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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,888
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Post by nomar on Aug 23, 2016 12:55:29 GMT -5
Agreed. The 8th inning isn't some big monster, and some would agree that even the 9th isn't either. Pitch whichever pitcher is best for the situation. For whatever reason, that pitcher has never been Ross for Farrell.
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Post by bosox81 on Aug 23, 2016 12:59:42 GMT -5
Does anyone else's face burn every time they read the phrase "8th inning guy?" Just me? I mean, I almost can wrap my head around the fact that there would be a "closer's mentaltiy" if I contort my head at a certain angle and watch Baseball Tonight too much for a couple months. But an "8th inning guy mentality?" 8th inning guy is just an awkward buzzword for "good pitcher." I'm not trying to pick on you kcsox - there was a huge discussion in the gameday thread today about whether Ross was an 8th inning guy or not and it aggravated me. Ross is a good pitcher and therefore should be used in high leverage situations, such as the 8th inning. I just commented on that in the GDT. I had not seen your post here. I completely agree. I don't understand why Farrell has to declare an 8th-inning guy.
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Post by sarasoxer on Aug 23, 2016 13:16:41 GMT -5
But isn't this endemic to baseball?
Don't all bullpens have something of a hierarchy and roll assignments?
In NY Betances was the 7th inning guy, Miller the 8th and Chapman the closer..etc...etc.
With the Sox that is not so distinct. Those calling for Ross can see that his performance is not particularly distinct from Barnes.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 23, 2016 15:24:54 GMT -5
In 10 relief appearances in AAA, Joe Kelly has 13 IP, 1ER, 1 BB and 20K.
Will be nice when 9/1 gets here.
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Post by bruinsfan94 on Aug 23, 2016 15:36:40 GMT -5
What do we think the pen looks like come the 40 man roster and end of Pawtuckets season? Where do Bucholz, Johnson, Owens, kelly come In? Anyone else?
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Post by sibbysisti on Aug 23, 2016 16:00:12 GMT -5
What do we think the pen looks like come the 40 man roster and end of Pawtuckets season? Where do Bucholz, Johnson, Owens, kelly come In? Anyone else? See below. Damned spellcheck.
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Post by sibbysisti on Aug 23, 2016 16:01:02 GMT -5
What do we think the pen looks like come the 40 man roster and end of Pawtuckets season? Where do Bucholz, Johnson, Owens, kelly come In? Anyone else? I think jimed,above, answered your question as it relates to Joe Kelly. I can see Johnson fitting in as a LH bullpen/starter after 09/01. Kyle Martin could be added, too, though he'd have to be on the 40 man to do so.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Aug 24, 2016 14:37:53 GMT -5
Slightly off topic. It appears to me that the Achilles heal of the team is now the bullpen. Yes I strongly advocated for acquiring a starting pitcher back in May. I think that it has helped the team by being able to sustain the inevitable injuries etc. Shortly we might have 6 viable starters again and in the playoffs we'll need 3, 4 tops. We know we could use Buchholz in the pen (if he keeps pitching like he has the past few starts he could force his way into the SP playoff pitcher (long shot but possible) and we may be able to have one of other non starting starters for the playoff turn to the pen to solidify it.
That said I say the single biggest off-season signing/trade would be for a top notch set-up/closer type pitcher (possibly 2). Sign Beltran for the DH spot and call it an off-season. Other moves can be made but that would be for 2018 and beyond.
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Post by Coreno on Aug 24, 2016 16:03:26 GMT -5
Heck yeah, let's trade for more closers!
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 24, 2016 16:56:25 GMT -5
Heck yeah, let's trade for more closers! There should be a sarcastic like button.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,941
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 1, 2016 12:30:06 GMT -5
The article re-tweeted by James on Terry Francona's use of Andrew Miller is one of the best pieces on bullpen management in recent memory. The contrast between Tito and JF is beyond vast in the direction of tragic. Something that would be smart if Uehara comes back strong, but, sadly, you'll likely never see: occasionally using Kimbrel as a relief ace and Uehara as closer. On a day when Kimbrel is limited to an inning (like yesterday), and the 8th inning is blowing up, Kimbrel gets out of the jam and Koji (whom JF believes is more effective in the 9th, and he may be right for once) closes it out.
