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What Can Be Done to Fix the Sox?
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Post by James Dunne on Jul 24, 2015 23:10:00 GMT -5
Your question is legitimate: Hembree is on the MLB disabled list. He was called up in early June and tweaked his shoulder, and today's appearance for the PawSox is part of a rehab stink that started about a week ago. He's kind of flown under the radar with the unfortunate exception of the time he got called up for a day in April and was crushed. He's been quite good with the PawSox this year, you're right.
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Post by brockholtsuperstar on Jul 24, 2015 23:19:00 GMT -5
Alright cool, knew he was back in Pawtucket, hope to see him sometime soon, and do what Alex Wilson did at the end of 2014
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Post by telson13 on Jul 25, 2015 1:20:44 GMT -5
The problem is what needs to be done, and what flies in this market, are not one and the same. Dumping Sandoval/Ramirez is going to get cheaper and cheaper as they get deeper into their contracts and there is less salary to eat. And they might improve from being the worst players at their positions to average, or at least better at different positions. So as bad as it looks now, you've got to lie in the bed you made and bear them out. In the immediate... trade Koji to a contender for some organizational depth. I like Taz but we've rode the guy hard over the past two years, if someone is hard after him then that would be a trigger worth pulling. Vic and Napoli, shake their hands and cut them loose so they can go sit on the back of bench for a WS contender. Those guys are A+ and I think the goodwill is more valuable than some 24 year old in A ball. I like Miley. You know he's going show up every start and he's going to be consistently mediocre. He's gonna pitch quickly and act like an angry hick and stay in the game when he's getting shelled. But we have a lot of LHP, so if we could find someone who has a lot of something we really need and needs a reliable back end guy then that trade would be worth exploring. I would explore trading Javier Guerra before he gets eaten up by more advanced pitching, and Margot if the return is strong enough to dictate it (a cost-controlled front end pitcher in the right age range like Julio Teheran). Devers and Espinoza should not be touched. I think the organization needs to rethink their total aversion to low value positions. The general thought process that first basemen/low defensive spectrum players and relief pitchers aren't worth developing and should be stiffs off the street is taken too far to the extreme. Sam Travis is the only credible 1B in the system, Pat Light the only reliever. I agree very much with this post. By and large, me too. I think they have a few more potentially viable relief arms (Younginer, Mercedes, Barnes, Aro), and I'd explore trading Naps (who's getting hot) and Victorino to contenders, not simply releasing them, but for the most part, yup.
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Post by telson13 on Jul 25, 2015 1:46:58 GMT -5
Well actually, the outlier was a pretty big success and did come first. So what you are really saying is that Ben should have realized that 2013 was a complete fluke and changed his strategies. Plus the fact that Ben could continue to do what he is doing (signing second-tier and below guys for shorter deals and keeping his prospects) and have success if the prospects develop as we all think they will. To me, the real issue for Ben is that when he took over, he was faced with what happened to be a pretty barren farm system, particularly with reagrd to the upper tiers. Until X came up, the Sox got virtually nothing out of their farm system (except being able to get out of the Crawford/AGon contracts) and wasn't able to develop any major league pitching. In the current state of team building (IMO), a hole like that is extremely difficult to overcome in the FA market on a regular basis. I don't think Ben should be fired but he's in a profession that gets measured on wins and losses, so whether or not all of his moves were defensible, I wouldn't be surprised if Henry fires him. And I suspect that if Ben gets fired, he will say basically the same thing that Nieves said when he was let go. Nope. I'm saying Ben's tenure as GM from late '11 through to '15 looks pretty similar in a lot of ways to me, including bringing up players who weren't ready, trading away good talent for bad and, sloppy play in the field, and poor evaluation of pitching. Granted, Ben inherited a big mess and got a great do-over in 12. But if he gets credit for being part of the org before and making great player development decisions then he shares blame for the same mistakes, including not being able to draft or trade for and develop a single starter worth a damn since Buchholz except for Rodriguez. And I am putting that within the context of The Cardinals - whom this organization has repeatedly and publicly said they are trying to emulate going back to around 2010 or 11. My opinion, but I did go back and