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gerry
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Post by gerry on Sept 29, 2015 1:21:34 GMT -5
Excellent conclusion
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 29, 2015 6:24:57 GMT -5
Is it just me or does this entire conversation remind you of blaming a woman when her husband beats her up? I don't really care if he was a bad teammate. (aka, she was a bad wife) I don't care that he said things he shouldn't have. I don't care that he doesn't run out fly balls. I don't care if he walks the bases after a home run. None of that justifies what Papelbon did. And if you're talking about what a dick Harper is then you are taking the focus off the thing that matters - Papelbon assaulted his teammate. Thats it. Stop trying to make this about Harper and who he is, because it doesn't matter. Nitkowski should be ashamed for taking the attention off what matters and using being physically assaulted as an excuse to highlight Harper's shortcomings as a teammate. That is absurd. Harper is a big boy and can defend himself, unlike a woman. I mean is this a world in which you will always feel sorry for Harper in an equal way to a small woman who did nothing and said nothing? Could he mock a dead child and wear a Hitler mustache while screaming in a jewish person's face and then you'd scream "victim blaming!" if someone says they aren't surprised that someone took a swing at him? An equally huge muscular large man screaming at Papelbon to fight him is not the same thing as wife beating. Yelling "victim blaming!" does not make all victims equal, even in this world where logic has disappeared.
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Post by humanbeingbean on Sept 29, 2015 8:23:48 GMT -5
I was expecting this thread to entirely condemn Papelbon, and talk about these "unwritten rules" in baseball, and Harper's season in general, and was absolutely not expecting people to defend Papelbon. Like what? Is it not clear that chokeslamming the league MVP is a bad idea? That's assault, plain and simple, so why would someone defend Papelbon? I don't understand. If you care so much about the game being played with integrity and respect, how about a nice man to man talk; not, um, grabbing Bryce by the throat and pushing him into the wall?
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 29, 2015 8:26:53 GMT -5
I was expecting this thread to entirely condemn Papelbon, and talk about these "unwritten rules" in baseball, and Harper's season in general, and was absolutely not expecting people to defend Papelbon. Like what? Is it not clear that chokeslamming the league MVP is a bad idea? That's assault, plain and simple, so why would someone defend Papelbon? I don't understand. If you care so much about the game being played with integrity and respect, how about a nice man to man talk; not, um, grabbing Bryce by the throat and pushing him into the wall? I'm sure if Harper did the same thing a few days earlier instead of calling Papelbon out to the media, there would have been no incident.
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Post by Smittyw on Sept 29, 2015 8:57:38 GMT -5
In my mind Papelbon is doubly the aggressor, first for initiating a confrontation on the dugout steps over Harper not running out a fly ball (he actually did), and then for putting his hands on a teammate. I'm surprised how many people are defending him, to be honest.
Interesting that Nitkowski's column started with a plea for "objectivity" (supposedly because there might be a bias against Papelbon due to his personality and reputation), but the anti-Harper arguments all seem to come back to the fact that many people just think he's a d-bag and had this coming, even if he didn't do anything wrong in this particular instance.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Sept 29, 2015 8:57:28 GMT -5
Is it just me or does this entire conversation remind you of blaming a woman when her husband beats her up? I don't really care if he was a bad teammate. (aka, she was a bad wife) I don't care that he said things he shouldn't have. I don't care that he doesn't run out fly balls. I don't care if he walks the bases after a home run. None of that justifies what Papelbon did. And if you're talking about what a dick Harper is then you are taking the focus off the thing that matters - Papelbon assaulted his teammate. Thats it. Stop trying to make this about Harper and who he is, because it doesn't matter. Nitkowski should be ashamed for taking the attention off what matters and using being physically assaulted as an excuse to highlight Harper's shortcomings as a teammate. I understand the concept but think supporters of the concept, miss the point. Is it better to be right and a victim or not a victim? Do two wrongs make a right? I think both these mental midgets f'd up, regardless of who was right or wrong they do not need to air their dirty laundry.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 29, 2015 10:10:40 GMT -5
In my mind Papelbon is doubly the aggressor, first for initiating a confrontation on the dugout steps over Harper not running out a fly ball (he actually did), and then for putting his hands on a teammate. I'm surprised how many people are defending him, to be honest. Interesting that Nitkowski's column started with a plea for "objectivity" (supposedly because there might be a bias against Papelbon due to his personality and reputation), but the anti-Harper arguments all seem to come back to the fact that many people just think he's a d-bag and had this coming, even if he didn't do anything wrong in this particular instance. It's also interesting that the articles that are pro-Harper continue on for about half of the article stating how good of a player he is, as if that has anything to do with being well liked or hated by teammates.
