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Post by manfred on May 14, 2017 16:20:32 GMT -5
Without speculating, I am worried. He's looked worse and worse with each start. And where did the cut fastball go? I don't see how a guy can be a two-pitch starter when one is not a 100-mph fastball or he doesn't have Satchel Paige's command.
If this is just discomfort on a cold, damp day, I'd still prefer Pom as reliever so his fb can play up a bit. Better an inning or two 3-4 times a week than 4.2 every 5 days.
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Post by telson13 on May 14, 2017 17:01:25 GMT -5
Without speculating, I am worried. He's looked worse and worse with each start. And where did the cut fastball go? I don't see how a guy can be a two-pitch starter when one is not a 100-mph fastball or he doesn't have Satchel Paige's command. If this is just discomfort on a cold, damp day, I'd still prefer Pom as reliever so his fb can play up a bit. Better an inning or two 3-4 times a week than 4.2 every 5 days. I get the sense that he dropped the cutter because of the forearm/flexor issue.
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Post by dnfl333 on May 14, 2017 17:10:39 GMT -5
Thanks Dave
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Post by manfred on May 14, 2017 17:20:19 GMT -5
Without speculating, I am worried. He's looked worse and worse with each start. And where did the cut fastball go? I don't see how a guy can be a two-pitch starter when one is not a 100-mph fastball or he doesn't have Satchel Paige's command. If this is just discomfort on a cold, damp day, I'd still prefer Pom as reliever so his fb can play up a bit. Better an inning or two 3-4 times a week than 4.2 every 5 days. I get the sense that he dropped the cutter because of the forearm/flexor issue. I guess I was wondering this, but I'd already said I wasn't going to speculate. So I was trapped 😔! Seriously, I worry he's been fighting discomfort and avoiding the added strain. It's a bummer.
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Post by grandsalami on May 14, 2017 18:09:56 GMT -5
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Post by soxfansince67 on May 14, 2017 21:46:21 GMT -5
We traded for (as we later found out but didn't challenge) damaged goods...that seem to be continually damaged (yet again today). Nibbler, throws a ton of pitches, no real "out" strategy. I thought it was a mistake getting him last year and nothing since the trade has changed my mind.
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Post by jimed14 on May 16, 2017 6:29:46 GMT -5
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 16, 2017 7:28:13 GMT -5
"We know the ligament is torn or partially torn, and nothing has changed about it." Edit- The one time the Sox can tell the truth about a injury and still be hiding something...
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Post by patford on Jun 7, 2017 9:13:08 GMT -5
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 7, 2017 9:20:47 GMT -5
They look worse than I expected, actually. That's a ton of talent.
Like the Jose Almonte thing. "They have a ton of these guys kicking around." That's a weasel-ish rhetorical nuance to try to knock down Almonte's accomplishments and development - he's been good, so admit that. Almonte, Logan Allen, Carlos Asuaje are all examples of secondary pieces who have improved their standing, and really putting a microscope on Dombrowski's terrible habit of being willing to include anyone who isn't a top prospect as a secondary piece. The organizational depth is bad because of this sort of stuff.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 7, 2017 9:33:23 GMT -5
Yeah a lot of that is just inaccurate. Calls Rijo a SS (he's a 2B), says Edwin Escobar was lost in Rule 5 (he was DFA and claimed on waivers), says the Twins "didn't re-sign" Pat Light (he was traded, and for that matter there was no real opportunity to "not re-sign" him, although I guess maybe they could've non-tendered him for some insane reason), etc. It's also not a very nuanced look at each player - just kind of picks a stat and makes some kind of conclusion on each guy.
I keep saying this, but doing something like this is an idea I've had on the back burner for the podcast and/or the news page for a while now. Maybe once we get past the draft and J2.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jun 7, 2017 9:35:43 GMT -5
With Allen, the only reason he wasn't a "top" prospect is simple: he'd barely been in the system up to that point. Nonetheless, this site was already touting the kid for his pitch mix and the way he used it. I agree that Dombrowski seems much too willing to keep throwing extra pieces into a trade. I'm sure that's not lost on the GMs who negotiate with the guy.