look at the transaction pages on this site from 2010 forward. Lot of similarities. Or do people here not believe Crawford and, say, Panda or Hanely, don't look like Deja Vu? Bobby Jenks anyone? Andrew Bailey? Joel Hanrahan? I mean we've gone over this ground. You guys want to defend this front office, fine. I'm of the opinion that they have some significant flaws they they just aren't addressing and that the solution is either need new leaders in key positions or some changes in their core philosophies. And by the way, in what business do you reward repeated failure at a high level, especially when that business is an industry leader in expenditures? If you're talking moves, you ought to not cherry pick the bad and ignore the good, particularly when they're part of a single deal. Hanrahan and HOLT for Melancon and Pimentel...considering Melancon was getting smoked here, getting Holt back was shrewd. Losing Reddick and Moss for Bailey...well, I hated that one at the time. But what are the odds that both Hanrahan AND Bailey would both have career-ending injuries? But, getting RODRIGUEZ for Miller? Pretty good Montas, Iglesias, Rondon for Peavy...eh...tough to say. I like Bogaerts over Iglesias, and Montas was stalled out in Greenville. Didn't really like it at the time, still don't, but can't argue with a WS title. Signing UEHARA? Great move. Signing Napoli and Victorino? Worked out in '13, not the past two years. Signed MONCADA. Signed Anderson ESPINOZA. Signed Rafael DEVERS. Let Ellsbury go. Good move. Same with Lester. Both arguably high AAV for too many years. Panda...uggh, although it's too early really. Hanley...I have hope. Betts wasn't brought up too early. Bogaerts probably wasn't either. JBJ was, the real mistake would be not giving him another shot. Castillo? Jury's out, but if he's not up for good next season, it's gonna be tough for him to live up to that deal. THE PUNTO TRADE? Good move. Lester-Cespedes-Porcello-extension? Also remains to be seen. A half-season is grossly insufficient there, but if Porcello pitches like he did last year, instead of this year, to finish out that deal, it'll be a good move. You're completely entitled to dislike the work of the FO and Cherington, but I agree with the assessment that the position he's in is largely a product of Theo's latter reign and some bad drafts in the post-'07 years. Why ignore the moves that worked? I don't think his ability as GM will really be reflected in the standings until 2017, or 2016 if he trades off some talent this winter and rebuilds the pitching (again). FA is notoriously volatile; they've focused on internal talent development, so we'll know in a couple years if that's worked.
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Post by proudtoserve on Jul 25, 2015 7:08:08 GMT -5
This might come off as a little ignorant, but I'm genuinely curious, why do you think guys like Aro and Ramirez are getting chances before Hembree? I know he was hurt and both of those guys have fairly decent upside, but isn't Hembree supposed to be a future set up man? And he's killing AAA? So just wondering if I was missing something and what do you guys think the reason is? Thanks in advance Further to James Dunne very valid comment just earlier on Hembree having been on DL, could it also be "show me" for Noe Ramirez, and Aro, who unless I am mistaken are numbers 36 and 38 on the 40-man? Perhaps the need to show-case now, ahead of 31 July, pray for lights-out and trade interest percolating? If not, the need to drop from 40-man ahead of pending trade/trades? Hogging 40 man spot this close to 31 July has got to be a hot-spot, if not mistaken?
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Post by proudtoserve on Jul 25, 2015 7:12:40 GMT -5
Just thinking thru, this close to 31 July, who hogs the last 2-3 spots (only one available now), in the event a trade materializes and the Sox need to DFA one or more?
EDIT: I meant, if we had to replace 2-3 of the 39 on the roster now, who else would you chose but Noe Ramirez, and Aro, ahead of nice trade/s, just curious......sometimes front office positioning is there for us to see, possibly?
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jul 25, 2015 7:13:55 GMT -5
You're completely entitled to dislike the work of the FO and Cherington, but I agree with the assessment that the position he's in is largely a product of Theo's latter reign and some bad drafts in the post-'07 years. Why ignore the moves that worked? I don't think his ability as GM will really be reflected in the standings until 2017, or 2016 if he trades off some talent this winter and rebuilds the pitching (again). FA is notoriously volatile; they've focused on internal talent development, so we'll know in a couple years if that's worked. Betts and Bogaerts were drafted and signed when Theo was GM. BC shouldn't credit for them. Our recent success in the international market should go to Eddie Romero for guys like; Devers, Margot, Espinoza, etc. Every baseball fan in America knew who Moncada was. And, wanted their team to sign him. John Henry wrote the check and we got him. If you want to give BC credit for that. Fine.
