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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 16:45:38 GMT -5
Who is to blame? Well Papelbon sucks and Harper is the MVP so Papelbon.
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Post by jmei on Sept 28, 2015 16:46:18 GMT -5
How does his arrogance affect his team negatively? Well its beyond arrogance first off.....it could be all sorts of things way above and beyond what I posted above. I thought I established that, but perhaps you're not buying it. How could those things affect a team negatively? C'mon, do you want me to make a list? If you don't think that team chemistry and being a good teammate matters at all in baseball, then we might have to agree to disagree. But yeah to summarize one of your earlier points, my argument is that Harper's pattern of behavior deserves addressing. That it lead to physical confrontation, is somewhat unfortunate, but not all that unexpected given his reaction to Papelbon's calling out. I don't think the things Harper is accused of doing have materially impacted team chemistry. As mentioned in the Kilgore article linked upthread, Harper did not actually fail to run out the popup, as he was on first base by the time it was caught, and Harper hasn't been accused of not running out ground balls for a couple years now. You'll have to explain to me how pimping home runs or dragging his foot over the Braves logo hurts the Nationals' play on the field, because that's not intuitively obvious to me.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 28, 2015 16:46:20 GMT -5
Wasn't the narrative with Harper before that he was trying TOO HARD, and that he had to learn like sprinting on routine pop outs was going to do nothing but get him hurt? The narrative for Harper is the same as it is for A-Rod and Bonds: Even though he's the best player in his league, he hurts his teams, and we'll figure out a way that's possible later.
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Post by jmei on Sept 28, 2015 16:48:08 GMT -5
Absolutely I am. Being a dick does not justify physical assault. An eye for an eye and all that. C'mon man, this is really fundamental stuff. Can you at least concede that some people deserve it less than others? Go start up an advocacy group for drunk people who get beat up for getting too drunk and mouthing off to everyone in bars. Sometimes, it's pretty easy to avoid physical assault, such as not screaming in Papelbon's face or just by making an effort to getting along with people in general more often. Nobody deserves being physically assaulted. This is not a spectrum but a hard line in the sand.
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Post by ramireja on Sept 28, 2015 16:49:25 GMT -5
10+ WAR sure did them a lot of good getting to the playoffs... Let me guess. You believe that Cespeses should win the MVP. You wouldn't recognize a once in a generation player if he hit you in the face. No, Harper obviously deserves the MVP....thats not the point. My comment was made in jest, I don't think the effects of being a bad teammate negate the value of 10+ WAR. Look, I'm not stupid, Harper is clearly one of the games best players. That doesn't mean he can't improve at being a better teammate and person. Probably easier said than done, but if I'm on that team, and I have a problem with the way he handles himself, I'm going to tell him. If he refuses to listen, make him listen.
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Post by jmei on Sept 28, 2015 16:49:30 GMT -5
I agree. But you don't know if he's a bad team mate and I don't know if he's a good one, but you just assume he isn't? Not guilty until proven otherwise...Please don't point to the players who are the example of thoughtful, educated, morally good people. I'm assuming that Nitkowski's quotes from players aren't made up. I've yet to see quotes from players defending Harper. Quotes from players are literally our ONLY insight to what kind of person Harper is. I mean can you imagine anyone saying anything close to what they're saying about Harper in regards to Xander or Mookie? No, we cannot. Because their makeup is off the charts, unlike Harper's. I am willing to bet that none of Nitkowski's quotes come from current Nationals players.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 16:50:51 GMT -5
Wasn't the narrative with Harper before that he was trying TOO HARD, and that he had to learn like sprinting on routine pop outs was going to do nothing but get him hurt? The narrative for Harper is the same as it is for A-Rod and Bonds: Even though he's the best player in his league, he hurts his teams, and we'll figure out a way that's possible later. The narrative for people who think that way is that it doesn't matter how much of a dick a player is, you have to like him and declare him god if he's good enough at baseball. His talent has absolutely nothing to do with whether he's a good teammate or well liked or just a primadonna horse's *** who cares about nothing other than himself. No one questions his talent.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 16:52:05 GMT -5
Disrespecting the game is a bad enough offense to be called out....if your reaction to the calling out is to lash back out, then you're opening yourself up to all sorts of trouble. Do you think Ortiz is an ***hole who disrepects the game? Price and Archer sure think he is. Could you answer this question?
