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7/28-7/31 Red Sox @ Angels Series Thread
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 29, 2016 1:20:15 GMT -5
So successful managers have their sucess disregarded as outliers because they don't fit your arguments, got it. There's not a single goal post that won't be moved when blaming anything on Farrell, right? God forbid we actually criticize the players or the team. If they lose it's always the manager's fault, even when it really isn't. Some losses this year have been on Farrell. Tonight wasn't one of them.
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Post by ikonos on Jul 29, 2016 1:39:28 GMT -5
So successful managers have their sucess disregarded as outliers because they don't fit your arguments, got it. There's not a single goal post that won't be moved when blaming anything on Farrell, right? I clearly indicated why I consider it an outlier. If the teams were above avg in the remaining years, then you can consider 2013 is not an outlier. Since they were below average (last in the division) in other years, it has to be considered an outlier.
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Post by bosox81 on Jul 29, 2016 5:26:35 GMT -5
Can't blame Farrell for this. The team lost because Hanley choked and the offense couldn't score more than one run vs. Jered effing Weaver.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Jul 29, 2016 5:29:58 GMT -5
Can't blame Farrell for this. The team lost because Hanley choked and the offense couldn't score more than one run vs. Jered effing Weaver. Really? Hanley looks like a good candidate for needing a late inning defensive replacement. And he has looked like that for a while.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 29, 2016 6:03:54 GMT -5
Can't blame Farrell for this. The team lost because Hanley choked and the offense couldn't score more than one run vs. Jered effing Weaver. Really? Hanley looks like a good candidate for needing a late inning defensive replacement. And he has looked like that for a while. I agree with Hanley being defensed for in late innings. The problem is that their only choice is to put Hill in at 3b and move Shaw over to 1b. I guess that's an improvement, but not by much. It's not like Farrell has Mientkiewicz or JT Snow to play late inning defense. Maybe that could be something really cheap that Dombrowski could identify and add to the roster. You're not blaming Farrell for the Red Sox offense inability to hit Cy Young Weaver, are you? That was a big factor, too, in the loss.
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Post by templeusox on Jul 29, 2016 6:17:14 GMT -5
Feel free to score more than one run against Jered Weaver.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Jul 29, 2016 6:42:38 GMT -5
They just keep finding ways to lose. This is one serious underachieving team. I'm approaching the point where I really don't believe in them. This team just seems to blink when the game is at its most important point - over and over again. If they're down 1 with the bases loaded and no outs, they won't score. If they need a key out or a key defensive play, the botch it. You watch this team and you can't help but think to yourself that they lack balls. It's an irrational thought, but this team should be so much better than they are. Winning teams find ways to win this game. The Red Sox certainly have the talent to win a lot of ballgames, but they just find ways to lose and sooner or later, as these winnable games turned losses pile up, they could find themselves stuck in a 1 game playoff they shouldn't have had to be in, or worse, stuck on the outside in watching everybody else. The Red Sox should be several games up on Baltimore and Toronto by now. They are such a damn aggravating team. They should be so much better than this! As a secondary rooting interest to the Red Sox, I follow the local hockey team, the Washington Capitals. And I hear fans saying the same thing about them over and over and over and over and over again: They're really talented, but they just underachieve. Their owner is more realistic. He says at the end of the day, you are what your record says you are. Sometimes you "underachieve" because the opponents are professionals too, they're trying their best to win, and sometimes they succeed, because they are better than we are, either overall or on that particular day. We tend to agonize over missed opportunities for our side and forget about the times opponents had opportunities and missed them. We tend to agonize over the mistakes we've made and forget about the mistakes opponents have made that have given us things. So what are the Sox this year? On the offensive side, this team looked to be dangerous, especially if Papi could keep it going through his last season. So what has happened? Papi has had an historic season, the others have pretty much come through as expected or maybe a bit better. We've been pretty healthy this season except for LF, and we've been different at catcher than we might have expected, but Leon has really picked up the slack the last month. On the pitching side, of the bullpen we put together for this season we've lost the entire back 4 to injury at this point. Our hired ace for the rotation has been meh, balanced of by the Wright stuff. (When you think about it, if Price had produced Wright's results so far and Wright had produced Price's, wouldn't that have been almost precisely what we would have expected?) ERod was injured and never really recovered, Kelly looks like a reliever, and Buchholz collapsed. Get out of the trees for a moment, step back and look at the forest. Knowing what we know about what has happened, what would be a reasonable expectation for the team given the circumstances that have occurred this season? Good team, maybe on the fringes of the playoffs, but not really a championship contender? Sounds about right -- and at this point, that is exactly what they are. Going forward, the pitching holes are probably far too wide-ranging to try to fix and make the team a true World Series threat this season, so as I've said before, I wouldn't go to heroic lengths to try to fix them by trading away the farm. Hold on to the most promising potential pieces of the future, let this team play out as it is. As for the manager, fire him or not, whatever the organization wishes. I don't think it will make a season-changing difference one way or the other.