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Post by sarasoxer on Jul 25, 2015 7:14:28 GMT -5
This might come off as a little ignorant, but I'm genuinely curious, why do you think guys like Aro and Ramirez are getting chances before Hembree? I know he was hurt and both of those guys have fairly decent upside, but isn't Hembree supposed to be a future set up man? And he's killing AAA? So just wondering if I was missing something and what do you guys think the reason is? Thanks in advance Further to James Dunne very valid comment just earlier on Hembree having been on DL, could it also be "show me" for Noe Ramirez, and Aro, who unless I am mistaken are numbers 36 and 38 on the 40-man? Perhaps the need to show-case now, ahead of 31 July, pray for lights-out and trade interest percolating? If not, the need to drop from 40-man ahead of pending trade/trades? Hogging 40 man spot this close to 31 July has got to be a hot-spot, if not mistaken? I am afraid that I am negative toward our minor league relief pitchers. Barnes has the best arm but a straight FB IMO and not good enough secondaries, Hembree doesn't throw as he once did before injury, Noe does not excite...no outstanding pitch, Aro is 92-93 with pretty good command in AAA but even there he has a 3 plus ERA. So, I don't see any of those guys holding down a bullpen spot on a strong pen. Nope, we will go outside the organization if we are to improve IMO.
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Post by iakovos11 on Jul 25, 2015 8:00:33 GMT -5
You're completely entitled to dislike the work of the FO and Cherington, but I agree with the assessment that the position he's in is largely a product of Theo's latter reign and some bad drafts in the post-'07 years. Why ignore the moves that worked? I don't think his ability as GM will really be reflected in the standings until 2017, or 2016 if he trades off some talent this winter and rebuilds the pitching (again). FA is notoriously volatile; they've focused on internal talent development, so we'll know in a couple years if that's worked. Betts and Bogaerts were drafted and signed when Theo was GM. BC shouldn't credit for them. Our recent success in the international market should go to Eddie Romero for guys like; Devers, Margot, Espinoza, etc. Every baseball fan in America knew who Moncada was. And, wanted their team to sign him. John Henry wrote the check and we got him. If you want to give BC credit for that. Fine. Yet you're doing backflips to avoid giving him any credit. If you want to blame Ben for everything because he's overseeing everything, then he gets credit for having the right people in place in Latin America and giving them the tools and support to do their job well. He also gets credit for Moncada. Yes, everyone knew who he was, but oversaw the process and the Sox got him signed. Ownerships always writes the checks.
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Post by dcsoxfan on Jul 25, 2015 8:19:06 GMT -5
You're completely entitled to dislike the work of the FO and Cherington, but I agree with the assessment that the position he's in is largely a product of Theo's latter reign and some bad drafts in the post-'07 years. Why ignore the moves that worked? I don't think his ability as GM will really be reflected in the standings until 2017, or 2016 if he trades off some talent this winter and rebuilds the pitching (again). FA is notoriously volatile; they've focused on internal talent development, so we'll know in a couple years if that's worked. Betts and Bogaerts were drafted and signed when Theo was GM. BC shouldn't credit for them. Our recent success in the international market should go to Eddie Romero for guys like; Devers, Margot, Espinoza, etc. Every baseball fan in America knew who Moncada was. And, wanted their team to sign him. John Henry wrote the check and we got him. If you want to give BC credit for that. Fine. Organizations are more than one person. I suspect you're underestimating Jed Hoyer's contribution to player development during the Epstein years and Cherington's contribution to rebuilding it after Hoyer left. I have some concerns about Cherington's player evaluation as evidenced in trades and FA signings, but he clearly has outstanding organizational skills I would not like to see the Red Sox lose. I think the conversation should be about how they augment not replace Ben Cherington.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 25, 2015 8:54:09 GMT -5
Imagine if we had the Padres' farm system now. That's when it's time to fire a GM. But if they did fire Cherington, the next GM would have to credit him for leaving (close to if not) the best under-25 talent in the entire majors. Patience.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jul 25, 2015 9:03:48 GMT -5
Imagine if we had the Padres' farm system now. That's when it's time to fire a GM. But if they did fire Cherington, the next GM would have to credit him for leaving (close to if not) the best under-25 talent in the entire majors. Patience. I'm the one willing to write the next two years off and shoot for 2018. I don't expect any of our veteran stiffs to flourish going forward.
