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How do you improve the Red Sox
radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,603
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Post by radiohix on Jun 8, 2016 12:41:17 GMT -5
Dmaineah buddy, just stop doing this man...One day it's promote Brentz to be the starting OFer, the next day move Price to the pen and now some insane trades propositions? Is this some kind of subtle trolling that I'm not aware of?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 8, 2016 12:52:24 GMT -5
Dmaineah buddy, just stop doing this man...One day it's promote Brentz to be the starting OFer, the next day move Price to the pen and now some insane trades propositions? Is this some kind of subtle trolling that I'm not aware of? I don't get it with his silly trade proposals as if they would happen and as if they should happen. We'd have absolutely no farm system left. It's almost the kind of thing an 8 year old would dream up. I will say that I like Dmaineah's avatar, though. I've always been a big Yaz fan. JimEd's also got a great avatar - Williams and Yaz. Surprised he doesn't have Mr. Rice on his avatar, though.
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Post by jclmontana on Jun 8, 2016 14:06:00 GMT -5
Does anyone else think Moncada and possibly Devers are not in the organization come August 1? The Red Sox are in a win now mode the next two to three years and need another pitcher. Benintendi is the only non-pitching prospect I see having a place on this team in that current window. Between the Travis and Swihart injuries and Devers inability to highlight a trade now, I think it's realistic to expect Moncada to be used as a center piece in a trade for a starting pitcher. No, they don't. They might, but it appears unlikely. Let me frame this yet another way. 2) Half the recent WS winners have had a #4 starter who was below MLB average, so they'll only need to get a #4 if their fourth best starter, whoever he is, is well below MLB average. That seems like an unlikely scenario for E-Rod -- you can imagine him being inconsistent and mediocre because of the aftermath of the knee injury, but bad? That's a stretch. So what? Does this really mean anything? This is a great way to look at building a rotation in the offseason, to figure out where to spend one's limited resources, but it makes no sense during the season. During the season, one has to look at the competition that exists, the dynamics of a starting staff, and the rest of the roster before you can say a rotation is likely to be good enough to win in the post-season. You cannot just plug in pitching staff WAR or do the kind of simplistic analysis that you did above and conclude the rotation is good enough to end all discussion of a rotation upgrade. The impacts of having a poor 4th or 5th starter go beyond the impacts on the games they lose. A string of poor performances by a starting pitcher stresses bullpens and puts pressure on the other starters, preventing them skipping a start or babying a nagging injury in August or September. It also puts pressure on depth. Just because teams win it all with good-but-not great or even subpar rotations doesn't mean that it is fruitless to discuss rotation upgrades. Our top three pitchers have pretty significant question marks. We have already seen our most consistent starter, Wright, have a bad game during wet weather because of his difficulty gripping a wet ball, and that seems to be an unavoidable issue for him. Price has looked mostly okay, but not particularly ace-like, and there is that annoying factoid that he has traditionally sucked in the post season, with some rumblings that it may be a matter of stuff, not luck. Porcello is solid, but it is probably not realistic to expect him to shut down a top offense. Rodriquez is still bit of a short-term wild-card, he really doesn't have that long of a mlb track record. The question of how to improve the Red Sox is pretty straightforward. Better pitching and maybe an upgrade at the catcher position and/or left field. But that is not really the issue. The real question is whether one thinks they are good enough, or could be could enough, to win the World Series and how much of a prospect sacrifice one is willing to endure in order to increase the odds of winning a world series. It is a given that upgrading during the season is going to be expensive, but would it be worth it? Cutting to the chase, do the Sox have a good enough chance, with upgrades at certain positions, of defeating the Cubs in the world series? Are these odds good enough that they justify overpaying for help? (Not to say the Cubs are going to make it that far, but they are a convenient benchmark to take measure of the Sox) There is a real chance that DDo goes hog wild and makes a really big trade, but I think the trade deadline might be Cherington-esque, with no movement because the cost in prospects is too high to make a meaningful deal. And that would be okay. Making no moves may be the best decision if the cost is too high and the benefit too small/too high risk. Just to be clear, a certain amount of overpay to increase the odds of winning in the post-season would be fine, and improvements in the team may be necessary to win it all. But.... the trade landscape is so barren that any hope of a "reasonable" trade cost probably not realistic, therefore leaving the team with no method to upgrade that makes sense.