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Jul 29, 2016 7:35:58 GMT -5
Can't blame Farrell for this. The team lost because Hanley choked and the offense couldn't score more than one run vs. Jered effing Weaver. I think blaming Farrell every time is lame, but at the same time, losing these close games has become a legitimate pattern at this point.
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Post by James Dunne on Jul 29, 2016 7:50:17 GMT -5
Since the start of the Minnesota series, the Red Sox have outscored their opponents 45-41 and are 2-6.
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Post by philarhody on Jul 29, 2016 7:56:04 GMT -5
The Red Sox scored one run off Jered Weaver.
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Post by bluechip on Jul 29, 2016 7:58:06 GMT -5
Since June 3rd, the Red Sox are 3 and 8 in David Prices starts.
During that same period, the Red Sox are 2 and 4 when Price pitches 8 innings.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 29, 2016 8:11:10 GMT -5
They just keep finding ways to lose. This is one serious underachieving team. I'm approaching the point where I really don't believe in them. This team just seems to blink when the game is at its most important point - over and over again. If they're down 1 with the bases loaded and no outs, they won't score. If they need a key out or a key defensive play, the botch it. You watch this team and you can't help but think to yourself that they lack balls. It's an irrational thought, but this team should be so much better than they are. Winning teams find ways to win this game. The Red Sox certainly have the talent to win a lot of ballgames, but they just find ways to lose and sooner or later, as these winnable games turned losses pile up, they could find themselves stuck in a 1 game playoff they shouldn't have had to be in, or worse, stuck on the outside in watching everybody else. The Red Sox should be several games up on Baltimore and Toronto by now. They are such a damn aggravating team. They should be so much better than this! As a secondary rooting interest to the Red Sox, I follow the local hockey team, the Washington Capitals. And I hear fans saying the same thing about them over and over and over and over and over again: They're really talented, but they just underachieve. Their owner is more realistic. He says at the end of the day, you are what your record says you are. Sometimes you "underachieve" because the opponents are professionals too, they're trying their best to win, and sometimes they succeed, because they are better than we are, either overall or on that particular day. We tend to agonize over missed opportunities for our side and forget about the times opponents had opportunities and missed them. We tend to agonize over the mistakes we've made and forget about the mistakes opponents have made that have given us things. So what are the Sox this year? On the offensive side, this team looked to be dangerous, especially if Papi could keep it going through his last season. So what has happened? Papi has had an historic season, the others have pretty much come through as expected or maybe a bit better. We've been pretty healthy this season except for LF, and we've been different at catcher than we might have expected, but Leon has really picked up the slack the last month. On the pitching side, of the bullpen we put together for this season we've lost the entire back 4 to injury at this point. Our hired ace for the rotation has been meh, balanced of by the Wright stuff. (When you think about it, if Price had produced Wright's results so far and Wright had produced Price's, wouldn't that have been almost precisely what we would have expected?) ERod was injured and never really recovered, Kelly looks like a reliever, and Buchholz collapsed. Get out of the trees for a moment, step back and look at the forest. Knowing what we know about what has happened, what would be a reasonable expectation for the team given the circumstances that have occurred this season? Good team, maybe on the fringes of the playoffs, but not really a championship contender? Sounds about right -- and at this point, that is exactly what they are. Going forward, the pitching holes are probably far too wide-ranging to try to fix and make the team a true World Series threat this season, so as I've said before, I wouldn't go to heroic lengths to try to fix them by trading away the farm. Hold on to the most promising potential pieces of the future, let this team play out as it is. As for the manager, fire him or