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How do you improve the Red Sox
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Post by jmei on Jun 12, 2016 8:41:17 GMT -5
It's tough to spend your scarce trade capital on a mid-season buy-low acquisition when you're in the playoff hunt, especially when you have your fair share of buy-low-type players in the organization already (Buchholz, Kelly, Owens). When you're already in a playoff spot, you tend to want to reduce the downside of your roster, not increase the upside.
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Jun 12, 2016 9:14:10 GMT -5
That's absolutely a fair point Jmei, but I think what others of us are saying is that we'd rather spend said trade capital on a young pitcher with upside who is just as likely to continue to improve this year as the Rich Hill's of the world are to stay healthy and be effective.
In a more general "acquisition" sense, speaking just for myself here, I've been consistent in saying from the winter that I think anyone who expected Clay Buchholz to be good this season (based off his prior 5 years of track record) was mistaken and since he was acquired, I've thought Joe Kelly was a mistake and a guy who couldn't pitch in the AL East.
David Price is / will be fine. Rick Porcello is pitching the way he has most of his career, which is fine as your third starter. Steven Wright has been an absolute Godsend (and pitching like a one) but I think most of us expect at the end of the year he'll have something around a 4.00ERA (call that a 3/4). I love Eduardo Rodriguez, and certainly want him in the rotation and on the team, but he is a 5.
Clay Buchholz will continue to be terrible this year (like he was in 2012 and 2014), Joe Kelly is awful and Henry Owens has no control (even in AAA). If someone wants this team to be a World Series contender (this year, or for the next couple) we need to acquire a true number 2 starter via trade or have Eduardo Rodriguez become that. If we can't acquire that this trade deadline, then I think the right move is to go after another pitcher you can depend on to give you more than the less than 1/3 of a chance to stay in a game that Buccholz and Kelly have given the team this year.
*That "less than 1/3" number comes from looking at game logs this year between Kelly and Buchholz. They have given the team what I think most fans of the Red Sox would consider a reasonable chance to win based on this offense in 5 of their 16 starts. They need another pitcher who can be reasonably expected in 2016 to not suck. We really don't have another pitcher in the organization who should be expcted to provide that this season.
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Post by cologneredsox on Jun 12, 2016 10:39:50 GMT -5
That's absolutely a fair point Jmei, but I think what others of us are saying is that we'd rather spend said trade capital on a young pitcher with upside who is just as likely to continue to improve this year as the Rich Hill's of the world are to stay healthy and be effective. In a more general "acquisition" sense, speaking just for myself here, I've been consistent in saying from the winter that I think anyone who expected Clay Buchholz to be good this season (based off his prior 5 years of track record) was mistaken and since he was acquired, I've thought Joe Kelly was a mistake and a guy who couldn't pitch in the AL East. David Price is / will be fine. Rick Porcello is pitching the way he has most of his career, which is fine as your third starter. Steven Wright has been an absolute Godsend (and pitching like a one) but I think most of us expect at the end of the year he'll have something around a 4.00ERA (call that a 3/4). I love Eduardo Rodriguez, and certainly want him in the rotation and on the team, but he is a 5. Clay Buchholz will continue to be terrible this year (like he was in 2012 and 2014), Joe Kelly is awful and Henry Owens has no control (even in AAA). If someone wants this team to be a World Series contender (this year, or for the next couple) we need to acquire a true number 2 starter via trade or have Eduardo Rodriguez become that. If we can't acquire that this trade deadline, then I think the right move is to go after another pitcher you can depend on to give you more than the less than 1/3 of a chance to stay in a game that Buccholz and Kelly have given the team this year. *That "less than 1/3" number comes from looking at game logs this year between Kelly and Buchholz. They have given the team what I think most fans of the Red Sox would consider a reasonable chance to win based on this offense in 5 of their 16 starts. They need another pitcher who can be reasonably expected in 2016 to not suck. We really don't have another pitcher in the organization who should be expcted to provide that this season. I don't get why you think that the status quo will be what will happen for the whole season (with the exception of Wright, were you project regression, although no argument for that was given either). More likely is a scenario in which Rodriguez will improve, Owens gets to the shape he played last season and even buch will be a bit more lucky.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jun 12, 2016 11:07:47 GMT -5
I love the just dial 1-800 number2 to solve our problems theory. There are prob a dozen pitchers out there whom meet that criteria. I don't think any are reasonably obtainable. Most, are un-obtainable. With some of our prospects injured, and others not doing so well. I'm ready to just roll with what we've got. Pick up a LH bat and try to club teams like 03 squad. Damn near worked.
