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Post by ethanbein on Jun 9, 2015 9:22:48 GMT -5
Thought this thread could be used to talk about rankings throughout the year.
Continuing a couple threads from the main forum, if you were doing the rankings today, would you have Espinoza or Ball higher? For me it's not particularly close, it's Espinoza, but I suspect I might be in the minority on this one.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Jun 9, 2015 9:53:38 GMT -5
At this point last year Devers was ranked #12, and I'd argue that there is just as much to be excited about in Espinoza. However I'm wondering if this is also a function of Devers having time in ST and instructs prior to playing in the DSL?  where Espinoza has not had that type of look yet. |
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 9, 2015 9:54:34 GMT -5
At this point last year Devers was ranked #12, and I'd argue that there is just as much to be excited about in Espinoza. However I'm wondering if this is also a function of Devers having time in ST and instructs prior to playing in the DSL? where Espinoza has not had that type of look yet. We've never seen Espinoza pitch, and he hadn't pitched yet as of the last time we updated the rankings. Compare with Devers, who we'd seen at Instructs and in Spring Training. I'd expect him to make a big jump on July 1. Tough to rank what you haven't seen. Note that his scouting report has changed significantly in the past week. |
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Post by Mike Andrews on Jun 9, 2015 11:56:57 GMT -5
This ^
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Post by telson13 on Jun 9, 2015 19:46:43 GMT -5
Thought this thread could be used to talk about rankings throughout the year. Continuing a couple threads from the main forum, if you were doing the rankings today, would you have Espinoza or Ball higher? For me it's not particularly close, it's Espinoza, but I suspect I might be in the minority on this one. I'd give Espinoza the edge, simply based on his incredible stuff at such a young age. If he were in the draft next year, sitting 95-97 and touching 99 (at 17, with two legitimate secondaries, command, and pitchability), he'd be in Dylan Bundy territory as a potential 1-1 or 1-2. I do think Ball is under-appreciated by folks on this site, though. He's pitched reasonably well this year and is still young for his level...in addition to still having significant projectability, a low-low mileage arm, athleticism, and a good attitude. |
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Post by wskeleton76 on Jun 9, 2015 20:20:30 GMT -5
No doubt. Espinoza should be in the top 10.
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 9, 2015 20:33:49 GMT -5
No doubt. Espinoza should be in the top 10. Top 10 is tough in this system, even if Swihart will graduate. I certainly wouldn't have him above anyone in the current top 10, and I will have him behind Benintendi, also. |
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Post by jmei on Jun 9, 2015 21:00:12 GMT -5
I understand that a couple sources have talked up Espinoza now, but he's made all of two professional starts and he's one of the youngest players in the system. There is plenty of time for him to rocket up the rankings once there has been more reliable intel on him.
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 9, 2015 21:22:27 GMT -5
I understand that a couple sources have talked up Espinoza now, but he's made all of two professional starts and he's one of the youngest players in the system. There is plenty of time for him to rocket up the rankings once there has been more reliable intel on him. That's fair, though McDaniel and Badler have been talking him up quite a bit as well and that carries some weight. It's not like people are just going nuts over his stat line. With the stuff we've heard in the last two weeks, I'd figure he'd move up the rankings even if the season hadn't started yet. |
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Post by chavopepe2 on Jun 10, 2015 7:28:53 GMT -5
I personally would but him in the 8-12 range. With the reports we have on him, he is a better prospect than Stank and everyone below him.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 10, 2015 10:54:45 GMT -5
He should probably slide down one spot for Benintendi. Getting ahead of myself.  |
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Post by wskeleton76 on Jun 10, 2015 21:11:16 GMT -5
No doubt. Espinoza should be in the top 10. Top 10 is tough in this system, even if Swihart will graduate. I certainly wouldn't have him above anyone in the current top 10, and I will have him behind Benintendi, also. Well do you believe that Chavis is better than Espinoza? |
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 10, 2015 22:09:35 GMT -5
Yes. Better chance that Chavis makes it, and his upside is probably the same.