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 16:53:36 GMT -5
Can you at least concede that some people deserve it less than others? Go start up an advocacy group for drunk people who get beat up for getting too drunk and mouthing off to everyone in bars. Sometimes, it's pretty easy to avoid physical assault, such as not screaming in Papelbon's face or just by making an effort to getting along with people in general more often. Nobody deserves being physically assaulted. This is not a spectrum but a hard line in the sand. Does it shock and sadden you equally when people who are acting like a dick are assaulted or some old grandmother getting knocked down and her purse stolen? This sounds like the argument I had with my mom when I was 12 when she'd tell me "If he hits you, just go tell the teacher and don't hit back."
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 16:54:44 GMT -5
I'm assuming that Nitkowski's quotes from players aren't made up. I've yet to see quotes from players defending Harper. Quotes from players are literally our ONLY insight to what kind of person Harper is. I mean can you imagine anyone saying anything close to what they're saying about Harper in regards to Xander or Mookie? No, we cannot. Because their makeup is off the charts, unlike Harper's. I am willing to bet that none of Nitkowski's quotes come from current Nationals players. Great, until you come up with something more concrete than that...
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Post by ramireja on Sept 28, 2015 16:55:19 GMT -5
Well its beyond arrogance first off.....it could be all sorts of things way above and beyond what I posted above. I thought I established that, but perhaps you're not buying it. How could those things affect a team negatively? C'mon, do you want me to make a list? If you don't think that team chemistry and being a good teammate matters at all in baseball, then we might have to agree to disagree. But yeah to summarize one of your earlier points, my argument is that Harper's pattern of behavior deserves addressing. That it lead to physical confrontation, is somewhat unfortunate, but not all that unexpected given his reaction to Papelbon's calling out. I don't think the things Harper is accused of doing have materially impacted team chemistry. As mentioned in the Kilgore article linked upthread, Harper did not actually fail to run out the popup, as he was on first base by the time it was caught, and Harper hasn't been accused of not running out ground balls for a couple years now. You'll have to explain to me how pimping home runs or dragging his foot over the Braves logo hurts the Nationals' play on the field, because that's not intuitively obvious to me. I'll admit that I'm making assumptions about his behavior that I can't prove. I don't think you can generate this much hate from your teammates and peers in the league simply from being good. Its not like he's even won anything (like Brady has), and he still is unanimously hated. Clearly I don't know everything that happens behind closed doors, and I gather that you're not comfortable with making assumptions as to the kind of teammate he is, but I am. I've seen enough from the way he carries himself, from his quotables around the league, and from the league's response to his actions ( not just in this isolated case either)
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 28, 2015 16:57:09 GMT -5
So a bunch of people are getting blocked because of this thread.
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Post by ramireja on Sept 28, 2015 16:59:31 GMT -5
Do you think Ortiz is an ***hole who disrepects the game? Price and Archer sure think he is. Could you answer this question? Sure. Actually, sometimes I do think Ortiz can be a little too pompous, but as I mentioned earlier...I view everyone's attitude on a spectrum, and I wouldn't equate Ortiz' attitude with Harpers. wcsoxfan made a good point earlier differentiating jerks from bad teammates. I've always imagined Ortiz to be a little bit of a cocky player but a great teammate. I think Harper is both a d-bag and a bad teammate.