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steveofbradenton
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Post by steveofbradenton on Jun 12, 2016 11:31:28 GMT -5
Buchholz drives us all crazy, but I would not be surprised if he has an OK 2nd half. I hope the front office (DD) does not even think about trading our top 4 prospects. This organization has the potential to be really good for 5 years+ without having to worry much about free agency.
I'm most disappointed that Brian Johnson is not available as this time. I honestly can say he could be a great #5....a real innings eater. I've always liked him better than Henry Owens and Matt Barnes as a future rotation fixture.
I can see DD picking up someone like Jeremy Hellickson who is making a come-back this season and has pitched very effectively in the AL East for Tampa.
A lefty reliever who can get out BOTH lefties and righties is a must for me.
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Jun 12, 2016 12:51:40 GMT -5
Absolutely should have cited Cologne, though I have laid this out in other various threads, probably should have here.
Quickly speaking - Wright has 11 MLB starts going into this year, with an ERA roughly around 4.00, backed up by 7 seasons spent between AA and AAA where he had an ERA of about 3.60. Quite simply, his numbers in the minors project him to be a high 3s ERA starter in the bigs - and that's what he was for his 11 starts going into this season. I think Wright is a good major league pitcher, and very valuable, but I don't think he's going to finish the season in the AL ERA leaders.
Regarding Buchholz, he has a very clear pattern over the past 6 seasons (starting with 2011). He will be excellent for about half a season, get hurt, be quite bad the following season, be excellent for half a season and get hurt, etc, etc. This is exactly what happened in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 and to this point this season. There are 5 prior seasons of data that predict this to be a bad year and next year for him to be elite for about 15 starts prior to getting hurt. My best guess for this is that after getting injured, his next season is basically "rehab" or regaining a feel for his stuff. Unfortunately, I think that means there is no reason to expect him to right the ship this year.
Joe Kelly and his issues are well documented here - I seriously doubt anyone projects him to be much of anything the rest of this season.
Regarding Henry Owens, he has roughly 40 starts in AAA whwere he has exhibited a disturbing lack of control. He has walked over 4 batters per 9 innings at the AAA level, with a k/bb ratio of less than 2. Predictably, once he got to the majors the lack of control really caught up to his ERA (he has a 1.6 k/bb ratio, walking nearly 4.5 batters per 9), so having an ERA of 4.66 after 15 starts isn't surprising. Could he improve, absolutely, but his control hasn't improved in parts of 3 seasons at AAA, so I'm not terribly optimistic it's going to right itself in the next four months. For a team like the Red Sox, I think having a number 5 starter that is young with a ton of upside is a great thing - I'd probably want Owens up here taking the 5th slot if we didn't essentially already have that in Eduardo Rodriguez (and I think his upside is much greater than Owens').
Those are the reasons that I project either regression (in the form of Wright) or continued ineptitude (Buchholz, Kelly and Owens) for the remainder of 2016 - and why I think it's imperative the team find another dependable starter.
Steve - for the most part, I agree with you regarding the top five prospects. The only way I want any of those guys moved is for someone that is a number 2 or better starter, below the age of 30, and with at least two seasons of control beyond this one. If we're moving them for that player, I think it's a wise move. If it's for anything below that calibre, agree, there is no chance I want them included. I mean, we all like Benintendi a ton, but would anyone really have a problem with it if he were moved as the main piece for Chris Sale or Jose Quintana, I don't think so.
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Post by hinder1 on Jun 12, 2016 15:02:58 GMT -5
Trading Buchholz is addition by subtraction. We have seen enough of this stiff for 10 years. He doesn't have good stuff any more and the fast ball has been in the low 90's all year at best. This guy pitches like he's still got an arm issue. Time to cut bait with this guy and let someone else have the headache. You can't be throwing away games when you are tied for 1st in June hoping this stiff finally turns into a real pitcher. We know the track record and he's due to go down with another season ending injury. Be done with the guy and pick up some veteran recently released who might give you 2 or 3 good starts as a #5 guy - that is more than Clay gives you.
