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2016-2017 Red Sox Offseason (Non-Manager) Discussion
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 3, 2016 12:58:54 GMT -5
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Post by mjammz on Dec 3, 2016 13:28:57 GMT -5
Beltran has signed with Houston for 1 year 16 million.
Have to think DD and Red Sox were over-hyping their interest in Beltran if they weren't wiling to go 1/16.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 3, 2016 13:41:08 GMT -5
Houston actually now has a decent lineup. They've added McCann, Reddick and Beltran and all with short years.
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Post by larrycook on Dec 3, 2016 13:52:17 GMT -5
Beltran has signed with Houston for 1 year 16 million. Have to think DD and Red Sox were over-hyping their interest in Beltran if they weren't wiling to go 1/16. That is insane to pay that much for him. Somewhere between us and the Yankees, things got out of control concerning hm.
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Post by mjammz on Dec 3, 2016 14:12:45 GMT -5
I don't see how Encarnarcion gets a mega deal now. Seems like he'll get 4-90 or around there. Especially since it seems like Yankees are reluctant to go in hard on him. I think the Red Sox at least make a play for him if his market continues to be this slow to develop.
Jack Curry @jackcurryyes 3m I didn't mention Edwin E in last tweet. Yes, Yankees still in on him. But, based on desire to get under luxury tax, will be tight $ squeeze
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Post by soxfanatic on Dec 3, 2016 14:33:06 GMT -5
Old friend Roman Mendez has signed with the Hanshin Tigers.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 3, 2016 17:52:28 GMT -5
I'm disappointed the Red Sox didn't come away with Beltran. Hard to believe they couldn't have topped 1 year $16 million. He would have been a good fit. Now what? They're not getting Encarnacion. I would hope they wouldn't spend a draft pick on Jose Baustista.
Matt Holliday, Mike Napoli, or Chris Carter would make the most sense? I was hoping for a lefty hitter to replace Ortiz. Maybe the Sox trade for Jay Bruce or Yasmany Tomas? Reasonably cheap and the Mets want to get rid of him anyways so maybe he wouldn't cost much in a deal?
The other possibility is that they start the season with Sandoval at 3b, Shaw at 1b, and Ramirez DHing or shift them around (like Shaw at 3b, Ramirez at 1b and Sandoval DHing), but the thought of both Sandoval and Shaw in the lineup at the same time isn't exactly appealing. If that's the case it makes me hope that Moncada and Sam Travis are ready much sooner than later. I was hoping for a one year stop gap solution and Beltran would have been perfect for that.
For 2017 it's looking like it's going to be a huge downgrade from 2016 David Ortiz to whoever DHs for the team this year (assuming Hanley is the 1b).
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 3, 2016 19:05:00 GMT -5
Red Sox playing it smart when it comes to Chris Sale-
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 3, 2016 20:21:18 GMT -5
Red Sox playing it smart when it comes to Chris Sale- I don't know if that means the Sox are playing it smart. It could be that the White Sox are being absolutely totally ridiculous and the Red Sox are only willing to be simply ridiculous. Who knows? I'm guessing any deal the White Sox make for Sale would start with a demand for Benintendi AND/OR Moncada, and I think the Red Sox should say no and walk away - and maybe and hopefully they are.
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Post by larrycook on Dec 3, 2016 20:37:01 GMT -5
Manny randhawa says Dodgers close to signing hill for three years 40 million.
If this signing happens it should tighten up the trade market for pitching even more,
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 3, 2016 22:08:00 GMT -5
Manny randhawa says Dodgers close to signing hill for three years 40 million. If this signing happens it should tighten up the trade market for pitching even more, I don't view that as a problem for the Sox unless you're talking Pawtucket. ERA- of the six starter candidates where 100 is average (park and league adjusted) and smaller numbers are a good thing. Porcello 71 Wright 75 Pomeranz 79 Price 90 Rodriguez 106 Buchholz 108 That's 3 of the top 29 with 150 or more innings (I slid it down because Wright missed qualifying by only 6 innings.
