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Post by jimed14 on Sept 21, 2016 12:21:36 GMT -5
Hanigan will be the backup. Vazquez should be the backup and this is a no-brainer.
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Canseco
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Post by Canseco on Sept 21, 2016 12:29:44 GMT -5
Catchers (2): Leon Vazquez
Infield (7): Pedroia Bogaerts Ortiz Ramirez Hill Holt Shaw
OF (4): Benintendi Bradley Betts Young
Rotation (4): Price Porcello Rodriguez Wright/Buchholz
Bullpen (8): Kimbrel Ziegler Uehara Ross Kelly Pomeranz Scott Buchholz/Wright
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Post by amfox1 on Sept 21, 2016 12:37:46 GMT -5
Who will be the back up Catcher? Hannigan, Vazquez or Holaday? Who should be the back up Catcher? Hannigan, Vazquez or Holaday Hanigan, Hanigan Don't see any other answer to this. Leon is the starter. He is a switch-hitter and does not need a defensive replacement. Holaday/Hanigan have essentially split time catching for Pomeranz, who likely doesn't have a starting spot in the playoff rotation. Therefore, I want to keep a guy with the "best" bat for the World Series. Believe it or not, that's Hanigan. CVaz's last full game in the majors was July 2. He's not going to be on the playoff roster.
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Post by dmaineah on Sept 21, 2016 12:46:35 GMT -5
Catchers(2): Leon Hanigan will be / Vazquez should be
Infield (6): Pedroia Bogaerts Ortiz Ramirez Holt Shaw
OF (4): Benintendi Bradley Betts Young
Rotation (4): Porcello Price Buchholz Rodriguez
Bullpen (9): Kimbrel Uehara Ziegler Kelly Barnes Ross Scott Hembree Tazawa
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Post by amfox1 on Sept 21, 2016 12:56:25 GMT -5
So jimed/dmaineah, I'm interested in why you think CVaz should be the backup catcher for this postseason over Hanigan. What has he shown you this year that leads you to believe that he would be the best choice to win in the playoffs this year? (clearly, CVaz should have the inside track on being on the 25-man roster next spring, as neither Hanigan or Holaday will likely be in the organization next spring)
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 21, 2016 13:03:51 GMT -5
So jimed/dmaineah, I'm interested in why you think CVaz should be the backup catcher for this postseason over Hanigan. What has he shown you this year that leads you to believe that he would be the best choice to win in the playoffs this year? (clearly, CVaz should have the inside track on being on the 25-man roster next spring, as neither Hanigan or Holaday will likely be in the organization next spring)Hanigan has -0.5 fWAR. Holaday has -0.2 fWAR for the Red Sox. They are each at 18 and 14 wRC+. Vazquez is better defensively than both of them and hits better too. It's not a very high bar to reach. Thankfully, all 4 are at least above average defensively so it's probably not a huge deal. I wish I knew why he's not getting any games since they called him up. We heard he's in the doghouse, but nothing since then. Every time Leon is not playing in September, they should use all of the other 3 catchers if the games are close.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Sept 21, 2016 13:18:15 GMT -5
So jimed/dmaineah, I'm interested in why you think CVaz should be the backup catcher for this postseason over Hanigan. What has he shown you this year that leads you to believe that he would be the best choice to win in the playoffs this year? (clearly, CVaz should have the inside track on being on the 25-man roster next spring, as neither Hanigan or Holaday will likely be in the organization next spring)Hanigan has -0.5 fWAR. Holaday has -0.2 fWAR for the Red Sox. They are each at 18 and 14 wRC+. Vazquez is better defensively than both of them and hits better too. It's not a very high bar to reach. Thankfully, all 4 are at least above average defensively so it's probably not a huge deal. I wish I knew why he's not getting any games since they called him up. We heard he's in the doghouse, but nothing since then. Every time Leon is not playing in September, they should use all of the other 3 catchers if the games are close.
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Post by dmaineah on Sept 21, 2016 13:28:38 GMT -5
Vazquez is better defensively & a better runner on the Bases if needed
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Post by gerry on Sept 21, 2016 13:29:04 GMT -5
There must be some complicated machinations going between the FO, on field coaches, players. Vaz seemed to take his banishment well, performed well, hit well, and rehabbed nicely from TJ. He shows no residual issues from the surgery. He was good enough to be named our starting catcher before injury. I can't believe JF, even at his most stubborn, would still be punishing him for the time he overrode the pitch call from the dugout. That would be counterproductive in the extreme. Something is going on. This is one of the most puzzling aspects of September.
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Post by dmaineah on Sept 21, 2016 13:31:55 GMT -5
So jimed/dmaineah, I'm interested in why you think CVaz should be the backup catcher for this postseason over Hanigan. What has he shown you this year that leads you to believe that he would be the best choice to win in the playoffs this year? (clearly, CVaz should have the inside track on being on the 25-man roster next spring, as neither Hanigan or Holaday will likely be in the organization next spring)Plus, most importantly, he (& Leon) will be out of Options
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Post by amfox1 on Sept 21, 2016 15:30:19 GMT -5
Even stipulating that CVaz is better defensively and runs better than Hanigan and Holaday, that shouldn't make a difference for this year's playoffs. Unless he gets hurt, Leon is not coming out of any games for defensive purposes or for a pinch runner. Of course, if the Red Sox make it to the World Series, Leon may be double switched out during the 2-3 games in the NL park.