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,840
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Post by steveofbradenton on Jun 8, 2016 14:25:21 GMT -5
“@billkoch25: #PawSox manager Kevin Boles said Joe Kelly left tonight’s start with right groin injury. Felt something pitch before his last of the night.” He's got great stuff though. THAT will be on his tomb stone!
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 9,020
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Post by ericmvan on Jun 8, 2016 14:48:57 GMT -5
No, they don't. They might, but it appears unlikely. Let me frame this yet another way. 2) Half the recent WS winners have had a #4 starter who was below MLB average, so they'll only need to get a #4 if their fourth best starter, whoever he is, is well below MLB average. That seems like an unlikely scenario for E-Rod -- you can imagine him being inconsistent and mediocre because of the aftermath of the knee injury, but bad? That's a stretch. So what? Does this really mean anything? This is a great way to look at building a rotation in the offseason, to figure out where to spend one's limited resources, but it makes no sense during the season. During the season, one has to look at the competition that exists, the dynamics of a starting staff, and the rest of the roster before you can say a rotation is likely to be good enough to win in the post-season. You cannot just plug in pitching staff WAR or do the kind of simplistic analysis that you did above and conclude the rotation is good enough to end all discussion of a rotation upgrade. The impacts of having a poor 4th or 5th starter go beyond the impacts on the games they lose. A string of poor performances by a starting pitcher stresses bullpens and puts pressure on the other starters, preventing them skipping a start or babying a nagging injury in August or September. It also puts pressure on depth. Just because teams win it all with good-but-not great or even subpar rotations doesn't mean that it is fruitless to discuss rotation upgrades. Our top three pitchers have pretty significant question marks. We have already seen our most consistent starter, Wright, have a bad game during wet weather because of his difficulty gripping a wet ball, and that seems to be an unavoidable issue for him. Price has looked mostly okay, but not particularly ace-like, and there is that annoying factoid that he has traditionally sucked in the post season, with some rumblings that it may be a matter of stuff, not luck. Porcello is solid, but it is probably not realistic to expect him to shut down a top offense. Rodriquez is still bit of a short-term wild-card, he really doesn't have that long of a mlb track record. The question of how to improve the Red Sox is pretty straightforward. Better pitching and maybe an upgrade at the catcher position and/or left field. But that is not really the issue. The real question is whether one thinks they are good enough, or could be could enough, to win the World Series and how much of a prospect sacrifice one is willing to endure in order to increase the odds of winning a world series. It is a given that upgrading during the season is going to be expensive, but would it be worth it? Cutting to the chase, do the Sox have a good enough chance, with upgrades at certain positions, of defeating the Cubs in the world series? Are these odds good enough that they justify overpaying for help? (Not to say the Cubs are going to make it that far, but they are a convenient benchmark to take measure of the Sox) There is a real chance that DDo goes hog wild and makes a really big trade, but I think the trade deadline might be Cherington-esque, with no movement because the cost in prospects is too high to make a meaningful deal. And that would be okay. Making no moves may be the best decision if the cost is too high and the benefit too small/too high risk. Just to be clear, a certain amount of overpay to increase the odds of winning in the post-season would be fine, and improvements in the team may be necessary to win it all. But.... the trade landscape is so barren that any hope of a "reasonable" trade cost probably not realistic, therefore leaving the team with no method to upgrade that makes sense. I was arguing against the perception that we need starting pitching, which was flatly asserted as a truth. It's not a truth. It's not remotely a truth. If you believe it to be truth, you cannot answer the question "how do you improve the Sox?" accurately. The facts about the quality of WS-winning #4 starters are completely relevant to that misperception. The notion that we need SP is a direct product of a wild over-estimation of the rotation quality that is required to win a WS. Whether acquiring a SP might or might not prove to be a good way to improve the team, if it does not qualify as a need, is another question entirely. But as you say, given the cost, it seems unlikely. That doesn't mean you don't think about it now, however.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 8, 2016 17:28:52 GMT -5
Does anybody know Brandon Workman's rehab update? Wow I hope he wasn't going all out. That is very low on the fastball.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jun 8, 2016 17:43:38 GMT -5
┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| _ ┻┳| •.•) I'd consider buying low ┳┻|⊂ノ on Yordano Ventura ┻┳|
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,840
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Post by steveofbradenton on Jun 8, 2016 18:52:03 GMT -5
┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| _ ┻┳| •.•) I'd consider buying low ┳┻|⊂ノ on Yordano Ventura ┻┳| Actually would like that explored myself. Love see Price and Papi get in his head.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jun 8, 2016 19:43:39 GMT -5
Actually would like that explored myself. Love see Price and Papi get in his head. I mean honestly he probably needs to see an actual therapist or something, and on top of that he's also broken as a pitcher. He's a reclamation project in almost every way, but in terms of what he might cost versus his upside, I don't know that you can do much better.