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Post by jmei on Jun 12, 2016 15:10:56 GMT -5
Regarding Buchholz, he has a very clear pattern over the past 6 seasons (starting with 2011). He will be excellent for about half a season, get hurt, be quite bad the following season, be excellent for half a season and get hurt, etc, etc. This is exactly what happened in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 and to this point this season. There are 5 prior seasons of data that predict this to be a bad year and next year for him to be elite for about 15 starts prior to getting hurt. My best guess for this is that after getting injured, his next season is basically "rehab" or regaining a feel for his stuff. Unfortunately, I think that means there is no reason to expect him to right the ship this year. You've mentioned this "pattern" argument before and have conceded that, upon closer inspection, it doesn't actually hold ( link). Buchholz is certainly inconsistent, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. He's come back from bad starts to the season before-- see, e.g., 2014.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Jun 12, 2016 15:13:33 GMT -5
So what? Does this really mean anything? This is a great way to look at building a rotation in the offseason, to figure out where to spend one's limited resources, but it makes no sense during the season. During the season, one has to look at the competition that exists, the dynamics of a starting staff, and the rest of the roster before you can say a rotation is likely to be good enough to win in the post-season. You cannot just plug in pitching staff WAR or do the kind of simplistic analysis that you did above and conclude the rotation is good enough to end all discussion of a rotation upgrade. The impacts of having a poor 4th or 5th starter go beyond the impacts on the games they lose. A string of poor performances by a starting pitcher stresses bullpens and puts pressure on the other starters, preventing them skipping a start or babying a nagging injury in August or September. It also puts pressure on depth. Just because teams win it all with good-but-not great or even subpar rotations doesn't mean that it is fruitless to discuss rotation upgrades. Our top three pitchers have pretty significant question marks. We have already seen our most consistent starter, Wright, have a bad game during wet weather because of his difficulty gripping a wet ball, and that seems to be an unavoidable issue for him. Price has looked mostly okay, but not particularly ace-like, and there is that annoying factoid that he has traditionally sucked in the post season, with some rumblings that it may be a matter of stuff, not luck. Porcello is solid, but it is probably not realistic to expect him to shut down a top offense. Rodriquez is still bit of a short-term wild-card, he really doesn't have that long of a mlb track record. The question of how to improve the Red Sox is pretty straightforward. Better pitching and maybe an upgrade at the catcher position and/or left field. But that is not really the issue. The real question is whether one thinks they are good enough, or could be could enough, to win the World Series and how much of a prospect sacrifice one is willing to endure in order to increase the odds of winning a world series. It is a given that upgrading during the season is going to be expensive, but would it be worth it? Cutting to the chase, do the Sox have a good enough chance, with upgrades at certain positions, of defeating the Cubs in the world series? Are these odds good enough that they justify overpaying for help? (Not to say the Cubs are going to make it that far, but they are a convenient benchmark to take measure of the Sox) There is a real chance that DDo goes hog wild and makes a really big trade, but I think the trade deadline might be Cherington-esque, with no movement because the cost in prospects is too high to make a meaningful deal. And that would be okay. Making no moves may be the best decision if the cost is too high and the benefit too small/too high risk. Just to be clear, a certain amount of overpay to increase the odds of winning in the post-season would be fine, and improvements in the team may be necessary to win it all. But.... the trade landscape is so barren that any hope of a "reasonable" trade cost probably not realistic, therefore leaving the team with no method to upgrade that makes sense. I was arguing against the perception that we need starting pitching, which was flatly asserted as a truth. It's not a truth. It's not remotely a truth. If you believe it to be truth, you cannot answer the question "how do you improve the Sox?" accurately. The facts about the quality of WS-winning #4 starters are completely relevant to that misperception. The notion that we need SP is a direct product of a wild over-estimation of the rotation quality that is required to win a WS. Whether acquiring a SP might or might not prove to be a good way to improve the team, if it does not qualify as a need, is another question entirely. But as you say, given the cost, it seems unlikely. That doesn't mean you don't think about it now, however. I'm confused Eric by your own argument. Initially your set your own parameters around Kelly, Clay and E-rod and 2 of the 3 have failed miserably (not surprising to say the least) and the third, E-rod, still hasn't proven himself over a full season nor has he proven that he's 100% back nor should we put such high expectations for a second year pitcher. No-one here thinks he won't be a good pitcher but it often takes around 2 full years to for pitchers to establish themselves and to bank on it happening sooner is not wise in the least. The argument has never been do we need better SP to reach the post-season but rather to win it all we likely need better SP. From the time I made the initial post that point has been strengthened by what has taken place.
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Post by dnfl333 on Jun 12, 2016 19:19:02 GMT -5
Samardzija 5 for 90 would look good right now wouldn't he? Why Dombrowski handcuffed himself by picking up the CBuc option is beyond me.