not, whatever the organization wishes. I don't think it will make a season-changing difference one way or the other. Well said. The pitching has been generally horrible this season, the hitting great although it hasn't exactly been timely hitting. The Red Sox tend to score in bunches, so that means that their pythagorean indicators think the Sox should be a lot better than they are. As bad as their pitching is, I can't help but feel that a starting staff of Price/Wright/Porcello/Pomeranz/E-Rod should be pretty good. The bullpen is a bit of mess now, but a bullpen fronted by Kimbrel/Ziegler/Tazawa/Barnes should be pretty good. They need a little more depth, particularly from the left side where Ross and Layne have been generally mediocre, but it still should be a decent enough bullpen to allow the Red Sox a good chance to win close games, which they haven't been doing. I wouldn't put anything else major into the team other than perhaps another bullpen arm (not an expensive closer type) and some additional bench help. The players have to play better. It's that simple. I think this team should be a 95 - 100 win team. Instead they'll wind up around 87 -92 wins, and if they're on the lower end of that they may miss the playoffs altogether.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 29, 2016 8:39:28 GMT -5
So successful managers have their sucess disregarded as outliers because they don't fit your arguments, got it. There's not a single goal post that won't be moved when blaming anything on Farrell, right? God forbid we actually criticize the players or the team. If they lose it's always the manager's fault, even when it really isn't. Some losses this year have been on Farrell. Tonight wasn't one of them. God forbid we get rid of a terrible manager, whether that loss was his fault or not. This isn't just one game. It's 2.5 seasons.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 29, 2016 10:22:24 GMT -5
God forbid we actually criticize the players or the team. If they lose it's always the manager's fault, even when it really isn't. Some losses this year have been on Farrell. Tonight wasn't one of them. God forbid we get rid of a terrible manager, whether that loss was his fault or not. This isn't just one game. It's 2.5 seasons. I'm not against getting rid of Farrell - he's not a good manager. I'm against the knee-jerk reaction that every loss the Red Sox take is strictly because of Farrell. As in if the Red Sox win, the players are great. If the Red Sox lose it's Farrell's fault. Sometimes the players (it's a shocker, I know) are actually responsible for losing.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Jul 29, 2016 10:54:10 GMT -5
What I've noticed this season is that the Sox are great at "tack on" runs. If they're up 3-0 or 4-1, they'll score another 4 or 5 runs to put it away. But in the 1-0 or 2-1 games, they are tightening up and cannot string anything together. Sink or swim, I believe a managerial change has to be made. Keep the team as it is.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Jul 29, 2016 11:00:42 GMT -5
God forbid we get rid of a terrible manager, whether that loss was his fault or not. This isn't just one game. It's 2.5 seasons. I'm not against getting rid of Farrell - he's not a good manager. I'm against the knee-jerk reaction that every loss the Red Sox take is strictly because of Farrell. As in if the Red Sox win, the players are great. If the Red Sox lose it's Farrell's fault. Sometimes the players (it's a shocker, I know) are actually responsible for losing. I was at the game, along with thousands of Sox fans. The consensus among fans in my area was that Price was pretty awesome, Ace-like, but the Angels were hitting them where they ain't, while the Sox did the exact opposite. Everyone within my hearing range was surprised and perturbed that Price, with a marginal pitch count, and a beat up bullpen on a merciless road trip, didn't come out for the 9th for a complete game shutout. Moans and comments like wtf and we're screwed quietly filled the air. We had no benefit of TV or radio comments but had to assume, despite his looking strong in the 8th from where we sat, that he was hurt or had tired. Can someone please tell me why JF didn't let Price finish the job?
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Post by telluricrook on Jul 29, 2016 11:08:15 GMT -5
I think Leon should have taken his foot off of the plate and make the catch and just accepted the 1-1 tie at that point. There was a good chance for another double play ball to take it to extra innings.