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Post by jmei on Sept 28, 2015 17:03:37 GMT -5
I am willing to bet that none of Nitkowski's quotes come from current Nationals players. Great, until you come up with something more concrete than that... Well, Papelbon is the one who was suspended four games by the team and stands a good chance of being traded this offseason, while Matt Williams is likely to be fired this offseason. Mike Rizzo and the Nationals ownership are presumably on my side on this one.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 17:06:28 GMT -5
Could you answer this question? Sure. Actually, sometimes I do think Ortiz can be a little too pompous, but as I mentioned earlier...I view everyone's attitude on a spectrum, and I wouldn't equate Ortiz' attitude with Harpers. wcsoxfan made a good point earlier differentiating jerks from bad teammates. I've always imagined Ortiz to be a little bit of a cocky player but a great teammate. I think Harper is both a d-bag and a bad teammate. But Ortiz wears his jersey with some buttons open, wears a golden chain larger than life, pimps his home runs, doesn't run out ground balls, walks into his manager's presser to complain about a RBI taken way. Fits the narrative right?
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Post by jmei on Sept 28, 2015 17:06:01 GMT -5
Let me guess. You believe that Cespeses should win the MVP. You wouldn't recognize a once in a generation player if he hit you in the face. No, Harper obviously deserves the MVP....thats not the point. My comment was made in jest, I don't think the effects of being a bad teammate negate the value of 10+ WAR. Look, I'm not stupid, Harper is clearly one of the games best players. That doesn't mean he can't improve at being a better teammate and person. Probably easier said than done, but if I'm on that team, and I have a problem with the way he handles himself, I'm going to tell him. If he refuses to listen, make him listen. The implication of this latter statement is what I disagree with. Even if you think that "disrespecting the game" is a negative attribute, I hope you'll concede that it is not deserving of physical violence. If the story was that Papelbon told Harper that he needs to respect the game, I'd roll my eyes (because I think the unwritten rules are dumb-- who cares if a guy pimps a home run? But that's another discussion entirely) but would otherwise be fine with it. It's the idea that it's a grave enough offense to deserve being beat up or thrown at or spiked on a slide that's the issue for me.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 17:11:05 GMT -5
Great, until you come up with something more concrete than that... Well, Papelbon is the one who was suspended four games by the team and stands a good chance of being traded this offseason, while Matt Williams is likely to be fired this offseason. Mike Rizzo and the Nationals ownership are presumably on my side on this one. The only thing that proves is that Harper is the 10 WAR guy.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 28, 2015 17:12:09 GMT -5
Could you answer this question? Sure. Actually, sometimes I do think Ortiz can be a little too pompous, but as I mentioned earlier...I view everyone's attitude on a spectrum, and I wouldn't equate Ortiz' attitude with Harpers. wcsoxfan made a good point earlier differentiating jerks from bad teammates. I've always imagined Ortiz to be a little bit of a cocky player but a great teammate. I think Harper is both a d-bag and a bad teammate. Yup.
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Post by ramireja on Sept 28, 2015 17:13:27 GMT -5
Sure. Actually, sometimes I do think Ortiz can be a little too pompous, but as I mentioned earlier...I view everyone's attitude on a spectrum, and I wouldn't equate Ortiz' attitude with Harpers. wcsoxfan made a good point earlier differentiating jerks from bad teammates. I've always imagined Ortiz to be a little bit of a cocky player but a great teammate. I think Harper is both a d-bag and a bad teammate. But Ortiz wears his jersey with some buttons open, wears a golden chain larger than life, pimps his home runs, doesn't run out ground balls, walks into his manager's presser to complain about a RBI taken way. Fits the narrative right? Well it fits the narrative of being pompous, which I admitted to in my post. It doesn't fit the "poor teammate" label that I think Bryce is also guilty of. Once again, I get that I'm making assumptions about him being a poor teammate, but I'm comfortable doing so given the consensus feelings towards Bryce from the rest of the league.
