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 30, 2015 9:00:59 GMT -5
No word on the cost? I'll guess not much considering he'd be on waivers in a few weeks.
I'm really bummed about Vazquez.
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Post by panikl on Mar 30, 2015 9:04:25 GMT -5
I feel optimistic as I like the move to go with defense-first guy. And I think we do have enough offensive to carry. But I am curious who needs to go. As of Position players I could only think about Sean Coyle or Bryce Brentz. However, I would prefer one of the bullpen guys.
e: ah, forgot about vazquez going on to DL. no roster move required.
Pete Abraham ?@peteabe 3 Min.Vor 3 Minuten
#RedSox announce catcher Sandy Leon was acquired from the Nationals for cash. Vazquez to 60-day DL.
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Post by JackieWilsonsaid on Mar 30, 2015 9:16:31 GMT -5
this was the perfect move. No cost and keeps a similar plan in place as they had with Vasquez.
I just hope it warms up quickly enough up here so Swihart gets in some sound work at the bucket.
I'm guessing he may be ready by mid june and could b a significant mid year upgrade (along with a pitcher or three internally as well).
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Post by azblue on Mar 30, 2015 9:26:15 GMT -5
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Mar 30, 2015 9:31:20 GMT -5
this was the perfect move. No cost and keeps a similar plan in place as they had with Vasquez. I just hope it warms up quickly enough up here so Swihart gets in some sound work at the bucket. I'm guessing he may be ready by mid june and could b a significant mid year upgrade (along with a pitcher or three internally as well). Let's not guess, and let's be conservative about this. Keep Swihart in AAA through the Major League AS break at a minimum. Treat him essentially as a trade deadline acquisition. And THAT'S assuming that he does really well at AAA. You never know but what he might suffer a regression/lack of progress, especially offensively, and we won't see him until September.
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Post by jrffam05 on Mar 30, 2015 10:03:02 GMT -5
We weren't going to get a catcher with any serious upside, at least without giving up a lot in return. So to get a guy who is above average defensively for cash only is a great move. I honestly know nothing about this guy, and am only calling him above average based on the previous posts.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Mar 30, 2015 10:12:36 GMT -5
No word on the cost? I'll guess not much considering he'd be on waivers in a few weeks. I'm really bummed about Vazquez. I understand. He was obviously a big part of the plans the team has, given the pitching staff they've assembled. Injuries are part of the game, though. The idea is to have the depth to deal with it. The acquisition of Hannigan which had a few people upset at the time because it dispatched Middlebrooks off to San Diego, looks crucial from this angle. I'm more concerned about the evaluation Vazquez has gotten at this point. What sort of injury is it, and what's the prognosis? Water under the bridge, but I did wonder after the season ended last year if it was wise to have Vazquez continue on through a relatively full season of winter ball. Oh well.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Mar 30, 2015 10:25:40 GMT -5
Man, just for cash? What's not to like about this? I mean, it's not like Sandy Leon is a savior here, but this move really takes a good chunk of the edge off the mini-crisis, that's for sure. I'm hoping this works out and Swihart gets as much time as needed in AAA this year to finish off the development.
The Dan Butler connection here is kinda amusing after the lamenting of his absence over the last couple days ...
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 30, 2015 10:25:58 GMT -5
No word on the cost? I'll guess not much considering he'd be on waivers in a few weeks. I'm really bummed about Vazquez. I understand. He was obviously a big part of the plans the team has, given the pitching staff they've assembled. Injuries are part of the game, though. The idea is to have the depth to deal with it. The acquisition of Hannigan which had a few people upset at the time because it dispatched Middlebrooks off to San Diego, looks crucial from this angle. I'm more concerned about the evaluation Vazquez has gotten at this point. What sort of injury is it, and what's the prognosis? Water under the bridge, but I did wonder after the season ended last year if it was wise to have Vazquez continue on through a relatively full season of winter ball. Oh well. Yeah, I realize they're positioned quite well to handle it. I was more bummed for Vazquez on a personal level. I'm sure he's very disappointed. I remember balling my eyes out when I broke my arm before my junior season of high school just because I loved baseball so much.