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Post by larrycook on Jun 8, 2016 20:36:25 GMT -5
Actually would like that explored myself. Love see Price and Papi get in his head. I mean honestly he probably needs to see an actual therapist or something, and on top of that he's also broken as a pitcher. He's a reclamation project in almost every way, but in terms of what he might cost versus his upside, I don't know that you can do much better. No denying his stuff is electric. Can you imagine him on the mets staff? Wow!
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Post by telson13 on Jun 8, 2016 22:57:49 GMT -5
How do you improve the Red Sox?
Starters (9)
C- Vazquez 1B- Ramirez 2B- Pedroia 3B- Shaw SS- Bogaerts LF- Yelich CF- Bradley RF- Betts DH- Ortiz Bench(4)
C- Hannigan UT- Holt OF- Young C/OF- Swihart
Starting Pitchers(5)
#1Price #2Archer #3Porcello #4Wright #5Rodriguez
Relief Pitchers(7)
CL-Kimbrell LH-Miller LH-Dolittle RH-Tazawa LH-Buchter RH-Barnes RH-Buchholz
Build the trade for Yelich around Moncada Build the trade for Archer around Espinoza Build the trade for Miller around Benintendi Build the trade for Doolittle around Chavis Build the trade for Buchter around Ball
Anyone who is not included in the trades can go back to AAA. If they are out of options they can be waived.
Bring up anyone you have to take the place of Holt & Swihart until they return from the DL.
This is the worst post I've seen here. Maybe we can retroactively repeat the Bagwell-Andersen trade, too. Trolling at its finest.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 9, 2016 8:04:24 GMT -5
Dmaineah buddy, just stop doing this man...One day it's promote Brentz to be the starting OFer, the next day move Price to the pen and now some insane trades propositions? Is this some kind of subtle trolling that I'm not aware of? I don't get it with his silly trade proposals as if they would happen and as if they should happen. We'd have absolutely no farm system left. It's almost the kind of thing an 8 year old would dream up. I will say that I like Dmaineah's avatar, though. I've always been a big Yaz fan. JimEd's also got a great avatar - Williams and Yaz. Surprised he doesn't have Mr. Rice on his avatar, though. I used to, but this pic is too good.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Jun 9, 2016 9:34:26 GMT -5
What, no Fisk fans here......Also, I can see the MFY trading peanuts for Ventura like they did with Chapman.
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Post by mgoetze on Jun 9, 2016 14:46:03 GMT -5
I think he's a good buy-low candidate. I think that's a smart approach in general, to find guys with requisite skills who've struggled with adjustments. Ortiz is a prime example. A lot won't pan out, but some will, in a big way, and the cost is low. I wish they'd do that more often with pitchers. Meanwhile, on otherteamprospects.com: "we should totally grab some buy-low candidates like Buchholz or Kelly".
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Post by jmei on Jun 9, 2016 15:01:08 GMT -5
I honestly think Clay Buchholz remains one of the five best starting pitchers in the organization. His granular plate discipline stats, though worse than his career marks, don't really support the collapse of his strikeout/walk rates. His fastball has been out of whack all season, but that's the sort of mechanical/feel thing that can come back at any moment, and it's not like they're overflowing with superior options.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,533
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Post by nomar on Jun 9, 2016 15:03:02 GMT -5
I agree that it makes no sense to trade Buchholz. Just hope he can find his repertoire from last year.