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Post by kingofthetrill on Jun 12, 2016 19:37:29 GMT -5
Samardzija 5 for 90 would look good right now wouldn't he? Why Dombrowski handcuffed himself by picking up the CBuc option is beyond me. Well, for one, $13 Million, while tied for 5th highest on the team, is not that much for a starter who has had some flashes of brilliance. There are probably a few starters that make more than Clay this season that did not have as good of a year last season. Obviously nobody would pay $13 Million for what Buchholz has done this season, but we don't have the benefit of that knowledge prior to picking up the option. If we did, I'd have enough money from the stock market alone to never have to think twice about adding guacamole to anything. Since we don't have the knowledge of 2016 stats at the time of the option, we are left with 2015. At that point, The Shark had a 4.31 xFIP, his lowest K/9 since 2010 with 6.86, his highest HR/9 since 2010 with 1.22, and his lowest GB% since 2010 with 39%. This was good for 2.7 fWAR based on the fact that he pitched 214 innings. Clay Buchholz, in that time, had a 3.30 xFIP, his highest K/9 in the majors since 2008 with 8.5, his lowest BB/9 in the majors ever with 1.83, his highest GB% since 2011 with 48.3%, and had his worst BABIP in a season since 2008 with .329. He had a 3.2 fWAR in only 113.1 innings. Since The Shark had his worst season since 2011 last year, would you have been comfortable offering him 5 years at $18M per year, or Buchholz on 1 year $13M (and a club option for $13.5M next season. I also wouldn't use the term "handcuff" with regards to a 1 year deal. He can be gone for good next season for all I know. Contracts like Crawford, Sandoval, Hanley, and heck even Price may have or may continue to handcuff us. Dombrowski also wouldn't be the first person I'd blame for the Buchholz contract/underperformance either.
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Post by kingofthetrill on Jun 12, 2016 20:02:37 GMT -5
FYI, here are the pitchers that make more or equal money to Clay Buchholz this year and their last year fWar.
Clay Buchholz $13M 3.2 fWAR Rick Porcello $20M 1.6 fWAR David Price $30M 6.4 fWAR CC Sabathia $25M 1.2 fWAR Masahiro Tanaka $22M 2.2 fWAR James Shields $21M 1.1 fWAR Anibal Sanchez $16.8M .9fWAR Justin Verlander $28M 2.8 fWAR Jordan Zimmermann $18M 3 fWAR Ervin Santana $13.5M 1.3 fWAR Jered Weaver $20.2M .6 fWAR CJ Wilson $20.5M 1.4 fWAR King Felix $25.8M 2.8 fWAR Cole Hamels $22.5M 4.2 fWAR Max Scherzer $22.1M 6.4 fWAR Matt Harrison $13M -.1 fWAR Francisco Liriano $13.6M 3.6 fWAR Adam Wainwright $19.5M .9 fWAR (In his defense he was injured) John Lackey $16M 3.6 fWAR Jon Lester $25M 5 fWAR Homer Bailey $18M -.2 fWAR Brett Anderson $15.8M 1.7 fWAR Scott Kazmir $15M 2.4 fWAR Clayton Kershaw $33M 8.6 fWAR Matt Cain $20.8M -.5 fWAR Jonny Cueto $17.5M 4.1 fWAR Jake Peavy $15M 1.2 fWAR Zack Greinke $31.8M 5.9 fWAR
Not only does this illustrate that there are 27 pitchers that currently make more money than Clay Buchholz, but also that only 1/3 of them outperformed Clay Buchholz last year.
I don't think you can look at those numbers from last season and say that 5 years at $18M for the Shark is fine and that 1 year $13M for Clay Buchholz is not.
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Jun 12, 2016 20:13:54 GMT -5
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I don't believe I ever conceded the point that a pattern doesn't exist in that thread. However, your (perfectly valid) opinion is that this pattern isn't predictive (or isn't a pattern at all), my opinion is that it is a pattern and is predictive - it's also what has happened this year - like I predicted back in the off-season. I didn't see the need to continue to be argumentantive in that thread and don't want to derail this one based on semantics though, which is why I hadn't brought that up initally earlier today. Hopefully - as I said in that thread - we can just agree to disagree.
However, Cologne asked me a very fair question, why I thought there would be some regression from Wright and that I didn't expect any improvement from Buchholz, Kelly and Owens, and I was just trying to answer based on the history of the players involved and how that lead me to my conclusion.