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Post by ramireja on Sept 28, 2015 17:15:19 GMT -5
No, Harper obviously deserves the MVP....thats not the point. My comment was made in jest, I don't think the effects of being a bad teammate negate the value of 10+ WAR. Look, I'm not stupid, Harper is clearly one of the games best players. That doesn't mean he can't improve at being a better teammate and person. Probably easier said than done, but if I'm on that team, and I have a problem with the way he handles himself, I'm going to tell him. If he refuses to listen, make him listen. The implication of this latter statement is what I disagree with. Even if you think that "disrespecting the game" is a negative attribute, I hope you'll concede that it is not deserving of physical violence. If the story was that Papelbon told Harper that he needs to respect the game, I'd roll my eyes (because I think the unwritten rules are dumb-- who cares if a guy pimps a home run? But that's another discussion entirely) but would otherwise be fine with it. It's the idea that it's a grave enough offense to deserve being beat up or thrown at or spiked on a slide that's the issue for me. Yup, and I think we can actually agree on that. I'm not advocating the physical violence. I've tried to be clear that I'm in support of the initial confrontation to Harper.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 17:15:57 GMT -5
But Ortiz wears his jersey with some buttons open, wears a golden chain larger than life, pimps his home runs, doesn't run out ground balls, walks into his manager's presser to complain about a RBI taken way. Fits the narrative right? Well it fits the narrative of being pompous, which I admitted to in my post. It doesn't fit the "poor teammate" label that I think Bryce is also guilty of. Once again, I get that I'm making assumptions about him being a poor teammate, but I'm comfortable doing so given the consensus feelings towards Bryce from the rest of the league. You don't think Ortiz throwing his manager under the bus is any worse than what Harper did?
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Post by ramireja on Sept 28, 2015 17:16:44 GMT -5
Sure. Actually, sometimes I do think Ortiz can be a little too pompous, but as I mentioned earlier...I view everyone's attitude on a spectrum, and I wouldn't equate Ortiz' attitude with Harpers. wcsoxfan made a good point earlier differentiating jerks from bad teammates. I've always imagined Ortiz to be a little bit of a cocky player but a great teammate. I think Harper is both a d-bag and a bad teammate. Yup. Not sure I follow the significance of your bolding. I get that a lot of my argument rests on assumptions that I'm making. I'm fine with that, I trust my judgement.
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Post by ramireja on Sept 28, 2015 17:20:31 GMT -5
Well it fits the narrative of being pompous, which I admitted to in my post. It doesn't fit the "poor teammate" label that I think Bryce is also guilty of. Once again, I get that I'm making assumptions about him being a poor teammate, but I'm comfortable doing so given the consensus feelings towards Bryce from the rest of the league. You don't think Ortiz throwing his manager under the bus is any worse than what Harper did? I mean you're building a bit of a straw man here. You're the only one who wants to compare this situation to Ortiz. I haven't defended an action of Ortiz, all I've said is that I think he is probably a good teammate. He's certainly not perfect. If he consistently acted in a way that was detrimental to the team, I'd expect him to get called out on it, I don't care how good he is. Take Manny for example. I don't think Schilling was out of line in any of his actions towards Manny despite everything Manny brought to the team from a talent standpoint.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 28, 2015 17:21:52 GMT -5
Sure. Actually, sometimes I do think Ortiz can be a little too pompous, but as I mentioned earlier...I view everyone's attitude on a spectrum, and I wouldn't equate Ortiz' attitude with Harpers. wcsoxfan made a good point earlier differentiating jerks from bad teammates. I've always imagined Ortiz to be a little bit of a cocky player but a great teammate. I think Harper is both a d-bag and a bad teammate. Yup. This is sweet. The guy you disagree with is imagining things, unlike you. Good argument. If your argument is that you don't care if someone is a jerk or bad teammate, there is absolutely nothing for you to talk about in this thread because that is the only thing being discussed. There is no debate of his talent. I get that you'd want Osama Bin Laden on the Red Sox if he were a good player. I'd even take Harper, no matter how much of a sh*thead he is. But I wouldn't care if he got choked by his teammate either. We don't seem to have that problem here though because the players currently on the Red Sox don't act like him.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 28, 2015 17:26:17 GMT -5
Player is arrogant -> player is a dick and a bad teammate who should be called out and thrown at because he's bad for baseball and his team. OK.
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