I would not concede that Vazquez is a better hitter than Hanigan right now.
I do think that player dynamics are important this time of year and, as a result, the clubhouse is likely more comfortable with the veteran Hanigan than the young Vazquez (without knowledge of any specifics).
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 21, 2016 16:08:31 GMT -5
Even stipulating that CVaz is better defensively and runs better than Hanigan and Holaday, that shouldn't make a difference for this year's playoffs. Unless he gets hurt, Leon is not coming out of any games for defensive purposes or for a pinch runner. Of course, if the Red Sox make it to the World Series, Leon may be double switched out during the 2-3 games in the NL park. I would not concede that Vazquez is a better hitter than Hanigan right now. I do think that player dynamics are important this time of year and, as a result, the clubhouse is likely more comfortable with the veteran Hanigan than the young Vazquez (without knowledge of any specifics). I think Joe Kelly would be a better hitter than Hanigan right now. Maybe a slight exaggeration. Hanigan hasn't played much at all in the 2nd half. He has 30 PAs. Hitting .107/.167/.250 and a 33% k-rate in that time. Though he is rocking a .143 ISO due to 2 of his 3 hits being a HR and a 2B. My bigger concern and it really isn't a huge deal is that Vazquez should be getting some playing time in September. Since none of the 3 backup catchers will hit much, they should be pinch hitting for them often in any close game at any point in a possible big inning or once the starting pitcher is out of the game. We have 4 catchers and should be using all of them. Again, not a huge deal. I still think Vazquez is the best backup though. When catchers can't hit, their defense trumps all. Even when they can hit. A side point, I think Leon is catching a few too many games recently.
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Post by amfox1 on Sept 21, 2016 16:48:13 GMT -5
A side point, I think Leon is catching a few too many games recently. It's a fair point, and I suspect that he will be rested a bit during the last week, once they clinch. The playoff schedule helps all starting catchers, in terms of travel/rest days, so I expect he'll be fine for the playoffs.
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Post by bosox81 on Sept 21, 2016 17:15:58 GMT -5
Sigh. This conversation just made me miss Swihart.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 22, 2016 8:14:16 GMT -5
Given that Robbie Scott came in to face Chris Davis last night in the 9th instead of Abad, it looks like he's in the process of taking his playoff roster spot.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 22, 2016 9:18:37 GMT -5
Something I was wondering this morning. Looking at the 25th roster spot, what are they most likely to use?
- I can't see Marco Hernandez having much utility given the presence of Hill and Holt. - I find it unlikely that a 12th pitcher gets used given the number of off days (assume the 4 SP, Kimbrel, Uehara, Ziegler, Ross, Barnes, Pomeranz, plus one more)
So... what about a third catcher? Leon is 2 for his last 28 and perhaps starting to wear down in part, perhaps starting to regress to the mean in part. So that's probably the one spot in the lineup where you might want the flexibility to pinch hit and/or run (other than, maybe, pinch running for Ortiz late, but that's a whole other discussion), so having a third catcher gives you a lot more freedom to do that if, say, the crucial inning is going to be the 6th or something.
Not saying I think they'll do it or that I'm even sure it's the right move, but I wonder if the security of having both Hanigan and Holaday would be of more use than Hernandez. Not having Hernandez leaves you a little thin at shortstop, with Holt as the backup, but that's only an issue in an injury situation and I'm ok chancing it, frankly.
And what Fox said. Vazquez won't be a consideration for the playoff roster, and I think folks are still on board this "he's a defensive prodigy" thing that hasn't necessarily been the case for a while now.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 22, 2016 9:54:47 GMT -5
And what Fox said. Vazquez won't be a consideration for the playoff roster, and I think folks are still on board this "he's a defensive prodigy" thing that hasn't necessarily been the case for a while now. That is quite different than "he's better than Hanigan". I'm still puzzled by this. I haven't seen him play since June so has he regressed even more? Did he pout and stop working in AAA? The bar for being better than Holaday and Hanigan is not some kind of crazy leap. Neither of those two have even been replacement level for the Red Sox this season.