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Post by wskeleton76 on Jun 12, 2015 22:45:51 GMT -5
Yes. Better chance that Chavis makes it, and his upside is probably the same. I don't get it. Chavis isn't a toolsy guy. He was drafted high by his bat. Now he struggles at the plate. I am sure his value is pretty low. He looks 3~4 round talent right now. Meanwhile Espinoza's upside is huge. He could be top 5 pick. If you were a GM would you pick Chavis over Espinoza? really? |
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Post by telson13 on Jun 13, 2015 20:37:50 GMT -5
Three starts, 11 innings, 14 Ks. Just 6 hits, three walks, and two runs (one earned). Described by respected evaluators as having what is essentially a 70+ FB, and two secondaries with present 50 grades, maybe better, plus outstanding command for his age, and an easy, simple, repeatable delivery. At 17, he's on the verge of a true 80 FB and is easily projectable to have two 55-60 or better secondaries with 60 or better command. Chavis might have 60 power. He has no other tools that project better than solid-average. I like Chavis, and he's in low A at 19, but he's struggled with contact. He absolutely doesn't have a reasonable ceiling equivalent to Espinoza, who legitimately looks like a true potential ace. His only drawback is his lack of experience. I would absolutely put him above Chavis though. Depending on graduates, I can easily see him in the top 10 and as high as 7 or 8.
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Post by telson13 on Jun 13, 2015 20:40:09 GMT -5
The real question for me right now is, would I put Espinoza above Javy Guerra?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 14, 2015 16:22:09 GMT -5
The thing is, I'd want to wait to see what Espinoza does in the U.S. before shooting him into the stratosphere. I could not care less about DSL stats, and I'd want to have the reports confirmed domestically.
But yeah, like I said, he'll make a big jump on 7/1.
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Post by jmei on Jun 14, 2015 16:40:38 GMT -5
Described by respected evaluators as having what is essentially a 70+ FB, and two secondaries with present 50 grades, maybe better, plus outstanding command for his age, and an easy, simple, repeatable delivery. Eh, as far as I know, none of those evaluators have actually seen him and written up formal scouting reports and are instead relying on industry contacts. Those reports may well be inflated by his agent and/or the Red Sox front office. As has been mentioned, I'd be hesitant to move him up too much until I (or someone I trust) had independently evaluated him. I'm pretty skeptical about the idea that he's sitting 95 mph as a 17-year-old. |
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Post by rivenp on Jun 15, 2015 3:30:31 GMT -5
considering his physical profile and purported stuff...isn't espinoza basically a slightly higher-ceiling carson fulmer with greater risk considering his age and background???
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 15, 2015 6:22:43 GMT -5
considering his physical profile and purported stuff...isn't espinoza basically a slightly higher-ceiling carson fulmer with greater risk considering his age and background??? I don't think so. His delivery is effortless and he has 3 plus pitches that he can control. And he's sitting 95+ as a 17 year old. Fulmer has two plus pitches and average control. Espinoza's ceiling is higher. |
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 15, 2015 8:41:08 GMT -5
Espinoza definitely does not have three plus pitches that he can control, no matter what his agent reports. The only pitcher in the Red Sox organization with three plus pitches that he can control is Buchholz, arguably.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 15, 2015 9:55:20 GMT -5
Projections, not current.
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Post by telson13 on Jun 15, 2015 17:36:57 GMT -5
Described by respected evaluators as having what is essentially a 70+ FB, and two secondaries with present 50 grades, maybe better, plus outstanding command for his age, and an easy, simple, repeatable delivery. Eh, as far as I know, none of those evaluators have actually seen him and written up formal scouting reports and are instead relying on industry contacts. Those reports may well be inflated by his agent and/or the Red Sox front office. As has been mentioned, I'd be hesitant to move him up too much until I (or someone I trust) had independently evaluated him. I'm pretty skeptical about the idea that he's sitting 95 mph as a 17-year-old. I'd thought those were (semi-?) direct reports following his performance in the DSL. I agree, agent reports (or any reports from someone with a conflict of interest such as members of the front office) should be taken with a giant grain of salt. Like, salt-lick size. |
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Post by rivenp on Jun 15, 2015 22:53:37 GMT -5
Projections, not current. so you're basically projecting him to be pedro??? i would think he would've gotten more than 1.5 if that was his projection... |
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Post by moonstone2 on Jun 15, 2015 23:06:43 GMT -5
Projections, not current. so you're basically projecting him to be pedro??? i would think he would've gotten more than 1.5 if that was his projection... Well first off he's a better prosoect today than he was a year ago. No one knew that he could throw 100. Plus there is a ton of risk in that projection. Anyone who is 17 and throws that hard has a chance to be special. |
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where Espinoza has not had that type of look yet. 