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Post by Guidas on Jul 25, 2015 10:17:29 GMT -5
Imagine if we had the Padres' farm system now. That's when it's time to fire a GM. But if they did fire Cherington, the next GM would have to credit him for leaving (close to if not) the best under-25 talent in the entire majors. Patience. We aren't dealing with the Padres' revenue stream or salary levels though. Also, Jed Hoyer was nice enough to gut their farm as soon as he got to Chicago.
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Post by theburn on Jul 25, 2015 11:03:34 GMT -5
Imagine if we had the Padres' farm system now. That's when it's time to fire a GM. But if they did fire Cherington, the next GM would have to credit him for leaving (close to if not) the best under-25 talent in the entire majors. Patience. I'm the one willing to write the next two years off and shoot for 2018. I don't expect any of our veteran stiffs to flourish going forward. I'm willing to do the same. But I think my biggest problem with this ownership group has been their unwillingness to "rebuild" at all. They've been content to have "bridge" years, but an honest rebuild that leads a franchise to enduring success needs at least two seasons. I fully understand that a big market team's demands are different, but the irony here is that ownership's avoidance of an honest 2+ year rebuild (signing Pablo and Hanley months after trading away the entire starting rotation) rushes and compromises their potential for enduring success in the future. It frustrates me to no end.
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Post by grandsalami on Jul 25, 2015 11:25:07 GMT -5
I'm the one willing to write the next two years off and shoot for 2018. I don't expect any of our veteran stiffs to flourish going forward. I'm willing to do the same. But I think my biggest problem with this ownership group has been their unwillingness to "rebuild" at all. They've been content to have "bridge" years, but an honest rebuild that leads a franchise to enduring success needs at least two seasons. I fully understand that a big market team's demands are different, but the irony here is that ownership's avoidance of an honest 2+ year rebuild (signing Pablo and Hanley months after trading away the entire starting rotation) rushes and compromises their potential for enduring success in the future. It frustrates me to no end. do you remember what happened in the media the last time ownership and the FO said they were having a bridge year?
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Post by theburn on Jul 25, 2015 11:45:33 GMT -5
I'm willing to do the same. But I think my biggest problem with this ownership group has been their unwillingness to "rebuild" at all. They've been content to have "bridge" years, but an honest rebuild that leads a franchise to enduring success needs at least two seasons. I fully understand that a big market team's demands are different, but the irony here is that ownership's avoidance of an honest 2+ year rebuild (signing Pablo and Hanley months after trading away the entire starting rotation) rushes and compromises their potential for enduring success in the future. It frustrates me to no end. do you remember what happened in the media the last time ownership and the FO said they were having a bridge year? I remember that crusade as well as I remember them ripping the signings of Sandoval and Ramirez this year.
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Post by jmei on Jul 25, 2015 11:54:43 GMT -5
I'm willing to do the same. But I think my biggest problem with this ownership group has been their unwillingness to "rebuild" at all. They've been content to have "bridge" years, but an honest rebuild that leads a franchise to enduring success needs at least two seasons. I fully understand that a big market team's demands are different, but the irony here is that ownership's avoidance of an honest 2+ year rebuild (signing Pablo and Hanley months after trading away the entire starting rotation) rushes and compromises their potential for enduring success in the future. It frustrates me to no end. do you remember what happened in the media the last time ownership and the FO said they were having a bridge year? An ownership and front office committed to long-term success (on-field and financial) do not pay undue attention to media or public reaction. Long-term success is more important than short-term ratings.