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Post by patford on Jun 7, 2017 9:41:12 GMT -5
Isn't it true that the Sox have a number of guys in A ball who are comparable to Allen and particularly to Almonte? I mean as far a good stuff but lacking command or even control? As to Allen. Is he maybe getting a lot of credit for his frame? The "he looks like a starting pitcher thing." I recall the old Sox Prospects scouting reports on him saying he lacked a put away pitch which could be a problem at higher levels. Don't the Sox have a number of guys like that? Don't most teams. With Almonte it looks to me like the Sox have a half dozen relievers at various levels who throw hard and lack command and control?
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 7, 2017 9:42:10 GMT -5
Yeah a lot of that is just inaccurate. Calls Rijo a SS (he's a 2B), says Edwin Escobar was lost in Rule 5 (he was DFA and claimed on waivers), says the Twins "didn't re-sign" Pat Light (he was traded, and for that matter there was no real opportunity to "not re-sign" him, although I guess maybe they could've non-tendered him for some insane reason), etc. It's also not a very nuanced look at each player - just kind of picks a stat and makes some kind of conclusion on each guy.I keep saying this, but doing something like this is an idea I've had on the back burner for the podcast and/or the news page for a while now. Maybe once we get past the draft and J2. Yeah - like quoting Dubon's slugging percentage. Why would you measure Mauricio Dubon by slugging percentage? Isn't it true that the Sox have a number of guys in A ball who are comparable to Allen and particularly to Almonte? I mean as far a good stuff but lacking command or even control? As to Allen. Is he maybe getting a lot of credit for his frame? The "he looks like a starting pitcher thing." I recall the old Sox Prospects scouting reports on him saying he lacked a put away pitch which could be a problem at higher levels. Don't the Sox have a number of guys like that? Don't most teams. With Almonte it looks to me like the Sox have a half dozen relievers at various levels who throw hard and lack command and control? Having a similar player or players is not a reason to trade one for insufficient value. "We already have Roniel Raudes so we'll throw in Jose Almonte" would be pretty dumb. Allen is getting credit for having a 1.75 ERA and 30.9 K% in the Midwest League as a 20-year-old.
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Post by patford on Jun 7, 2017 9:45:18 GMT -5
Yeah a lot of that is just inaccurate. Calls Rijo a SS (he's a 2B), says Edwin Escobar was lost in Rule 5 (he was DFA and claimed on waivers), says the Twins "didn't re-sign" Pat Light (he was traded, and for that matter there was no real opportunity to "not re-sign" him, although I guess maybe they could've non-tendered him for some insane reason), etc. It's also not a very nuanced look at each player - just kind of picks a stat and makes some kind of conclusion on each guy. I keep saying this, but doing something like this is an idea I've had on the back burner for the podcast and/or the news page for a while now. Maybe once we get past the draft and J2. That would be great. The person at the other forum was writing a forum post not an article so I am not all that concerned with the errors as I would be with an article.
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Post by patford on Jun 7, 2017 9:49:18 GMT -5
Allen is getting credit for having a 1.75 ERA and 30.9 K% in the Midwest League as a 20-year-old. Has he developed a "put away pitch" which will work at higher levels? Not trying to be argumentative but that's something I see in a lot of scouting reports and in most cases unless a guy has incredible command that is a red flag.
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 7, 2017 9:54:26 GMT -5
Reports are that his change-up has taken a big step forward. At the very least I'd be fairly comfortable projecting him as a major league reliever at this point with a real chance to stick as a starter, which is a lot for the #4 guy in a trade. If he were still in the organization I'd have him ahead of Anderson and Shawaryn for sure and possibly ahead of Lakins.