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Post by James Dunne on Jul 29, 2016 11:13:51 GMT -5
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Post by telluricrook on Jul 29, 2016 11:14:00 GMT -5
I'm not against getting rid of Farrell - he's not a good manager. I'm against the knee-jerk reaction that every loss the Red Sox take is strictly because of Farrell. As in if the Red Sox win, the players are great. If the Red Sox lose it's Farrell's fault. Sometimes the players (it's a shocker, I know) are actually responsible for losing. I was at the game, along with thousands of Sox fans. The consensus among fans in my area was that Price was pretty awesome, Ace-like, but the Angels were hitting them where they ain't, while the Sox did the exact opposite. Everyone within my hearing range was surprised and perturbed that Price, with a marginal pitch count, and a beat up bullpen on a merciless road trip, didn't come out for the 9th for a complete game shutout. Moans and comments like wtf and we're screwed quietly filled the air. We had no benefit of TV or radio comments but had to assume, despite his looking strong in the 8th from where we sat, that he was hurt or had tired. Can someone please tell me why JF didn't let Price finish the job? I guess that if JF left Price in and they lost JF would be to blame, Especially due to the high pitch count. If the closer blows it he is to blame.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jul 29, 2016 11:19:13 GMT -5
After seeing the play again...that loss is pretty squarely on Hanley's shoulders. We don't know if Ziegler gets out of it if there aren't 2 turned, but that was a routine play. I know Ziegler has culpability up to that point, but that's a play a little leaguer can make.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jul 29, 2016 11:47:49 GMT -5
Tough game last night. I was watching at the end after having stepped away for a while, and Price was really on his game. Lots of bad luck on the hitting side early on, which does happen. The final play was cringe-worthy. For me, the takeaway from this losing streak is that defense really does matter. At least three of the games saw a turnaround brought about by poor defensive play. While that's always a factor to some extent, it's really brought the team down over the last week or so. They're going to have to tighten it up.
Add: While Ziegler got himself into trouble, he also pitched well enough to get himself out of it, but with little margin for error. That error got them the loss.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jul 29, 2016 12:09:35 GMT -5
I clearly indicated why I consider it an outlier. If the teams were above avg in the remaining years, then you can consider 2013 is not an outlier. Since they were below average (last in the division) in other years, it has to be considered an outlier. Let's agree to disagree here, there's absolutely no way I think that 2013 was an outlier. 2013 was a job well done.
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Post by tjb21 on Jul 29, 2016 12:23:31 GMT -5
God forbid we actually criticize the players or the team. If they lose it's always the manager's fault, even when it really isn't. Some losses this year have been on Farrell. Tonight wasn't one of them. God forbid we get rid of a terrible manager, whether that loss was his fault or not. This isn't just one game. It's 2.5 seasons. I'm with you. Not every loss is directly his fault but he stinks. Also, the offensive production was clearly not good enough against that pitcher last night. Tough game.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Jul 29, 2016 12:57:35 GMT -5
Really? Hanley looks like a good candidate for needing a late inning defensive replacement. And he has looked like that for a while. I agree with Hanley being defensed for in late innings. The problem is that their only choice is to put Hill in at 3b and move Shaw over to 1b. I guess that's an improvement, but not by much. It's not like Farrell has Mientkiewicz or JT Snow to play late inning defense. Maybe that could be something really cheap that Dombrowski could identify and add to the roster. You're not blaming Farrell for the Red Sox offense inability to hit Cy Young Weaver, are you? That was a big factor, too, in the loss. 1. I believe that Hill & Shaw is a better defense than Hanley & Shaw. Better at 2 positions.
2. Shaw has to consider following the runner to the plate and backup the catcher. nobody was there, not Ziegler. At least that is the Little League play. or What would Jeter do?
As a former first baseman, I gotta say .... it would be tough to overthrow the catcher like that. more likely to put it in the dirt.
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ianrs
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Post by ianrs on Jul 29, 2016 13:09:45 GMT -5
sorry to disagree, but the reliever just lost the game...and plenty of others this season. Overinflated...I'll agree....overrated....I don't agree. I agree. I'm tired of hearing how easily interchangeable they all are. It's not true. Some are simply better. It's kind of like how you hear the there's no such thing as clutch yet you know there's nobody you'd rather have up than Papi in a big situation because over the years he's been as clutch as anybody. On the flip side, if you are a Yankees fan, you've watched Mariano Rivera for many years and you knew that he had major impact on the team. The Yankees won a lot of games that if they had another closer they wouldn't have won. It matters. Jerrygarciaparra - no need to apologize for disagreement, I welcome opposing views. That's what makes this board so great. I want to clarify that I wasn't arguing that relievers are interchangable. Instead, I was arguing that relievers matter much less than they are being given credit for generally. Regardless of whether they are scrubs or stars. They contribute the least amount of innings to a team, simply by definition. Starting pitchers and position players, and often even bench players, are much more important to the success of a team. By definition it is also tougher to predict their future performance, due to a small sample size. Of course, give me the Zieglers of the world over the Hembrees every time. But when it comes to team building, focus on other parts of the team first and foremost.
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