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What Can Be Done to Fix the Sox?
danr
Veteran
Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Jun 1, 2015 11:22:01 GMT -5
It seems like the right time to make this subject a separate thread. The topic is beginning to dominate the game threads.
Except for Pedroia, the veteran position players (Napoli, Ortiz, Sandoval and Ramirez) are not hitting as expected (except maybe for Ramirez but then there is another problem with him).
The young players, Betts, Bogaerts and Swihart are doing reasonably well but not hitting enough to offset the lack of production from the others. Castillo still is pretty much of an unknown, so far not very impressive.
The starting pitching has been pretty bad with some recent improvement. The bullpen, which started out poorly, has become quite decent, but not exceptional.
There seems to be no part of this team showing championship qualities.
What should be done? Realistically, what can be done?
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Post by mattpicard on Jun 1, 2015 11:42:01 GMT -5
Wait it out? All of the veterans save for Napoli and Ortiz are tied up for years (and Ortiz isn't getting traded/released), and trading some of the prospects/young guys for a top-of-the-rotation pitcher doesn't make sense, especially considering one good pitcher isn't going to cure what's ailing this team.
Canning Farrell and Cherington would make sense from a "the team's failed and we're going to show that won't be tolerated" standpoint, but as much as JF drives me crazy, neither him nor Ben is at fault for Ortiz, Napoli, etc. faltering the way they have. Management isn't why veterans who were unanimously expected to hit at an above average level have completely failed to do so.
Trading Napoli would make some sense in that you could shift immediately Hanley to first base. While he has to get better in the outfield, I think it's safe to say he'll never be better than "below average" out there, and that may be overly optimistic. Thus far, it's been a major problem. I know many view him as a straight-to-DH candidate, but if Ortiz can come back alive a bit and remain a potent hitter vs. RHP's I wouldn't be opposed to Hanley becoming the primary first baseman. He probably wouldn't be stellar over there, and would suffer from the occasional lapse, but his range wouldn't fail the way it has in left, and he has plenty of infield experience to have the hands for the position.
Other than that, just continue playing Betts, Rusney, Bogaerts, and Swihart close to full time. They're our future, and basically the best guys in the organization right now to man their respective positions. Hopefully they continue to grow more comfortable and improve. Nudge Sandoval into hitting LH full-time, even when his knee is completely healed. It's flat out stupid at this point for him not to. Become more firm with Hanley when we attribute his blatant laziness in left to "inexperience." Start platooning Ortiz a bunch, but don't lose sight of the fact that he's still as good a hitter as we have against RHP's.
Let E-Rod stay in the rotation, even if he has some hiccups, until he runs into major difficulties. Make room. Consider Johnson if Kelly can't grasp any sort of consistency in the next couple starts, or if Wright is more meh than good. Release Justin Masterson. Pray that the non-Holt and Pedroia hitters start gravitating towards a more typical BABIP.
Other than that, not sure how much you can do.
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Post by sibbysisti on Jun 1, 2015 12:09:53 GMT -5
I suggested a Napoli trade in the Trade Forum moving Hanley to 1B and playing Peguero more in LF. The Sox can't continue with Hanley botching baseball on a regular basis.
Masterson needs to go to the pen if his velocity doesn't improve. He's overmatched by LHHs.
Like to find a landing spot for Victorino in another city. If Nava continues his unproductively after he returns from the DL, he goes too. Bradley is putting up impressive numbers in Pawtucket. He should be given another chance before a decision is made to move him.
And, I wouldn't trade any of our top prospects for rentals or Hamels.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 1, 2015 12:18:42 GMT -5
Before the season started, I never expected anyone to say they want Peguero in LF at any point. He's a guy we just got for nothing. Do you think he's worth anything?