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Post by jmei on Mar 30, 2015 10:33:20 GMT -5
In the Red Sox official announcement of the deal, the return cost was announced as cash considerations.
Great, great little deal. Leon's defense gives him a pretty high floor despite what will likely be pretty bad offense. I think there's still an open question over whether they would call up Swihart if Hanigan suffers a medium/long-term injury during the first half of the season, but now they won't have to call up Swihart if Hanigan suffers a short-term injury or if Quintero gets injured, which, given the acquisition cost, is hard to argue against.
This move does suggest that Vazquez is almost certainly going under the knife for Tommy John surgery, but most of us suspected that.
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 30, 2015 10:47:04 GMT -5
In the Red Sox official announcement of the deal, the return cost was announced as cash considerations. Great, great little deal. Leon's defense gives him a pretty high floor despite what will likely be pretty bad offense. I think there's still an open question over whether they would call up Swihart if Hanigan suffers a medium/long-term injury during the first half of the season, but now they won't have to call up Swihart if Hanigan suffers a short-term injury or if Quintero gets injured, which, given the acquisition cost, is hard to argue against. This move does suggest that Vazquez is almost certainly going under the knife for Tommy John surgery, but most of us suspected that. The 60-day DL move I think removes any doubt. I love the deal as well.
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Post by mgoetze on Mar 30, 2015 10:48:56 GMT -5
Funny, in the other thread people were clamoring for us to trade away serious prospects for a high-quality starter and now everyone's applauding the acquisition of someone who might be a replacement-level catcher.
Don't get me wrong - I'm a big believer in pitch framing and the Nats may well be one of the teams that just hasn't figured that out. But Hanigan is no slouch at that either, and meanwhile he has a career 90 wRC+. Sandy Leon, on the other hand, has a career 53 wRC+. The projections, of course, like him to regress to the mean, with ZiPS optimistically hoping for 69 wRC+. This works largely because guys tend to stay in the minors if scouts don't believe they are going to crack the Mendoza line in the big leagues. Leon likely wasn't going to be in the big leagues if this hadn't happened. In other words, 69 wRC+ is probably too optimistic.
On the other hand, I am happy to believe that he is a better backup for Hanigan than Quintero, and who knows, maybe he will figure out hitting after all, in which case this would be an absolute steal.
But allow me to point out that this does not really mitigate the Hanigan injury risk factor, as neither Leon nor Quintero have options and I can't see the Sox keeping both of them on the 25-man roster.
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Post by moonstone2 on Mar 30, 2015 10:57:29 GMT -5
It seems to me that he's the very definition of a replacement level catcher.
Assuming that Vazquez really does need Tommy John, it unfortunately removes a very valuable potential trade chip. I had advocated in the past that the Red Sox trade Vazquez this past off-season to strike while the iron was hot, figuring that they could get a good enough second catcher to go with Hanigan and hold the fort until Swihart was ready. Part of the reason for this, is that I was afraid of something like this happening.
Hindsight is of course 20/20, but I think that they made a mistake by holding on to two young catchers this past off-season. I also thought that maybe they could have offered Carson Blair more money to stay in AA and add to the depth.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Mar 30, 2015 10:58:11 GMT -5
But allow me to point out that this does not really mitigate the Hanigan injury risk factor, as neither Leon nor Quintero have options and I can't see the Sox keeping both of them on the 25-man roster. I don't think that's the major risk factor in a Hanigan injury ... the real issue would be if Hanigan got injured on May 1st, and his backup was Quintero with the next in line being Swihart. You'd be forced to call up Swihart before he's ready ... Now, they can keep Quintero in AAA, Leon in MLB, and if Hanigan is injured, you just call up Quintero. I mean, you're left with really terrible offense at the catcher position, but what are you gonna do? It's not like you can go three deep on decent starting catchers who can hold their own at the plate.
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Post by mgoetze on Mar 30, 2015 11:02:12 GMT -5
Now, they can keep Quintero in AAA, Leon in MLB, and if Hanigan is injured, you just call up Quintero. I mean, you're left with really terrible offense at the catcher position, but what are you gonna do? It's not like you can go three deep on decent starting catchers who can hold their own at the plate. Hm, I missed that Quintero is on a minor league contract. Does he have an opt-out?