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Post by telson13 on Jul 25, 2015 12:08:33 GMT -5
You're completely entitled to dislike the work of the FO and Cherington, but I agree with the assessment that the position he's in is largely a product of Theo's latter reign and some bad drafts in the post-'07 years. Why ignore the moves that worked? I don't think his ability as GM will really be reflected in the standings until 2017, or 2016 if he trades off some talent this winter and rebuilds the pitching (again). FA is notoriously volatile; they've focused on internal talent development, so we'll know in a couple years if that's worked. Betts and Bogaerts were drafted and signed when Theo was GM. BC shouldn't credit for them. Our recent success in the international market should go to Eddie Romero for guys like; Devers, Margot, Espinoza, etc. Every baseball fan in America knew who Moncada was. And, wanted their team to sign him. John Henry wrote the check and we got him. If you want to give BC credit for that. Fine. Where, exactly, in my original post did I give Cherington credit for signing Betts and Bogaerts? For one, Bogaerts wasn't drafted. And Betts was a HS pick in 2011...great pick, but from '08-'10 they had some clunker drafts. Maybe I wasn't clear in specifying the exact years, and "post-'07" wasn't the best way to put it. 2011 was a very good draft...but it's the previous three years that left a hole in the talent influx that they're feeling now. For John Henry to spend on Moncada, someone had to convince him, and that's the GM's job. Whether or not fans knew he was good it totally irrelevant. The knew who he was because teams like the Sox had been scouting him, for several years. That's at the behest of the GM. Final personnel decisions are made by the GM. They're the guys who put guys like Eddie Romero in the position he's in, and know when to trust and when to question them, and when to promote or move them. The GM makes hiring decisions. If you can show me a corporate CEO or VP who does all of the work for every single job in their department without any involvement in the delegation and division of said tasks, I'll be shocked. That's what a GENERAL MANAGER does...manage the team's baseball operations. So, if you can't see the shades of grey I'm talking about, and think I'm looking at it as "credit," or "no credit," that's fine.
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Post by jdb on Jul 25, 2015 12:11:24 GMT -5
So of the 162 players who qualify for fangraphs WAR Ben locked up the 161st and 162nd rated players this offseason. He needs to get out from under Sandavals contract. Sign or trade for a RH 3B and let him split time with Holt. Chris Johnson could be had and guys like Freese and Uribe are FAs. Everyone but Cherington saw 4 straight years of declining numbers but as soon as he got hot in October we heard rumblings we were going after him. 2/3s of the way through the season he's sitting at career lows in OBP and slugging and that's getting away from a pitchers park in SF.
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Post by arzjake on Jul 25, 2015 12:24:24 GMT -5
I said it once I'll say it again. Cherington is no dummy. I believe it all falls on Ownership far as the "high profile" Free Agent signs and certain trades like the Lester deal. Cherington is a DDuquette disciple. Lets not forget DD started in Player development with the Brewers and Expos and arguably built one of the best Minor League developmental systems MLB has ever seen in the Expos. From Grissom Guerrero White Floyd Vidro to Vazquez and many others not to mention the expos trade for Pedro and Wetteland those years. The state of the Minor League system shows promise due to Cherington's experience in Minor League Player development under DD. Grant it not all prospects or where prospects are picked work out. The chips are there to make trades or continued development. The Latin American scouting the Baseball Camp in the Dominican all have Cherington's stamp on it.
Ownership? Why do you think Epstein is gone.
I believe the Sox need a new Manager with a track record of success not only on the field but with veteran and young players. A motivator. Gardenhire for 16
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Post by sarasoxer on Jul 25, 2015 16:05:24 GMT -5
I'm willing to do the same. But I think my biggest problem with this ownership group has been their unwillingness to "rebuild" at all. They've been content to have "bridge" years, but an honest rebuild that leads a franchise to enduring success needs at least two seasons. I fully understand that a big market team's demands are different, but the irony here is that ownership's avoidance of an honest 2+ year rebuild (signing Pablo and Hanley months after trading away the entire starting rotation) rushes and compromises their potential for enduring success in the future. It frustrates me to no end. do you remember what happened in the media the last time ownership and the FO said they were having a bridge year? I don't give a damn about media reaction. The media has its own agenda which is not always in concert. I am willing to build and wait for the future. Next year Mookie will be better, Bogaerts will start hitting for power, Swihart will have experience under his belt, JBJ may arrive and thrive etc., etc. We effed up....trying to patch and paste. OK...Let's move forward. Sell what we have for as much value as we can get and bide our time. It will come again.
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danr
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Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Jul 25, 2015 18:15:40 GMT -5
Hamels just no-hit the Cubs.
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redsox04071318champs
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Always hoping to make my handle even longer...
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 25, 2015 18:58:48 GMT -5
Hamels just no-hit the Cubs. Good, let somebody else overpay for him.
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Post by larrycook on Jul 25, 2015 21:10:25 GMT -5
Hamels just no-hit the Cubs. Good, let somebody else overpay for him. Could that someone else is the Cubs? I am hopeful they put together a better prospect package than bc, because I fear bc and ownership are operating in titanic mode ....... Post iceberg!
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Jul 25, 2015 21:22:18 GMT -5
Yawn. No-hitters aren't even impressive these days. There's practically one a week.
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