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jun 1, 2015 12:33:03 GMT -5
And, I wouldn't trade any of our top prospects for rentals or Hamels. I would respectfully disagree here. They are, miraculously, only 4 games out and the division appears to be wide open. Given the current playoff format, I think a trade that could help this team should be considered strongly. I wouldn't let go of any of the young guys currently playing on the big league roster, but if I was GM, I would strongly consider trading some of the top prospect depth for help this year to get us into the playoffs. The only ones I wouldn't consider would be Moncada or Devers.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 1, 2015 12:34:57 GMT -5
Honestly, I'm starting to think it's a lost year. I'd rather they just try to rip it apart as much as possible and see what you can get for Napoli, Victorino, Craig, Nava (obviously not a lot for any of them) as well as Sandoval (his inability to hit left-handed pitchers is beyond scary moving forward), Koji (maybe Seattle with the way Rodney is pitching), Miley, and Porcello. I'd also send Kelly to AAA to work on his mechanics as a starter as he has the potential to be very good.
At this point, I'm comfortable with a rotation of Johnson, Wright, Rodriguez, Buchholz, and a 5th starter off waiver, Owens (though I'd rather he figure things out in AAA) or one of Porcello or Miley if one isn't moved.
Again, I know it's "only June 1st", but this team hasn't given me any hope that they can rebound and I'd rather get the kids more experience, build some future assets, save some salary and get a high draft pick.
I have a quitters mentality.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 1, 2015 12:37:41 GMT -5
And, I wouldn't trade any of our top prospects for rentals or Hamels. I would respectfully disagree here. They are, miraculously, only 4 games out and the division appears to be wide open. Given the current playoff format, I think a trade that could help this team should be considered strongly. I wouldn't let go of any of the young guys currently playing on the big league roster, but if I was GM, I would strongly consider trading some of the top prospect depth for help this year to get us into the playoffs. The only ones I would consider would be Moncada or Devers. Though they're "only 4 behind", my philosophy is to get to .500 and then worry about how many games behind you are. This team has really not shown an ability to win consecutive series and have yet to sweep a team this season. At 7 games under .500, this is just getting to the point of sad. Even if they squeak in by some miracle they aren't going to beat anyone.
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Post by marrcus on Jun 1, 2015 12:38:57 GMT -5
Napoli is gone if he can create a few suitors with some sustained hitting. I have no confidence though that Hanley could play an average 1b. But I would guess he's going to be there in '16.
While it's unrealistic to think they would ever move Pedroia, if a contender badly needed a 2b you would have to consider it, if just to move a longterm contract of a player in decline. Buchholz could also be moved?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 1, 2015 13:00:23 GMT -5
There's not much that can be done. I kind of agree with Matt Picard.
My philosophy is the same as RedSoxfan2 in that I really don't want to hear about games behind in the standings until the Sox actually reach and get over .500. Honestly, as close as they are to 1st in the AL East is about as close as they are to the Oakland A's record, which is the worst in the league.
Win games first. See what happens.
If they don't, then the only move I can really think of is to deal Mike Napoli and hope he has some value. If the team is dead, then I don't see the problem with handing Hanley a 1b glove. Just grin and bare it. If you're anywhere near a pennant race, you would never do that and you'd wait until 2016, but if they're out of it, there's no reason not to try it. Assuming Hanley is at 1b, DH Peguero is Ortiz isn't hitting lefties. Sit Sandoval down against lefties and let Holt have those ABs and have him continue to move around as needed.
Then you promote Jackie Bradley Jr. and put him in CF and shift Betts over to RF, and have Castillo in LF. The Red Sox need to know what they have in Castillo. Bradley needs to get another opportunity to show that he's a much better hitter than he was in 2014. The sample size he had in 2015 is very inadequate.
If the Sox climb back in it and are above .500, then you look into a Hamels deal, or perhaps Cueto, but the Sox can't give up too much trying to be the 1973 Mets. If the Sox are dead in the water, then of course a Hamels deal makes no sense, and the Sox have to look at signing a top notch starter next season, especially if their first pick is protected.
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Post by jdb on Jun 1, 2015 13:04:25 GMT -5
Way to early to think about selling too much can happen between now and July 31st. We have to ride this out for the next 6 weeks to make a decision on what to do at the deadline. Like another poster said if we're in it the only two prospects I wouldn't trade are Moncado and Devers but to give up a Margot or Owens type it's not for a rental.