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,989
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Post by jimoh on Sept 29, 2015 10:17:19 GMT -5
Former player Mark Derosa says a closer who's on the field for 63 innings a year is not the person to be criticizing an everyday player for lack of hustle. www.businessinsider.com/mark-derosa-on-jonathan-papelbon-bryce-harper-fight-2015-9"Here's my problem with Jonathan Papelbon. You've played 63 innings this year. You've been in the clubhouse probably — every closer I've ever been with — through the fifth inning getting a rubdown, eatin' a sandwich, doing your Jobe exercises, takin' your time. You've earned that right. His pedigree — he's earned the right to do that. That's the way [John Smoltz] went about it. All the great closers I played with, they're not gonna get down there in the first inning. You're top-stepping a guy who's played in 1,262 innings, who's hitting .336 with 41 homers, is gonna be the National League MVP and you're questioning whether or not he goes to the post every day. That's tired, OK? No reliever should tell a position player anything about hustle. Go stand out there in the rain, sleet, and snow while you guys are giving up gap shots. That bothered me."
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Post by jmei on Sept 29, 2015 11:06:15 GMT -5
In my mind Papelbon is doubly the aggressor, first for initiating a confrontation on the dugout steps over Harper not running out a fly ball (he actually did), and then for putting his hands on a teammate. I'm surprised how many people are defending him, to be honest. Interesting that Nitkowski's column started with a plea for "objectivity" (supposedly because there might be a bias against Papelbon due to his personality and reputation), but the anti-Harper arguments all seem to come back to the fact that many people just think he's a d-bag and had this coming, even if he didn't do anything wrong in this particular instance. It's also interesting that the articles that are pro-Harper continue on for about half of the article stating how good of a player he is, as if that has anything to do with being well liked or hated by teammates. Well, we're trying to figure out who is in the wrong in this situation, and how good of a player Harper is absolutely ties in to answering that question. He's been the best player in baseball this year, which should more than excuse any momentary lack of hustle.
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Post by ramireja on Sept 29, 2015 11:10:48 GMT -5
I was expecting this thread to entirely condemn Papelbon, and talk about these "unwritten rules" in baseball, and Harper's season in general, and was absolutely not expecting people to defend Papelbon. Like what? Is it not clear that chokeslamming the league MVP is a bad idea? That's assault, plain and simple, so why would someone defend Papelbon? I don't understand. If you care so much about the game being played with integrity and respect, how about a nice man to man talk; not, um, grabbing Bryce by the throat and pushing him into the wall? I'm not sure anyone (I shouldn't speak for jimed) is saying Papelbon's "assault" was warranted. I'm pretty sure the posters who you think are supporting Papelbon, are actually just saying that Harper's antics deserve some type of addressing. Now there are all kinds of problems with how Papelbon addressed it, for sure....I don't think any of us are saying otherwise. People are creating all types of straw mans in this thread.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 29, 2015 11:14:40 GMT -5
It's also interesting that the articles that are pro-Harper continue on for about half of the article stating how good of a player he is, as if that has anything to do with being well liked or hated by teammates. Well, we're trying to figure out who is in the wrong in this situation, and how good of a player Harper is absolutely ties in to answering that question. He's been the best player in baseball this year, which should more than excuse any momentary lack of hustle. So being the best player in the league excuses any of his behavior that we know of or don't know of? These things are never about one particular incident. Papelbon was waiting to jump on him for anything because of how Harper called him out to the media a few days earlier. If we can't assume that is true, then I guess I'll just let you invent my reality and give up. But that is what makes sense to me.