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,603
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Post by radiohix on Jun 9, 2016 15:30:31 GMT -5
Since I saw the Angels Shoemaker start vs the MFY the other day, I can't stop thinking about acuiring him: he pounds the strike zone, changes speed, keep hitters off balance, it looks like he made some changes lately that made him very good; His ERA is misleading (.337 BABIP, 65.3% LOB%), he's cheap with lots of years of control and the Angels are out of it anyway so maybe a package of low levels prospects with some projection may convince their FO to trade him.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Jun 10, 2016 9:30:28 GMT -5
Since I saw the Angels Shoemaker start vs the MFY the other day, I can't stop thinking about acuiring him: he pounds the strike zone, changes speed, keep hitters off balance, it looks like he made some changes lately that made him very good; His ERA is misleading (.337 BABIP, 65.3% LOB%), he's cheap with lots of years of control and the Angels are out of it anyway so maybe a package of low levels prospects with some projection may convince their FO to trade him. Good call, I saw him (on TV) pitch against the Astros a week or so ago & shut them down for 8 innings (11K). I would at least see what they would want. 29 years old. Already starting to see trades being made this early.
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Post by slam761 on Jun 10, 2016 19:15:35 GMT -5
While it's not the sexiest option, what about trying to get something like Pomeranz and Rodney/Villanueva from the Padres? Normally I'd want to stay the hell away from Fernando Rodney, but he's only allowed 8 hits and 10 walks in like 22 IP this year so he clearly has something left. Pomeranz makes next to nothing and can be controlled for a few more years so he won't be terribly cheap, but the Padres seem willing to trade him.
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Jun 11, 2016 10:09:42 GMT -5
The first thing I would do is give Roenis Elias the first crack at the 5th slot in the rotation next time the spot comes up.
Beyond that, I would 1000% love to target a "buy low" guy with upside. However, Yordano Ventura would sill cost a good amount to acquire - I'm not going to speculate on what he would cost, just to say that he isn't a guy I'd move any of Benintendi, Moncada or Espinoza for. Quite frankly, I'm not moving any of those three guys for literally* any pitcher that isn't Jose Fernandez, Chris Sale, Jose Quintana or maybe Chris Archer if there weren't other big time pieces inovlved.
While I love the idea of targeting "this year's version of last year's Taijuan Walker", you would need to find a competing team with a young pitcher like that who is drastically under-performing, because if not, what is the incentive to trade them. Think of it this way, what would we want for Eduardo Rodriguez - that's what it's going to cost for one of those type of pitchers.
From a "big trade" perspective, the guys I would target this year are players that are under control for several years, have a history of success, but are having a difficult year - thus leading their teams to be slightly more inclined sellers. In my opinion this means guys like Dallas Keuchel, Sonny Gray, or Chris Archer. Keep in mind, for these type of pithcers I still think you're looking at including several of players like Devers, Swihart, Owens, Sam Travis and Kopech. Greinke would ONLY be interesting to me if you were looking at a move of something like Greinke for several prospects in the 5-10 range and they take back both Sandoval and Castillo, in essence making Greinke's deal something around the lines of 5 years at $90M. Ultimately, I don't think Arizona would do that but, well, Dave Stewart.
Because I really don't think any of the three type of trades I mentioned above are going to be available, I think the most prudent move will be to target guys who are more likely to give you "less suck" than Clay Buchholz and Joe Kelly and won't likely cost anyone above a top 15 prospect. To my mind this is guys like Mat Latos, Doug Fister, or guys in AAA for another team like Nate Smith (LAA), Dillon Overton (OAK), or Adrian Sampson (SEA) who would give you more AAA pitching to throw against the wall and hope for the best.
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Post by ray88h66 on Jun 11, 2016 10:15:51 GMT -5
Actually would like that explored myself. Love see Price and Papi get in his head. I mean honestly he probably needs to see an actual therapist or something, and on top of that he's also broken as a pitcher. He's a reclamation project in almost every way, but in terms of what he might cost versus his upside, I don't know that you can do much better. KC seems to be done with him. I've never seen a catcher let I guy go get his pitcher like what happened the other day.