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Post by blizzards39 on Mar 30, 2015 11:17:28 GMT -5
Now, they can keep Quintero in AAA, Leon in MLB, and if Hanigan is injured, you just call up Quintero. I mean, you're left with really terrible offense at the catcher position, but what are you gonna do? It's not like you can go three deep on decent starting catchers who can hold their own at the plate. Hm, I missed that Quintero is on a minor league contract. Does he have an opt-out? I highly rout there will be a lineup for Quintero. But he sure might be a good tutor for Swihart in Pawtucket......... I'm comfortable with this situation now. The FO is obviously looking a defence and pitch framing at the position. Probably the easiest way to improve you overall pitching staff. Lets just hope Swihart tears up AAA and that Vazquez fully recovers.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Mar 30, 2015 11:34:25 GMT -5
Now, they can keep Quintero in AAA, Leon in MLB, and if Hanigan is injured, you just call up Quintero. I mean, you're left with really terrible offense at the catcher position, but what are you gonna do? It's not like you can go three deep on decent starting catchers who can hold their own at the plate. Hm, I missed that Quintero is on a minor league contract. Does he have an opt-out? Haven't heard of one ... would be shocked if he does. He has no real value unless he's AAA depth (and possible Swihart mentor) with a "break glass in case of emergency" role for the major league team edit to add: should note that there is one issue, in that the Sox would have to purchase his contract and then couldn't yo-yo him up and down like they could've with a Dan Butler. But that's a fairly minor point in the grand scheme of things.
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Post by jmei on Mar 30, 2015 11:35:58 GMT -5
Funny, in the other thread people were clamoring for us to trade away serious prospects for a high-quality starter and now everyone's applauding the acquisition of someone who might be a replacement-level catcher. Don't get me wrong - I'm a big believer in pitch framing and the Nats may well be one of the teams that just hasn't figured that out. But Hanigan is no slouch at that either, and meanwhile he has a career 90 wRC+. Sandy Leon, on the other hand, has a career 53 wRC+. The projections, of course, like him to regress to the mean, with ZiPS optimistically hoping for 69 wRC+. This works largely because guys tend to stay in the minors if scouts don't believe they are going to crack the Mendoza line in the big leagues. Leon likely wasn't going to be in the big leagues if this hadn't happened. In other words, 69 wRC+ is probably too optimistic. I don't think there's too much overlap between those two groups of posters. Leon's 53 wRC+ comes in all of 107 PAs, and he's got a career minor league line of .236/.324/.329. That's still pretty bad, but it's not unrosterably bad, and it's not like Leon is a guy who they pulled up from Single-A or anything-- he'd been in the majors before and would have gotten additional major league playing time whether or not the Red Sox traded for him. He's got a .257/.358/.414 career AAA line (albeit in just 257 PAs), and while he doesn't impact the baseball (well below-average BABIPs and ISOs), he also makes a decent amount of contact (minor league career 16% strikeout rate) and is willing to take a walk (minor league career 10.5% BB). His scouting reports aren't glowing offensively, but there's been at least some optimism about his bat.
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Post by moonstone2 on Mar 30, 2015 11:43:39 GMT -5
Man, just for cash? What's not to like about this? I mean, it's not like Sandy Leon is a savior here, but this move really takes a good chunk of the edge off the mini-crisis, that's for sure. I'm hoping this works out and Swihart gets as much time as needed in AAA this year to finish off the development. The Dan Butler connection here is kinda amusing after the lamenting of his absence over the last couple days ... I haven't seen any of the Dan Butler lamenting and I am not saying you are Brian, but for those if any that are...think of the problem this way. There is no question that Dan Butler is a better player than Sandy Leon. However letting Butler go, opened up a 40 man spot and we did get a player for him. So the question becomes if there is a player on the 40 man roster that you would ever pair with Leon, and Rosenbaum in a trade to get Butler and cash? For myself anyways with the exception of Layne the answer is absolutely not. In Layne's case, it's probably not. Even in hindsight, letting Butler go looks like a good move. The only question for me is if Lobaton was available and what that would have taken. Lobaton and Leon look like very similar players, although Lobaton is more experienced.
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