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Post by telson13 on Dec 4, 2016 0:21:53 GMT -5
So, Lucas Giolito really kind of disappointed in his debut. The Nats are really in kind of a win-now mode given Harper's impending FA, Scherzer's age, and the precipitous decline of Werth and Zimmerman. Giolito is down on the depth chart, since the Nats have Scherzer, Strasburg, Ross, Roark, Gonzalez, AJ Cole, and Reynaldo Lopez. Would they entertain trading him, and at what price? JBJ alone is too much, but what if it were, say, JBJ-Buchholz for Giolito-Robles? Buchholz is more likely to help them this year than Giolito, and JBJ gives them an incredible OF for at least two years, plus insurance against Harper leaving. The Sox could sign Ian Desmond to replace JBJ in the OF (meaning they'd lose the 26th pick). I can imagine the Sox needing to add another player, but maybe depending on who they could get Michael Taylor back, who's struggled and has no spot in Washington's OF, but is a talented guy. Not a big advocate of trading Bradley Jr., but this deal would be near-neutral salary-wise this year, as long as Desmond isn't much more than $15-17M AAV. On a 4-5 year deal, that's reasonable, and there wouldn't be a crippling drop-off offensively or defensively.
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Post by larrycook on Dec 4, 2016 0:29:56 GMT -5
So, Lucas Giolito really kind of disappointed in his debut. The Nats are really in kind of a win-now mode given Harper's impending FA, Scherzer's age, and the precipitous decline of Werth and Zimmerman. Giolito is down on the depth chart, since the Nats have Scherzer, Strasburg, Ross, Roark, Gonzalez, AJ Cole, and Reynaldo Lopez. Would they entertain trading him, and at what price? JBJ alone is too much, but what if it were, say, JBJ-Buchholz for Giolito-Robles? Buchholz is more likely to help them this year than Giolito, and JBJ gives them an incredible OF for at least two years, plus insurance against Harper leaving. The Sox could sign Ian Desmond to replace JBJ in the OF (meaning they'd lose the 26th pick). I can imagine the Sox needing to add another player, but maybe depending on who they could get Michael Taylor back, who's struggled and has no spot in Washington's OF, but is a talented guy. Not a big advocate of trading Bradley Jr., but this deal would be near-neutral salary-wise this year, as long as Desmond isn't much more than $15-17M AAV. On a 4-5 year deal, that's reasonable, and there wouldn't be a crippling drop-off offensively or defensively. With strasburg's elbow barking, it is only a matter of time before he becomes a tommy John victim. I think the national need to get someone so they are prepared when that situation becomes a reality, If the sox were to trade Bradley, I would think benintendi takes over center and we sign/trade for a left fielder.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 4, 2016 0:45:03 GMT -5
Houston actually now has a decent lineup. They've added McCann, Reddick and Beltran and all with short years. Full season of Bregman this year too.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Dec 4, 2016 0:56:18 GMT -5
All the continuous Brady and Swihart trade talk is disheartening. I like our Rotation very much. I love our OF. I look forward to Benintendi, Moncada, Swihart, Travis in 2017. The Bullpen is an arm away from strong. I would be happy to add Chris Davis while Devers develops. I am hoping that this nearly home grown young team gets a chance to, again, win the Division ... and Pennant. A few tweaks is enough for that. We should not listen to the baseless pot stirring of Heyman and Cafardo.
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Post by rookie13 on Dec 4, 2016 1:01:57 GMT -5
I'm curious, how do you guys see Benintendi projecting as a CF? Obviously he's more than capable, as he played center for most of his minor league career. But how is his value affected by playing a full season in the majors at CF?