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Post by jmei on Sept 22, 2016 11:34:22 GMT -5
The bar for being better than Holaday and Hanigan is not some kind of crazy leap. Neither of those two have even been replacement level for the Red Sox this season. Hanigan has all of 110 PAs for the Red Sox this year, and Holaday has all of 31 PAs for the Red Sox this year-- both tiny samples. I don't know that you can say that Vazquez is clearly a better hitter than Hanigan or Holaday. Here is what the projections say: Steamer:Hanigan: 65 wRC+ Holaday: 65 Vazquez: 75 ZiPS:Hanigan: 61 Holaday: 69 Vazquez: 58
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Post by amfox1 on Sept 22, 2016 11:38:35 GMT -5
Not saying I think they'll do it or that I'm even sure it's the right move, but I wonder if the security of having both Hanigan and Holaday would be of more use than Hernandez. Not having Hernandez leaves you a little thin at shortstop, with Holt as the backup, but that's only an issue in an injury situation and I'm ok chancing it, frankly. I think Hernandez will be the designated late-inning pinch runner for Papi. I cannot see the Red Sox carrying three catchers in a 5 or 7 game series. No question that Leon is reverting back to form, but he will get a few days off in the next couple of weeks to recharge his batteries, especially given that the Red Sox will be a division champ. EDIT: possible usage for Leon to ease his workload until the playoffs 9/22 - Leon (Price) 9/23 - not Leon (Pomeranz) 9/24 - Leon (Porcello) 9/25 - not Leon (Rodriguez) 9/26 - off9/27 - not Leon (Buchholz) 9/28 - Leon (Price) 9/29 - not Leon (Porcello, Pomeranz skipped) 9/30 - Leon (Rodriguez) 10/1 - not Leon (Pomeranz or bullpen game) 10/2 - Leon (Buchholz) 10/3 - off10/4 - off10/5 - off10/6 - ALDS g1 (Price) 10/7 - ALDS g2 (Porcello) 10/8 - off10/9 - ALDS g3 (Rodriguez) 10/10 - ALDS g4 (Buchholz, if necessary) 10/11 - off10/12 - ALDS g5 (Price, if necessary)
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 22, 2016 11:45:58 GMT -5
The bar for being better than Holaday and Hanigan is not some kind of crazy leap. Neither of those two have even been replacement level for the Red Sox this season. Hanigan has all of 110 PAs for the Red Sox this year, and Holaday has all of 31 PAs for the Red Sox this year-- both tiny samples. I don't know that you can say that Vazquez is clearly a better hitter than Hanigan or Holaday. Here is what the projections say: Steamer:Hanigan: 65 wRC+ Holaday: 65 Vazquez: 75 ZiPS:Hanigan: 61 Holaday: 69 Vazquez: 58 So you also don't believe that Vazquez is the best defensive catcher of the 3? It is kind of amusing that Steamer has Leon lower than Vazquez.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 22, 2016 14:24:50 GMT -5
Hanigan has all of 110 PAs for the Red Sox this year, and Holaday has all of 31 PAs for the Red Sox this year-- both tiny samples. I don't know that you can say that Vazquez is clearly a better hitter than Hanigan or Holaday. Here is what the projections say: Steamer:Hanigan: 65 wRC+ Holaday: 65 Vazquez: 75 ZiPS:Hanigan: 61 Holaday: 69 Vazquez: 58 So you also don't believe that Vazquez is the best defensive catcher of the 3? It is kind of amusing that Steamer has Leon lower than Vazquez. I think it's negligible, at least, given the amount of playing time these guys are going to get. I'll let someone else get pitch framing numbers, but the three are close on SBA numbers this year in MLB. Vazquez 36 pct Hanigan 30 pct Holaday 38 pct
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 22, 2016 15:44:56 GMT -5
I would carry a extra pitcher and not Hernandez. Holt is plenty fast enough to pinch run late in games for a slow runner (Shaw, Ortiz, Leon).
This would allow Ruby Scott to get a spot in the bullpen if need be as a lefty specialist.
Also I'd go with Tazawa over Barnes but it will probably be Barnes because Farrell has stuck with him all year for some unknown reason.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Sept 22, 2016 15:45:42 GMT -5
Personally, for the playoffs, I'd prefer Hanigan. He somewhat reminds me of a David (.213) Ross in 2013. Just that extra veteran in the clubhouse aside from Pedey/Papi/Hanley. The few innings that will be required by your back-up catcher in the playoffs doesn't outweigh the clubhouse presence. You could also change between each series if need be.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 22, 2016 15:51:42 GMT -5
The backup catcher is pretty meaningless imo. It could be the bullpen catcher and it wouldn't matter.
The Sox are going to start Leon in every play-off game.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 22, 2016 15:56:42 GMT -5
Catchers(2): Leon Hanigan will be / Vazquez should be Infield (6): Pedroia Bogaerts Ortiz Ramirez Holt Shaw OF (4): Benintendi Bradley Betts Young Rotation (4): Porcello Price Buchholz Rodriguez Bullpen (9): Kimbrel Uehara Ziegler Kelly Barnes Ross Scott Hembree Tazawa This is probably the closest thing to the playoff roster but Holaday will probably be the backup catcher. That and Aaron Hill is in the playoff roster and one of Tazawa, Hembree, Barnes, or Kelly is out. Also Hembree shouldn't be discounted. I think the Sox are higher on him than even Joe Kelly. Remember this was the guy the Sox called up in August when they needed relief help, instead of Kelly. I really like Hembree and I think he deserves to be on the playoff roster.
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