If it's more of the same I think Napoli could be dealt and one of the Texas teams could be interested in Buch if he's pitching decent.
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Post by sibbysisti on Jun 1, 2015 13:47:05 GMT -5
Saint Louis needs a first baseman.....now.
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Post by mgoetze on Jun 1, 2015 13:49:55 GMT -5
Saint Louis needs a first baseman.....now. They can have Allen Craig back for a bag of baseballs. Heck, make it for free and we'll throw in the bag of baseballs too.
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Post by down225 on Jun 1, 2015 14:24:26 GMT -5
I would not consider making any significant changes in the player end of the organization. Minor changes as in shuffling the lineup or positions, or bringing up some players from Pawtucket could help a little. Possibly move some unneeded players for prospects may help somewhat in the long run. Unfortunately, I don't think any of those things, even cumulatively, will make enough of a difference. What the team needs (IMO) is leadership that inspires!
Many have said the division is wide open. I agree. But it's also open to all the other teams in the ALE. And I don't expect a wild card coming from the ALE. So what are the odds that the Sox can leapfrog 4 other teams who, up to now, are playing better baseball than the Sox? It's either stand pat (more or less), or make the bold move for new, more inspiring leadership. What's there lose at this point?
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Post by Guidas on Jun 1, 2015 14:35:06 GMT -5
Hit the baseball into fair territory where the opposing team's fielders cannot reach it. Take a base-on-balls if hittable pitches do not present themselves within the strike zone before four balls out of the zone do.
Pitch the ball in such a way that, after nine innings, the Red Sox have at least one more run than the team they are playing. Make all the routine plays in the field and, when at all possible, an extraordinary play.
All of the above is doubly important to execute when playing teams in the AL East, as it has a pronounced effect on the standings, and they all suck too and thus should be easier to beat.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 15:14:48 GMT -5
Between Hanley, Pablo, Porcello, Castillo, Craig and Miley, the Sox have 84.5 million worth of bad guaranteed 2016 contracts. Barring a Nick Punto Trade Part Deux, it could take a while to extricate ourselves from the hole we've dug for ourselves.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jun 1, 2015 15:21:08 GMT -5
Between Hanley, Pablo, Porcello, Castillo, Craig and Miley, the Sox have 84.5 million worth of bad guaranteed 2016 contracts. Barring a Nick Punto Trade Part Deux, it could take a while to extricate ourselves from the hole we've dug for ourselves. Those aren't all going to be bad contracts. It's possible none of them will be.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 1, 2015 15:23:47 GMT -5
Between Hanley, Pablo, Porcello, Castillo, Craig and Miley, the Sox have 84.5 million worth of bad guaranteed 2016 contracts. All you've done here is list every player with a non-arb, guaranteed deal next year other than Pedroia, Koji, and Hanigan and added their salaries. I mean, Castillo has played 17 major league games and you're already saying he's a bad contract? Come on now.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 1, 2015 15:26:59 GMT -5
Between Hanley, Pablo, Porcello, Castillo, Craig and Miley, the Sox have 84.5 million worth of bad guaranteed 2016 contracts. Barring a Nick Punto Trade Part Deux, it could take a while to extricate ourselves from the hole we've dug for ourselves. What do they need the money for? To go out and replace them with similar players?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 15:29:27 GMT -5
Between Hanley, Pablo, Porcello, Castillo, Craig and Miley, the Sox have 84.5 million worth of bad guaranteed 2016 contracts. All you've done here is list every player with a non-arb, guaranteed deal next year other than Pedroia, Koji, and Hanigan and added their salaries. I mean, Castillo has played 17 major league games and you're already saying he's a bad contract? Come on now. It'll be interesting to see opinions as to the FMV of these six guys at season's end. I think the Sox will be lucky if, collectively, these players are worth 2/3 of their remaining guaranteed money.
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Post by charliezink16 on Jun 1, 2015 15:30:12 GMT -5
Pretty much what Matt, guidas, and FTHW said. There really isn't much that can be done at this point. All we can do it wait it out for the next month or two (barring some minor moves) and see where we stand near the deadline. If we've turned it around, go get some pieces. If we're hovering around .500, a 2012-esque deadline seems reasonable. If we are...well like we are now, then sell.