I hope this isn't too argumentative (and if so, please feel free to remove the post to any mods) but it's certainly instrumental to my larger point which is that I believe the biggest need for this team is to acquire another decent starting pitcher if they want to seriously contend for more than a brief playoff experience this year. Principally, because I don't believe we presently have that in the organization, beyond potentially Elias, whom I want to see get the start the next time we have a need for a 5th starter.
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Post by dnfl333 on Jun 12, 2016 20:38:39 GMT -5
Samardzija 5 for 90 would look good right now wouldn't he? Why Dombrowski handcuffed himself by picking up the CBuc option is beyond me. Well, for one, $13 Million, while tied for 5th highest on the team, is not that much for a starter who has had some flashes of brilliance. There are probably a few starters that make more than Clay this season that did not have as good of a year last season. Obviously nobody would pay $13 Million for what Buchholz has done this season, but we don't have the benefit of that knowledge prior to picking up the option. If we did, I'd have enough money from the stock market alone to never have to think twice about adding guacamole to anything. Since we don't have the knowledge of 2016 stats at the time of the option, we are left with 2015. At that point, The Shark had a 4.31 xFIP, his lowest K/9 since 2010 with 6.86, his highest HR/9 since 2010 with 1.22, and his lowest GB% since 2010 with 39%. This was good for 2.7 fWAR based on the fact that he pitched 214 innings. Clay Buchholz, in that time, had a 3.30 xFIP, his highest K/9 in the majors since 2008 with 8.5, his lowest BB/9 in the majors ever with 1.83, his highest GB% since 2011 with 48.3%, and had his worst BABIP in a season since 2008 with .329. He had a 3.2 fWAR in only 113.1 innings. Since The Shark had his worst season since 2011 last year, would you have been comfortable offering him 5 years at $18M per year, or Buchholz on 1 year $13M (and a club option for $13.5M next season. I also wouldn't use the term "handcuff" with regards to a 1 year deal. He can be gone for good next season for all I know. Contracts like Crawford, Sandoval, Hanley, and heck even Price may have or may continue to handcuff us. Dombrowski also wouldn't be the first person I'd blame for the Buchholz contract/underperformance either. JS has a track record of a durable top of the rotation starter. Worth every penny. At some point you have to take the Patriots approach and dump these players while they have some value or the track record of inconsistency outweighs the contract they have. It's a fine line but that is the business your in. 31 mill for Price while 37 got the Giants a #1 and 2 starter and less years. Dombrowski is off to a great start ain't he?
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 12, 2016 20:55:09 GMT -5
Well, for one, $13 Million, while tied for 5th highest on the team, is not that much for a starter who has had some flashes of brilliance. There are probably a few starters that make more than Clay this season that did not have as good of a year last season. Obviously nobody would pay $13 Million for what Buchholz has done this season, but we don't have the benefit of that knowledge prior to picking up the option. If we did, I'd have enough money from the stock market alone to never have to think twice about adding guacamole to anything. Since we don't have the knowledge of 2016 stats at the time of the option, we are left with 2015. At that point, The Shark had a 4.31 xFIP, his lowest K/9 since 2010 with 6.86, his highest HR/9 since 2010 with 1.22, and his lowest GB% since 2010 with 39%. This was good for 2.7 fWAR based on the fact that he pitched 214 innings. Clay Buchholz, in that time, had a 3.30 xFIP, his highest K/9 in the majors since 2008 with 8.5, his lowest BB/9 in the majors ever with 1.83, his highest GB% since 2011 with 48.3%, and had his worst BABIP in a season since 2008 with .329. He had a 3.2 fWAR in only 113.1 innings. Since The Shark had his worst season since 2011 last year, would you have been comfortable offering him 5 years at $18M per year, or Buchholz on 1 year $13M (and a club option for $13.5M next season. I also wouldn't use the term "handcuff" with regards to a 1 year deal. He can be gone for good next season for all I know. Contracts like Crawford, Sandoval, Hanley, and heck even Price may have or may continue to handcuff us. Dombrowski also wouldn't be the first person I'd blame for the Buchholz contract/underperformance either. JS has a track record of a durable top of the rotation starter. Worth every penny. At some point you have to take the Patriots approach and dump these players while they have some value or the track record of inconsistency outweighs the contract they have. It's a fine line but that is the business your in. 31 mill for Price while 37 got the Giants a #1 and 2 starter and less years. Dombrowski is off to a great start ain't he? It could still work out for the Sox, though. JS turned down a QO offer from the White Sox, so if the Sox had signed the Shark, they wouldn't have had the 12th pick in the draft, which wound up becoming Jay Groome, which could be a very fortunate turn of events for the Red Sox down the road. Too early to tell, but down the road, I'd probably prefer Price, who I think will pitch well for 5 of those 7 years, and Groome, who has a high a ceiling as any Red Sox pitching prospect as had in awhile (he and Espinoza both have high ceilings which is quite exciting). I wish the Sox had the money to grab Cueto. I always liked him and think he would have been great with Price and he, too, wouldn't have cost a draft pick, and he definitely had interest in coming to Boston. Unfortunately, one bad and one worthless waste of a contract got in the way of that happening.