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Post by GyIantosca on Sept 1, 2016 16:08:23 GMT -5
I hope they bring up a couple of arms for the pen, maybe finally Martin will be up. Even start him on low pressure spots if you have too. I like to see Kelly too. Taz is all done this year. All that action caught up to him. I hate to say it.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Sept 2, 2016 9:27:49 GMT -5
Koji is going to make/break our pen. If he's good, he's death on lefties. Maybe, use him and Ziggy in 7/8 depending on lefty/right matchups. Use Ross, Barnes and Kelly to get to 7th. Use Abad as a loogy only.
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Post by Legion of Bloom on Sept 2, 2016 11:25:58 GMT -5
Koji is going to make/break our pen. If he's good, he's death on lefties. Maybe, use him and Ziggy in 7/8 depending on lefty/right matchups. Use Ross, Barnes and Kelly to get to 7th. Use Abad as a loogy only. Farrell won't do that. His philosophy is that if he's bringing in a reliever, he has to get 3 outs. Same applies for Kimbrel, if the heart of the order and the game is going to be won or lost in the 8th, he's not coming in because of "saves". Farrell would rather lose with Clay or Barnes than use his best reliever in the most critical point of the game.
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Post by sibbysisti on Sept 2, 2016 12:00:44 GMT -5
I can't understand the strategy of removing a pitcher who pitches lights out in say, the 7th, in favor of "the eighth inning guy". Sure, pitchers like to know what their role will be. But if a guy shuts down the opposition in his one inning, feels good, and is also in a groove, what's the harm in letting him at least start the next inning?
Baseball has become so compartmentalized that it fails to take into account an individual's abilities. If a guy is "on", you should ride with him.
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Post by tjb21 on Sept 2, 2016 12:21:09 GMT -5
Bullpen usage is weird across most teams, not just Boston.
I agree that Koji is likely the key to stabilizing the bullpen at this point. Hopefully Joe surprises us -- in a good way, this time.
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Post by kyla13 on Sept 2, 2016 16:06:06 GMT -5
The article re-tweeted by James on Terry Francona's use of Andrew Miller is one of the best pieces on bullpen management in recent memory. The contrast between Tito and JF is beyond vast in the direction of tragic. Something that would be smart if Uehara comes back strong, but, sadly, you'll likely never see: occasionally using Kimbrel as a relief ace and Uehara as closer. On a day when Kimbrel is limited to an inning (like yesterday), and the 8th inning is blowing up, Kimbrel gets out of the jam and Koji (whom JF believes is more effective in the 9th, and he may be right for once) closes it out. “I hate waiting for the ninth inning,” Francona says. “I never did understand that. You know, you wait around, wait around, and you lose a game in the eighth. Well, wait a minute, that might’ve been the most important inning of the game.” ... “I think you open yourself up to be second-guessed by bringing somebody in early, but I’m OK with that because I know down deep it’s putting us in the best position to win,” he says. Why the @#%$ did we let go of this guy? And then disparage him after that there's a nil chance of him ever coming back?
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Post by threeifbaerga on Sept 2, 2016 16:15:05 GMT -5
The article re-tweeted by James on Terry Francona's use of Andrew Miller is one of the best pieces on bullpen management in recent memory. The contrast between Tito and JF is beyond vast in the direction of tragic. Something that would be smart if Uehara comes back strong, but, sadly, you'll likely never see: occasionally using Kimbrel as a relief ace and Uehara as closer. On a day when Kimbrel is limited to an inning (like yesterday), and the 8th inning is blowing up, Kimbrel gets out of the jam and Koji (whom JF believes is more effective in the 9th, and he may be right for once) closes it out. “I hate waiting for the ninth inning,” Francona says. “I never did understand that. You know, you wait around, wait around, and you lose a game in the eighth. Well, wait a minute, that might’ve been the most important inning of the game.” ... “I think you open yourself up to be second-guessed by bringing somebody in early, but I’m OK with that because I know down deep it’s putting us in the best position to win,” he says. Why the @#%$ did we let go of this guy? And then disparage him after that there's a nil chance of him ever coming back? To be fair it took him some time to learn this. I remember plenty of hand wringing and moaning about Tito's bullpen management.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 2, 2016 16:48:55 GMT -5
I also wonder how willing they'd have been to do this if
A) They didn't already have a good closer in Allen, B) Miller had been closing all season in NY, rather than only as the placeholder for Chapman and his replacement after he was traded, and along those lines if Miller had an established track record as "A Closer" and C) As a hypothetical, if they already had Miller and traded for Allen, if they would still deploy these two in this way.