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Post by ramireja on Sept 29, 2015 11:21:19 GMT -5
I'll also go on record saying that I think the unwritten rules of baseball are a bit silly and outdated. Harper probably didn't deserve much in this particular case (is there video of the full at bat?). That said, that doesn't mean extreme ends of disrespect (e.g., staring down a pitcher and blowing a kiss at him after a HR) should be excused either.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 29, 2015 11:21:26 GMT -5
I was expecting this thread to entirely condemn Papelbon, and talk about these "unwritten rules" in baseball, and Harper's season in general, and was absolutely not expecting people to defend Papelbon. Like what? Is it not clear that chokeslamming the league MVP is a bad idea? That's assault, plain and simple, so why would someone defend Papelbon? I don't understand. If you care so much about the game being played with integrity and respect, how about a nice man to man talk; not, um, grabbing Bryce by the throat and pushing him into the wall? I'm not sure anyone (I shouldn't speak for jimed) is saying Papelbon's "assault" was warranted. I'm pretty sure the posters who you think are supporting Papelbon, are actually just saying that Harper's antics deserve some type of addressing. Now there are all kinds of problems with how Papelbon addressed it, for sure....I don't think any of us are saying otherwise. People are creating all types of straw mans in this thread. The only thing I've said/implied is that it's not that surprising that someone who screamed "let's go right now!" to a large angry man ended up getting attacked and that it's not right to put him on equal grounds of victimhood to some small old women who got hit in the back of the head with a pistol because she was carrying a purse that someone wanted to take from her. There were plenty of ways for Harper to avoid a physical confrontation, most of which would require him to try to act like a decent teammate. It's not hard to not get into fights with freaking teammates. If it is impossible to get alone with Papelbon, everyone would be fighting him. This one incident didn't happen in a vacuum.
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Post by burythehammer on Sept 29, 2015 11:43:13 GMT -5
nothing to contribute in terms of disagreeing with people, but I thought this was interesting: grantland.com/the-triangle/2015-mlb-washington-nationals-bryce-harper-jonathan-papelbon-fight-matt-williams/"A few years ago, I asked Evan Brunell, a deaf writer and skilled lipreader, to help me transcribe manager-umpire arguments. I asked Evan to take a look at this confrontation, too. Here’s what he thinks was said: Papelbon: … f***ing go! On the f***ing … Yeah, run the f***ing ball out. [Obscured swearing] … goddamn ball out. Harper: … the f*** up! Are you f***ing kidding me? Chill the f*** out, man. Let’s f***ing go! I’ll f***ing go right — If that transcript is accurate, Harper didn’t exactly deescalate, but this was all posturing until Papelbon charged without waiting to find out what would happen when Harper said “now.” In a span of five days, the 34-year-old Papelbon clashed with two athletes in their early 20s and managed to look like the one with the worst attitude and impulse control. He’s a Vin Scully clothesline away from having physically assaulted three of the best things about baseball. And while some people can’t help having infuriating faces, Papelbon wasn’t even trying to hide his smug grin." Good post. I would never argue that Pap was justified in putting his hands on someone, and I don't put "blame" on Harper, but I don't like that fact that people willfully ignore things like Harper basically saying, "Let's fight right now."
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Post by jmei on Sept 29, 2015 11:50:06 GMT -5
Well, we're trying to figure out who is in the wrong in this situation, and how good of a player Harper is absolutely ties in to answering that question. He's been the best player in baseball this year, which should more than excuse any momentary lack of hustle. So being the best player in the league excuses any of his behavior that we know of or don't know of? These things are never about one particular incident. Papelbon was waiting to jump on him for anything because of how Harper called him out to the media a few days earlier. If we can't assume that is true, then I guess I'll just let you invent my reality and give up. But that is what makes sense to me. To me, it absolutely excuses any of the behavior Harper is alleged to have committed. If you're the best player in baseball, I don't care that he called out a teammate in the media (which I have no problem with, by the way-- I also think throwing at a guy for hitting a home run is a clown move). It's not like he murdered someone in cold blood or assaulted a teammate or anything (see, I can use slippery slopes, too).
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Post by grandsalami on Sept 29, 2015 12:43:09 GMT -5
HOLY crap
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 29, 2015 13:04:23 GMT -5
Jesus, what a bunch of testosterone-fueled, little-boy nonsense. In the abstract, choosing between Harper and Papelbon would be like grabbing a rooting interest in 80s-era Iran-Iraq War. I mean, I guess I could spend the mental energy to do it, but why?