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Post by jmei on Jun 7, 2017 9:55:14 GMT -5
Allen is getting credit for having a 1.75 ERA and 30.9 K% in the Midwest League as a 20-year-old. Has he developed a "put away pitch" which will work at higher levels? Not trying to be argumentative but that's something I see in a lot of scouting reports and in most cases unless a guy has incredible command that is a red flag. In the last scouting report I see for Allen on SoxProspects, Chaz put a 50 future grade on his curveball and changeup. Having an above-average fastball and two average secondaries will work just fine at higher levels. If he was still in the system, I suspect Allen would be a strong contender for the number four prospect in the system. He's legit.
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Post by patford on Jun 7, 2017 10:11:41 GMT -5
Thanks guys. I guess we will eventually see how it pans out. To me Allen sounds at best like Brian Johnson. I do understand that the more ping-pong balls in the hopper the better the chance one of them will win the lottery. But hey, how about that Bryan Mata? If he keeps this up he will be in the top four. Very small sample size on Mata but would anyone trade him to get Allen back? I mean anyone besides Dombrowski (just kidding).
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Post by ramireja on Jun 7, 2017 11:03:44 GMT -5
Wow, that article described Josh Tobias as having "3rd base coach upside." Where does that rank on the 2-8 scale?
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Post by bosox81 on Jun 7, 2017 13:06:05 GMT -5
Unbelievable. Including Shaw and Coca that's 19 players traded away in just a little over a year. It's almost as if DD luckily ran into a pile of money he didn't earn and went to an wild shopping spree.
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Post by jackiebradleyjrjr on Jun 7, 2017 13:47:41 GMT -5
Unbelievable. Including Shaw and Coca that's 19 players traded away in just a little over a year. It's almost as if DD luckily ran into a pile of money he didn't earn and went to an wild shopping spree. He's like Oprah. A prospect for you! A prospect for you! Everyone gets a red sox prospect!
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Post by threeifbaerga on Jun 7, 2017 17:47:56 GMT -5
Unbelievable. Including Shaw and Coca that's 19 players traded away in just a little over a year. It's almost as if DD luckily ran into a pile of money he didn't earn and went to an wild shopping spree. If Coca is what they gave up for 0.0 innings of Thornburg, imagine what they'd have to give up if he'd thrown a pitch.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 7, 2017 18:00:55 GMT -5
Unbelievable. Including Shaw and Coca that's 19 players traded away in just a little over a year. It's almost as if DD luckily ran into a pile of money he didn't earn and went to an wild shopping spree. If Coca is what they gave up for 0.0 innings of Thornburg, imagine what they'd have to give up if he'd thrown a pitch. I certainly don't want this to sound like I'm singling out threeifbaerga, because I'm definitely not. But his post above is kind of the most straightforward version of a sentiment I've seen around these forums and all over Twitter. I just ask: where is this sentiment coming from that sounds like Thornburg is never going to throw a pitch for the Red Sox? We all know he's under team control through 2019, right? This is a thought separate and apart from one's opinion of whether or not it's a good trade, but I've just seen so much of "they traded these guys for a guy who isn't even pitching" like he suffered some injury that's going to keep him out until 2020 and he's never going to come back, and I find it confusing. Never mind the fact that this was an injury that happened after the trade, so it's not like the trade was made knowing he wasn't likely to pitch or something. I say this as someone who will readily admit it looks like Travis Shaw alone could be more valuable over those three seasons, never mind his full team control, than Thornburg will be. Then you add Dubon, Pennington, and Coca as a bonus. But I guess I'd just expect to see more of "well hopefully he salvages some value over the next couple years" than the "they traded for a guy who isn't pitching" I've seen everywhere. Just confuses me a bit is all.
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Post by threeifbaerga on Jun 7, 2017 20:14:18 GMT -5
Just confuses me a bit is all. Understandable, this is just coming from my understanding of "+ PTBNL" trades where that PTBNL is based off of the value received by the team of the "A Player" in the deal. Could come down to my naivety and misunderstanding of these things. The completely unstated point I meant to get at was Dombrowski's willingness to pay the full cost in trades. Less to do with "he hasn't given them anything" and more to do with "why are they still paying for him?" As a Nets fan I look at it like I do the Pierce/KG trade. They're still paying for players who haven't played for them for years. That's bad business.
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