I think it was kind of a unique situation in which they felt comfortable with this.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,941
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 2, 2016 17:53:38 GMT -5
“I hate waiting for the ninth inning,” Francona says. “I never did understand that. You know, you wait around, wait around, and you lose a game in the eighth. Well, wait a minute, that might’ve been the most important inning of the game.” ... “I think you open yourself up to be second-guessed by bringing somebody in early, but I’m OK with that because I know down deep it’s putting us in the best position to win,” he says. Why the @#%$ did we let go of this guy? And then disparage him after that there's a nil chance of him ever coming back? To be fair it took him some time to learn this. I remember plenty of hand wringing and moaning about Tito's bullpen management. All of that was about Tito playing the long game, though. For instance, there was a game they lost because he brought in a struggling Okajima, where the F.O. (including yours truly) was upset, but he thought it was important to give him an opportunity in high leverage to re-establish himself. He always had a big-picture rationale for what were questionable moves taken in isolation. In his first year as Sox manager, his bullpen management in the post-season was so good that Theo, Jed, and Josh Byrnes were still shaking their heads in amazement next February. IIRC, Theo called it "unbelievable." I wonder how many MLB pitchers fit these criteria for their last ever pro performance: winning pitcher with more than one inning of scoreless relief in extra innings of an elimination game; team went on to win the WS. If you want to narrow it down, regular season ERA- and xFIP- of over 100 (108 and 111 in this case). Maybe Tito got lucky with that move, but I remember thinking he was the best choice (the alternatives were Wakefield and Mendoza).
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,837
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 2, 2016 18:27:25 GMT -5
It's a topic for an off-season thread but I've been thinking about whether it would be plausible for a team with an established closer who's not going to be pushed into another role (somebody like, let's say, Craig Kimbrel) giving closer money and years to another stud with the understanding that the new guy will be used as a relief ace. He'd come in to pitch in the 7th or 8th, or whenever the manager felt the game was on the line. It would be another step in the evolution of BPs that began in the 1970s. I'm thinking, of course, of the RS trying to sell Aroldis Chapman on this idea. The key would be money. You'd have to be willing to pay your relief ace like an elite closer. OTOH, Massachusetts is a pretty tough state when it comes to gun control, so maybe Chapman isn't the guy to bring here.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 3, 2016 4:40:31 GMT -5
The article re-tweeted by James on Terry Francona's use of Andrew Miller is one of the best pieces on bullpen management in recent memory. The contrast between Tito and JF is beyond vast in the direction of tragic. Something that would be smart if Uehara comes back strong, but, sadly, you'll likely never see: occasionally using Kimbrel as a relief ace and Uehara as closer. On a day when Kimbrel is limited to an inning (like yesterday), and the 8th inning is blowing up, Kimbrel gets out of the jam and Koji (whom JF believes is more effective in the 9th, and he may be right for once) closes it out. It's hard to imagine that Farrell and Tito were on the same coaching staff. Farrell hadn't picked up any managing secrets that Tito left for him and Farrell has been managing for years. Tito was the best game managing manager of my time as a Sox fan, now it's paying off for the Indians.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2016 6:02:24 GMT -5
I think it's the AL-best 3.80 rotation ERA that's paying off for the Indians.
That said, if I could swap Farrell for Francona, I'd do it in a heartbeat and not think twice about it.
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Post by soxjim on Sept 3, 2016 10:07:37 GMT -5
The Sox best chance at a reliable 8th inning guy is for Koji to return healthy and rested. My fingers are crossed. It could be a huge boost. I think Koji is done. I think we're going to be very disappointed once we use him in high leverage situations.
Keep using Buchholz or Zeigler in 8th.
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Post by dmaineah on Sept 6, 2016 9:47:39 GMT -5
I do not think the Red Sox have the Bullpen arms to get the big bats out late in the game against the Division teams for the stretch run & it will be the reason they miss the playoffs.
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