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Post by telson13 on Dec 4, 2016 1:43:24 GMT -5
I'm curious, how do you guys see Benintendi projecting as a CF? Obviously he's more than capable, as he played center for most of his minor league career. But how is his value affected by playing a full season in the majors at CF? Well, most of the talk from those in the know is that he's probably a slightly above-average defensive CF, with good routes, good speed underway, and an average strength but accurate arm. He was "below-average" defensively in LF last year, but we saw from his catch against TB that he's capable of playing very well there. LF in MLB is pretty weak right now, so he probably gets a WAR boost there simply due to the fact that the bar is relatively low, versus say CF, where there are some great players both offensively and defensively. Once he learns the Monster, I think scouts/FO people view him as a plus- to plus-plus defender in LF with a bat that's still above-average even versus the historical LF profile, and probably well above the current average. In CF his bat would be even better (especially if one removes Trout from the "average" calculation), but with a significant downgrade defensively. My guess is that he wouldn't gain or lose much value by shifting to CF, with his offense offsetting some or most of the lost defensive value. Eric could probably address that much better than me, but I think, right now, he's probably still more valuable as a LF who can play CF (especially since Fenway basically eliminates any hit he takes on arm strength) than as a CF, as long as the Sox have a better CF option (JBJ and Mookie). Benintendi almost assuredly can't play RF with his arm (unless he does some sort of throwing program to strengthen it and improve the efficiency of his motion), but he's a great example of looking for up-the-middle skills that play up on moving. If anything, Moncada would probably be a terrific RF in Fenway with his excellent speed and strong arm, provided he can take efficient routes and learn to play flies instead of grounders. So Benintendi really is earmarked for LF unless JBJ is traded or leaves via FA. I'm not sure how Benintendi vs Mookie for CF would play out, since Mookie's shown he's plus there, and has a bit better arm from what I can tell. Plus, he just seems to get better quickly no matter where he plays. He's also faster/has better range.
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Post by telson13 on Dec 4, 2016 2:05:05 GMT -5
All the continuous Brady and Swihart trade talk is disheartening. I like our Rotation very much. I love our OF. I look forward to Benintendi, Moncada, Swihart, Travis in 2017. The Bullpen is an arm away from strong. I would be happy to add Chris Davis while Devers develops. I am hoping that this nearly home grown young team gets a chance to, again, win the Division ... and Pennant. A few tweaks is enough for that. We should not listen to the baseless pot stirring of Heyman and Cafardo. As a repeat offender on the JBJ trade front, I'll say that I pretty much agree with what you've said about the team as constituted. I'm not sure about Chris Davis (?), but the rotation is very, very solid with the potential to be awesome. I think Swihart is a (perhaps unfairly?) forgotten man who still has great potential. I love what Joe Kelly showed at the end of last year, and I think Barnes has a lot more in the tank. Those two, plus Kimbrel and Ross, have the makings of a great group. I'm still really hoping that they bring back Koji and, if the price is right, Tazawa. Carson Smith is another dark horse who was absolutely filthy (as in, top-10 relievers in baseball) as a rookie. One more quality arm, with Hembree, Martin, Ysla, and maybe Shepard or even Robby Scott waiting in the wings would make for a very good bullpen, potentially outstanding. Really, my only interest in exploring JBJ trades would be to get back some elite-but-unestablished talent (like Giolito-Robles or Reyes-Rosenthal) with extra years of control, while the Sox have the depth to do so and an option (Desmond) in FA who would represent only a small step down. To me, there's no need to upgrade the rotation now, but getting a potential TOR starter who could be ready when Pomeranz/Porcello are (maybe) gone in 2-3 years in a huge opportunity. They have internal options who are close (Moncada, Travis, maybe even Devers, and Dubon) to real contribution. Really, as you said, the team is so good right now (I'd think favorites in the AL, with the caveat that Cleveland is going to be pretty damn good when they have Carrasco/Salazar/Kluber all healthy) that a few tweaks gets them over the top. I'm absolutely against a "go for it now" trade, but I think a trade that helps set them up for an extended run of excellence is worth exploring, particularly given the possibility/likelihood that JBJ becomes a FA. Now, while his contract is still very affordable, and he's coming off of a great offensive year, is the time to do it, if they're going to move him, especially with Desmond a FA and multiple teams with great young players needing CFers.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 4, 2016 2:29:40 GMT -5