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Post by kingofthetrill on Jun 12, 2016 20:55:48 GMT -5
JS has a track record of a durable top of the rotation starter. Worth every penny. At some point you have to take the Patriots approach and dump these players while they have some value or the track record of inconsistency outweighs the contract they have. It's a fine line but that is the business your in. 31 mill for Price while 37 got the Giants a #1 and 2 starter and less years. Dombrowski is off to a great start ain't he? Don't forget that Jeff Samardzjia cost a draft pick too. Not only would we be looking at 5 years and $18M for a pitcher that was not as good as Buchholz last year, but we'd also have lost our first round pick. Do you think we get Jason Groome without our pick at #12? Jeff Samardzjia's season fWAR's are 2008 .5 2009 -.4 2010 -.5 2011 .6 2012 2.7 2013 2.7 2014 4.1 2015 2.7 2016 thus far 1.3 I will give you that he's durable, but I don't consider him an established top of the rotation starter. If I had more time/energy at the moment, I'd look up the number of pitchers outperforming him this season. I do not understand your point about the Patriots. Clay Buchholz performed well last year. It seems like you are using 2016 hindsight and acting like it's clear that this would all happen come decision time in 2016. If you really are psychic, then I would love to travel back in time to last year and use your 100% predicting powers to get the Powerball numbers. My point, snark aside, is that things happen. Sometimes you get lucky, unlucky. People make signings that do not turn out well, but you cannot 100% directly conflate results with whether or not something was a good decision. In other words, would I rather have Jeff Samardzjia right now than Clay Buccholz? Yes. But in order to be angry at the Front Office you have to be able to prove that not only was this a bad decision, but that this was a bad decision AT THE TIME the decision was made. And I do not think that you can prove that.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 13, 2016 6:32:40 GMT -5
Whatever we did was wrong, we should have done anything different because it would have automatically been better because it was different. Of course Samardzija would have been exactly as good pitching 2/3rds of his games in Boston, NY, Baltimore and Toronto as he is in the giant parks in the NL West. And if he wasn't just as good, we could have been b*tching about that too, so that's a bonus.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jun 13, 2016 7:45:49 GMT -5
I really don't think we can afford to trade one of the top 5 prospects, assuming Groome signs. Both literally and figuratively, already pushing 200 mil for the payroll, we will need some cheap players for the next core group of guys. I honestly don't think playing musical chairs for that fifth starter slot is a terrible option, given that fifth starters aren't even needed in the post season and fourth starters usually only get a couple starts. Elias was fairly decent for Seattle and Owens could still get it together.
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Post by kingofthetrill on Jun 13, 2016 7:58:56 GMT -5
Whatever we did was wrong, we should have done anything different because it would have automatically been better because it was different. Of course Samardzija would have been exactly as good pitching 2/3rds of his games in Boston, NY, Baltimore and Toronto as he is in the giant parks in the NL West. And if he wasn't just as good, we could have been b*tching about that too, so that's a bonus. Imagine that if we didn't pick up Buchholz option, and then he went to stay San Francisco and then we gave up a draft pick for The Shark? If Clay pitched well in San Francisco and The Shark struggled here, I guarantee that the same people would be complaining about the same thing but from the opposite side. And more people would be upset because we wouldn't have a first rounder, and the draft is the most wonderful time of the year around here.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jun 13, 2016 8:35:35 GMT -5
"We should have signed all the free agents that are currently performing well". Wow, brilliant analysis.