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Post by telson13 on Jun 11, 2016 21:55:17 GMT -5
The first thing I would do is give Roenis Elias the first crack at the 5th slot in the rotation next time the spot comes up. Beyond that, I would 1000% love to target a "buy low" guy with upside. However, Yordano Ventura would sill cost a good amount to acquire - I'm not going to speculate on what he would cost, just to say that he isn't a guy I'd move any of Benintendi, Moncada or Espinoza for. Quite frankly, I'm not moving any of those three guys for literally* any pitcher that isn't Jose Fernandez, Chris Sale, Jose Quintana or maybe Chris Archer if there weren't other big time pieces inovlved. While I love the idea of targeting "this year's version of last year's Taijuan Walker", you would need to find a competing team with a young pitcher like that who is drastically under-performing, because if not, what is the incentive to trade them. Think of it this way, what would we want for Eduardo Rodriguez - that's what it's going to cost for one of those type of pitchers. From a "big trade" perspective, the guys I would target this year are players that are under control for several years, have a history of success, but are having a difficult year - thus leading their teams to be slightly more inclined sellers. In my opinion this means guys like Dallas Keuchel, Sonny Gray, or Chris Archer. Keep in mind, for these type of pithcers I still think you're looking at including several of players like Devers, Swihart, Owens, Sam Travis and Kopech. Greinke would ONLY be interesting to me if you were looking at a move of something like Greinke for several prospects in the 5-10 range and they take back both Sandoval and Castillo, in essence making Greinke's deal something around the lines of 5 years at $90M. Ultimately, I don't think Arizona would do that but, well, Dave Stewart. Because I really don't think any of the three type of trades I mentioned above are going to be available, I think the most prudent move will be to target guys who are more likely to give you "less suck" than Clay Buchholz and Joe Kelly and won't likely cost anyone above a top 15 prospect. To my mind this is guys like Mat Latos, Doug Fister, or guys in AAA for another team like Nate Smith (LAA), Dillon Overton (OAK), or Adrian Sampson (SEA) who would give you more AAA pitching to throw against the wall and hope for the best. As far as the comparison to ERod, I think that's way off. He had significant success last year, and has simply struggled some this year due to injury. The "buy-low" guy is someone who's never had that type of sustained success, or is in an extended period of regressed performance. Actually, I was thinking that they might want to try prying James Paxton from Seattle.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Jun 12, 2016 8:07:27 GMT -5
Cueto was pretty bad in a lot of his starts for KC though. Yet most Sox fans argue that Peavy was good for us. The Sox won despite Peavy not because of him. His 1 good solid playoff start is hardly praise.
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Post by malynn19 on Jun 12, 2016 8:17:52 GMT -5
┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| ┻┳| ┳┻| _ ┻┳| •.•) I'd consider buying low ┳┻|⊂ノ on Yordano Ventura ┻┳| Actually would like that explored myself. Love see Price and Papi get in his head. More like Pedro, Ortiz and Hanley. Its a Dominican thing. That's why Cueto wanted to come here.
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Jun 12, 2016 8:31:03 GMT -5
The examples constantly cited here are Taijuan Walker and Kevin Gausman. The former was a consensus top 10 prospect in the game, the latter a top 20 prospect. Rodriguez topped out at 59th by BA. Last season Rodriguez started 21 games and had a 3.92FIP, and by comparison last year Walker started 29 games with a 4.07FIP (I'm not even counting the very good FIP numbers he had in his cups of coffee the two years prior, frankly because I'm not smart enough to isolate out his 3 appearances from the bullpen). Last year's Taijuan Walker would probably have cost more than what we'd expect for Eduardo Rodriguez right now, and the M's would have every right to expect that.
Keep in mind, that doesn't mean in anyway I dislike the idea - I love it (players who fit this bill this year include Gausman himself*, Carlos Rodon, and Archie Bradley, just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others). We just have to understand what other team's would rightly look for to move these type of players. However, if we could find a way to acquire that type of player at a discount (again, Dave Stewart), I'd absolutely love it.
I love the idea of looking into James Paxton as a "buy low" candidate based on his injury history. However there is a ton of difference (in my mind three distinct tiers) from what it would cost to acquire, based on prospect pedigree and success in MLB, Taijuan Walker at age 22 (last year), Eduardo Rodriguez at age 23 (this year) and James Paxton at age 27 (also this year). Guys I'd put in Paxton's comparison are more like Drew Pomeranz, and Jimmy Nelson - though with the scarcity of starting pitching, they'd probably cost more than Paxton.
*There is pretty much no realitic scenario where this year the O's and Red Sox would complete a trade with Gausman going to Boston and lets just say Swihart going to Baltimore, so long as we're both in contention for the division title. Just saying that in a vacuum, that trade makes a ton of sense for both teams.
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