The only thing I'd advocate for is for Ben to abandon the "depth first" strategy. I personally like how he constructed the roster with depth built for a 162 game season, but that's meaningless when you're losing ground quickly. If that means calling up Johnson & a Masterson DFA, do it. If that means calling up someone like Noe, Diaz, or Hembree and cutting Breslow, do it. Depth doesn't mean much when your team is garbage.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 15:35:09 GMT -5
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jun 1, 2015 15:38:06 GMT -5
We've got 4 guys learning on the job; Xander, Mookie, Blake and Castillo. Either stick with them. I would. Or, deal them for veterans. I wouldn't. We might be in for a bridge "couple" of years. I think once we get Hanley at DH. We won't be griping about him. Damon struggled in 02 before filling the hole he was signed for CF/Leadoff. Hope Pedey doesn't get frustrated while the young guys develop. And, Sandoval/Hanley get acclimated. We need to find a big-time LH bat at 1b or LF to replace Papi. Devers is probably 3 years away.
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,826
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Post by steveofbradenton on Jun 1, 2015 15:42:09 GMT -5
I've mentioned this before, trade Nap and move Ramirez to 1st. If there is anyway his contract is to work-out, it is not in left field. He is killing us out there! Let the kids that are already up play everyday, and bring Johnson up now and put him in the rotation. Move Ortiz (playing only against right handed pitching) and Sandoval down in the line-up. Go with a great defensive outfield in Bradley in center, Betts in right, and Castillo in left. Cut down the number of outs! Try to put together a "lights-out" bullpen by adding Kelly to the back end with Koji, Tazawa, and (maybe) Barnes and Alexi. Release Breslow and Masterson.
As much as I like Mike Napoli, he is the only positional player we have that: 1) we will probably consider trading, and 2) has some value, and 3) will be a free agent and not be back
I would trade for Hamels only if they would consider a collection of players like Owens, Margot, and Cechini. I firmly believe, after resisting the idea, that we need to invest in an ace by July 31st or this winter. I thought Cherington's idea was a good one, but those kind of pitchers don't grow on trees and definitely not in our farm system. I'm visualizing a peace offering to David Price presented by Big Papi (if we extend him).
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jun 1, 2015 15:43:55 GMT -5
Hamels has been pitching very well lately also. I have to admit I would love to see him on our roster. But not at the price of Eduardo, his 1 start was too tantilizing, even if just SSS. You hope that he is the pitching stud that everyone pays attention to when he gets the ball.
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Post by jmei on Jun 1, 2015 15:43:55 GMT -5
Pretty much what Matt, guidas, and FTHW said. There really isn't much that can be done at this point. All we can do it wait it out for the next month or two (barring some minor moves) and see where we stand near the deadline. If we've turned it around, go get some pieces. If we're hovering around .500, a 2012-esque deadline seems reasonable. If we are...well like we are now, then sell. The only thing I'd advocate for is for Ben to abandon the "depth first" strategy. I personally like how he constructed the roster with depth built for a 162 game season, but that's meaningless when you're losing ground quickly. If that means calling up Johnson & a Masterson DFA, do it. If that means calling up someone like Noe, Diaz, or Hembree and cutting Breslow, do it. Depth doesn't mean much when your team is garbage. I agree with this entirely. From a big picture point of view, there's not much to do until the trade deadline, at which point they buy if they're in it and sell if they're not. From a more nit-picky point of view, I'd give Masterson another one or two rehab starts. If he doesn't look meaningfully better than he has in his first rehab start and to start the year, he gets DFAed. His rotation spot goes to Rodriguez (Wright gets optioned once they go back to a 5-man rotation). Breslow gets DFAed and replaced by one of the above names. You can tweak the lineup some-- for instance, sit Ortiz and Sandoval a little more versus lefties (with Holt at 3B and an outfield of Betts, Castillo, Victorino). But none of that is likely to make a big difference. Your guys just have to play better-- simple as that.
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