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Post by mgoetze on Jun 13, 2016 9:29:59 GMT -5
Quickly speaking - Wright has 11 MLB starts going into this year, with an ERA roughly around 4.00, backed up by 7 seasons spent between AA and AAA where he had an ERA of about 3.60. And in half those AA/AAA seasons he didn't even throw any knuckleballs. You'll excuse me for not reading the rest of your wall of text if this is the level of analysis you're going to give us.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jun 13, 2016 11:59:16 GMT -5
I was arguing against the perception that we need starting pitching, which was flatly asserted as a truth. It's not a truth. It's not remotely a truth. If you believe it to be truth, you cannot answer the question "how do you improve the Sox?" accurately. The facts about the quality of WS-winning #4 starters are completely relevant to that misperception. The notion that we need SP is a direct product of a wild over-estimation of the rotation quality that is required to win a WS. Whether acquiring a SP might or might not prove to be a good way to improve the team, if it does not qualify as a need, is another question entirely. But as you say, given the cost, it seems unlikely. That doesn't mean you don't think about it now, however. I'm confused Eric by your own argument. Initially your set your own parameters around Kelly, Clay and E-rod and 2 of the 3 have failed miserably (not surprising to say the least) and the third, E-rod, still hasn't proven himself over a full season nor has he proven that he's 100% back nor should we put such high expectations for a second year pitcher. No-one here thinks he won't be a good pitcher but it often takes around 2 full years to for pitchers to establish themselves and to bank on it happening sooner is not wise in the least. The argument has never been do we need better SP to reach the post-season but rather to win it all we likely need better SP. From the time I made the initial post that point has been strengthened by what has taken place. If you think there's a 40% chance that E-Rod (whose "miserable failure" consists of 1 good and 2 bad starts) turns out to be a solid #4 starter, and a 40% chance that Buchholz, ditto, then there's only a 34% chance that we need to get a starter. Declaring that the odds are already 100% is not remotely true. You have to reduce those odds of success from 40% to 30% before you even get to a 50-50 chance that we need another starter to be completely competitive in the post-season. To get it at 2-1, 18%. I will admit that when people state "we need another SP" as a truth, they would concede a 20% chance that we turn out not to need one. But that's saying that both E-Rod and Clay have only a 10% chance of being MLB average going forwards. That's absurdly too low. Oh, and this is counting Kelly, Owens, and Elias at 0%. The situation has certainly not improved, but it hasn't come close to approaching a need. I'd put the odds of getting league-average starting-pitching as 65% from E-Rod, 50% Buchholz, 15% for Kelly, and 10% for the other two, which is a 12% chance of needing to get somebody. You can cite your own more pessimistic set of numbers, but it's really hard to get the result well above 50%. BTW, I'm 100% on board with trying to figure out now what the best option is, should it come to pass. It's not that debate I'm trying to stifle, it's the sense of urgency which colors the debate and leads to a willingness to give up way too much for the benefit gained. Also BTW, I'm very certain that we have an acceptable #5 starter already. Based on his track record and last 5 AAA starts, Elias seems to be that guy.
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Post by kingofthetrill on Jun 13, 2016 13:50:03 GMT -5
Earlier I said that there were 3 main objectives to improving the team. One was getting a left handed LF, one was getting an at least decent starter, and the last (not in any order) was getting a reliable middle reliever. I think that Chris Young has been performing admirably recently, and depending on how long he keeps it up and how long Swihart is expected to be out, I'm wondering if we need to look elsewhere for this need. I think that ideally we would be able to solve at least one of these needs internally. If Chris Young continues to perform well and/or Swihart returns this season, we may be able to use our trade resources to go after the starter and/or reliever needs.
I would also propose a new goal of getting rid of Sandoval by any means necessary. Even if we eat 75% of the money, that will free up some funds to either extend our own guys, or sign whomever we choose to "replace" Big Papi. It will also give us some more roster flexibility should we have Hanley Ramirez, Travis Shaw, Sam Travis, Yoan Moncada, or Rafael Devers in the majors.