In this particular case, the guy who assaults another is by definition wrong. The end.
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Post by sammo420 on Sept 29, 2015 15:18:27 GMT -5
I guess it's okay to be a giant turd as long you're a talented giant turd.
I wonder if Jon Denney would be playing for us right now if he reached his ceiling?
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Post by humanbeingbean on Sept 29, 2015 16:35:43 GMT -5
I guess it's okay to be a giant turd as long you're a talented giant turd. I wonder if Jon Denney would be playing for us right now if he reached his ceiling? You think Harper being unagreeable to some is the same as Denney getting a DUI?
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Post by m1keyboots on Sept 29, 2015 16:49:43 GMT -5
I'm hoping all the people who side against Harper really enjoyed the Tom Brady witch hunt. Because it is the Exact Same Thing. I disagree, I watch Harper every day and his actions seem almost infantile at times. Examples-staring down several pitchers after homeruns that weren't late In the game or true bombs sprinting like he's chasing a perp on stand up doubles. Blaming basemen and cutoff men for his bad throws. Visual reactions to Soriano blowing games (another example of showing up teammates) Multiple times has he jawed at fans, I've seen it live, at games (I live 15 minutes from the stadium) Reacting to guys at the plate taking called third strikes or popping up (another show up). Acting like a child when his doubles go off the wall (like it's a double bro, quit shaking your head and mouthing "f****ng bs" on Masn while FP talks about how lucky the pitcher was Going apeballs when certain guys go yard and not even rrally congratulating CERTAIN guys. I'll leave it at that I've heard him from RF say "throw a f****ng strike" when someone is falling behind. There's many more examples lime having his back turned to teammates and coaches trying to talk to him. All that being said I enjoy watching Harper play, but he had it coming. It shouldn't have been by Papelbonkers, but over the last couple years even some Nats fans have turned on him. Please Bryce, Dont go to NY
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Post by thursty on Sept 29, 2015 16:55:51 GMT -5
I think one thing that's being missed, is that papelbon didn't give up the HR to Machado (who has demonstrated that he is a punk) Scherzer gave up the HR
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Post by ray88h66 on Sept 29, 2015 16:57:40 GMT -5
Ant hill says hello mountain.
Both guys were wrong.
I'm an old relic who grew up in Southie and Somerville in the 60's and early 70's. Barking, pointing, or touching meant being ready to go.
I'm glad things are different now. But the terms like assault, for what happened in the heat of sports would make some sports unplayable. Football is a series of "assaults". Hockey players would be guilty anytime the stick hit someone.
I'm also guessing the most outraged don't need a second hand to count their fistfights. Again, a good thing.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 29, 2015 17:02:00 GMT -5
I'm hoping all the people who side against Harper really enjoyed the Tom Brady witch hunt. Because it is the Exact Same Thing. I disagree, I watch Harper every day and his actions seem almost infantile at times. Examples-staring down several pitchers after homeruns that weren't late In the game or true bombs sprinting like he's chasing a perp on stand up doubles. Blaming basemen and cutoff men for his bad throws. Visual reactions to Soriano blowing games (another example of showing up teammates) Multiple times has he jawed at fans, I've seen it live, at games (I live 15 minutes from the stadium) Reacting to guys at the plate taking called third strikes or popping up (another show up). Acting like a child when his doubles go off the wall (like it's a double bro, quit shaking your head and mouthing "f****ng bs" on Masn while FP talks about how lucky the pitcher was Going apeballs when certain guys go yard and not even rrally congratulating CERTAIN guys. I'll leave it at that I've heard him from RF say "throw a f****ng strike" when someone is falling behind. There's many more examples lime having his back turned to teammates and coaches trying to talk to him. All that being said I enjoy watching Harper play, but he had it coming. It shouldn't have been by Papelbonkers, but over the last couple years even some Nats fans have turned on him. Please Bryce, Dont go to NY Nothing you've cited even remotely justifies a dude choking him. Especially not this dude:
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Post by ray88h66 on Sept 29, 2015 17:18:27 GMT -5
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Sept 29, 2015 18:01:56 GMT -5
I think it's fascinating to see all the reaction to this. Both players have perceived villainous qualities. I wonder if that is why everyone is so eager to voice an opinion.
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