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Post by deepjohn on Jun 13, 2016 13:57:15 GMT -5
I'm confused Eric by your own argument. Initially your set your own parameters around Kelly, Clay and E-rod and 2 of the 3 have failed miserably (not surprising to say the least) and the third, E-rod, still hasn't proven himself over a full season nor has he proven that he's 100% back nor should we put such high expectations for a second year pitcher. No-one here thinks he won't be a good pitcher but it often takes around 2 full years to for pitchers to establish themselves and to bank on it happening sooner is not wise in the least. The argument has never been do we need better SP to reach the post-season but rather to win it all we likely need better SP. From the time I made the initial post that point has been strengthened by what has taken place. If you think there's a 40% chance that E-Rod (whose "miserable failure" consists of 1 good and 2 bad starts) turns out to be a solid #4 starter, and a 40% chance that Buchholz, ditto, then there's only a 3436% (FIFY) chance that we need to get a starter. Declaring that the odds are already 100% is not remotely true. You have to reduce those odds of success from 40% to 30% before you even get to a 50-50 chance that we need another starter to be completely competitive in the post-season. To get it at 2-1, 18%. I will admit that when people state "we need another SP" as a truth, they would concede a 20% chance that we turn out not to need one. But that's saying that both E-Rod and Clay have only a 10% chance of being MLB average going forwards. That's absurdly too low. Oh, and this is counting Kelly, Owens, and Elias at 0%. The situation has certainly not improved, but it hasn't come close to approaching a need. I'd put the odds of getting league-average starting-pitching as 65% from E-Rod, 50% Buchholz, 15% for Kelly, and 10% for the other two, which is a 12% chance of needing to get somebody. You can cite your own more pessimistic set of numbers, but it's really hard to get the result well above 50%. BTW, I'm 100% on board with trying to figure out now what the best option is, should it come to pass. It's not that debate I'm trying to stifle, it's the sense of urgency which colors the debate and leads to a willingness to give up way too much for the benefit gained. Also BTW, I'm very certain that we have an acceptable #5 starter already. Based on his track record and last 5 AAA starts, Elias seems to be that guy. eric, The difficulty here is pitchers just aren't very projectable, because their contact rates tend to vary so much for so many reasons. Confidence intervals tend to have a wide band. This can affect your odds dramatically, if you require a narrow confidence interval. If, in another words, this is the year you really "need" to win (pressure on the FO from above). So for example, with a wide confidence interval, Erod might have a very good chance of performing at the level of a league average number 4 in the playoffs. But .... with a tight confidence interval, there could be a much smaller, maybe 1 or 2% chance! Take all your Buchs, Kellys, Elias's, Owens's etc. and multiply their chances all together, and even so, if you make the confidence level high enough, you'll always have a too small chance that you'll have a #4 when you need it! This is why you might always really "need" better pitching. The better your pitching is, the tighter the confidence band is of a very good chance a pitcher will perform when you need him most in the post season. So the question looked at another way is, are you willing to acquire a higher confidence level this year in exchange for a lower confidence level of winning in the future, when you give up Devers, Owens? ADD: the jmei's of this board will likely say no (and continue to say no to the Kimbrel trade), while the DDo's of the board will say yes.
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Post by dnfl333 on Jun 13, 2016 14:11:26 GMT -5
JS has a track record of a durable top of the rotation starter. Worth every penny. At some point you have to take the Patriots approach and dump these players while they have some value or the track record of inconsistency outweighs the contract they have. It's a fine line but that is the business your in. 31 mill for Price while 37 got the Giants a #1 and 2 starter and less years. Dombrowski is off to a great start ain't he? Don't forget that Jeff Samardzjia cost a draft pick too. Not only would we be looking at 5 years and $18M for a pitcher that was not as good as Buchholz last year, but we'd also have lost our first round pick. Do you think we get Jason Groome without our pick at #12? Jeff Samardzjia's season fWAR's are 2008 .5 2009 -.4 2010 -.5 2011 .6 2012 2.7 2013 2.7 2014 4.1 2015 2.7 2016 thus far 1.3 I will give you that he's durable, but I don't consider him an established top of the rotation starter. If I had more time/energy at the moment, I'd look up the number of pitchers outperforming him this season. I do not understand your point about the Patriots. Clay Buchholz performed well last year. It seems like you are using 2016 hindsight and acting like it's clear that this would all happen come decision time in 2016. If you really are psychic, then I would love to travel back in time to last year and use your 100% predIkmicting powers to get the Powerball numbers. My point, snark aside, is that things happen. Sometimes you get lucky, unlucky. People make signings that do not turn out well, but you cannot 100% directly conflate results with whether or not something was a good decision. In other words, would I rather have Jeff Samardzjia right now than Clay Buccholz? Yes. But in order to be angry at the Front Office you have to be able to prove that not only was this a bad decision, but that this was a bad decision AT THE TIME the decision was made. And I do not think that you can prove that. Bucholz minus rookie season, 9 years 2 of those years were productive. In one of those productive years he was injured after 15 starts. 7 unproductive/average and injured years resulted in a 5.5 ERA. Hardly productive in the post steroid era. JS 5 years as starter 3.8 ERA. You have to look at the entire body of work, injuries, run support, down years and all the stats that go with it. Factor in 44 million in salary, you haven't gotten a bang for your buck with CB. Patriots analogy was how the Patriots seem to know when a player is done and when to deal a player to get value in return before you get nothing. How long do you wait on the Kellys, Owens and such before you try to obtain value in a trade or miss out on a free agent that could help because you wait to long?
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