Houston actually now has a decent lineup. They've added McCann, Reddick and Beltran and all with short years. Full season of Bregman this year too. Solid young guys. Bregman, Springer, Correa, Altuve. They might be good for a while until they have to sign contracts with those guys. Beltran is pretty much the perfect addition to that group.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 4, 2016 2:33:45 GMT -5
All the continuous Brady and Swihart trade talk is disheartening. I like our Rotation very much. I love our OF. I look forward to Benintendi, Moncada, Swihart, Travis in 2017. The Bullpen is an arm away from strong. I would be happy to add Chris Davis while Devers develops. I am hoping that this nearly home grown young team gets a chance to, again, win the Division ... and Pennant. A few tweaks is enough for that. We should not listen to the baseless pot stirring of Heyman and Cafardo. As a repeat offender on the JBJ trade front, I'll say that I pretty much agree with what you've said about the team as constituted. I'm not sure about Chris Davis (?), but the rotation is very, very solid with the potential to be awesome. I think Swihart is a (perhaps unfairly?) forgotten man who still has great potential. I love what Joe Kelly showed at the end of last year, and I think Barnes has a lot more in the tank. Those two, plus Kimbrel and Ross, have the makings of a great group. I'm still really hoping that they bring back Koji and, if the price is right, Tazawa. Carson Smith is another dark horse who was absolutely filthy (as in, top-10 relievers in baseball) as a rookie. One more quality arm, with Hembree, Martin, Ysla, and maybe Shepard or even Robby Scott waiting in the wings would make for a very good bullpen, potentially outstanding. Really, my only interest in exploring JBJ trades would be to get back some elite-but-unestablished talent (like Giolito-Robles or Reyes-Rosenthal) with extra years of control, while the Sox have the depth to do so and an option (Desmond) in FA who would represent only a small step down. To me, there's no need to upgrade the rotation now, but getting a potential TOR starter who could be ready when Pomeranz/Porcello are (maybe) gone in 2-3 years in a huge opportunity. They have internal options who are close (Moncada, Travis, maybe even Devers, and Dubon) to real contribution. Really, as you said, the team is so good right now (I'd think favorites in the AL, with the caveat that Cleveland is going to be pretty damn good when they have Carrasco/Salazar/Kluber all healthy) that a few tweaks gets them over the top. I'm absolutely against a "go for it now" trade, but I think a trade that helps set them up for an extended run of excellence is worth exploring, particularly given the possibility/likelihood that JBJ becomes a FA. Now, while his contract is still very affordable, and he's coming off of a great offensive year, is the time to do it, if they're going to move him, especially with Desmond a FA and multiple teams with great young players needing CFers. Hembree is out of options. He'll be on the 25 man.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 4, 2016 7:39:07 GMT -5
All the continuous Brady and Swihart trade talk is disheartening. I like our Rotation very much. I love our OF. I look forward to Benintendi, Moncada, Swihart, Travis in 2017. The Bullpen is an arm away from strong. I would be happy to add Chris Davis while Devers develops. I am hoping that this nearly home grown young team gets a chance to, again, win the Division ... and Pennant. A few tweaks is enough for that. We should not listen to the baseless pot stirring of Heyman and Cafardo. As a repeat offender on the JBJ trade front, I'll say that I pretty much agree with what you've said about the team as constituted. I'm not sure about Chris Davis (?), but the rotation is very, very solid with the potential to be awesome. I think Swihart is a (perhaps unfairly?) forgotten man who still has great potential. I love what Joe Kelly showed at the end of last year, and I think Barnes has a lot more in the tank. Those two, plus Kimbrel and Ross, have the makings of a great group. I'm still really hoping that they bring back Koji and, if the price is right, Tazawa. Carson Smith is another dark horse who was absolutely filthy (as in, top-10 relievers in baseball) as a rookie. One more quality arm, with Hembree, Martin, Ysla, and maybe Shepard or even Robby Scott waiting in the wings would make for a very good bullpen, potentially outstanding. Really, my only interest in exploring JBJ trades would be to get back some elite-but-unestablished talent (like Giolito-Robles or Reyes-Rosenthal) with extra years of control, while the Sox have the depth to do so and an option (Desmond) in FA who would represent only a small step down. To me, there's no need to upgrade the rotation now, but getting a potential TOR starter who could be ready when Pomeranz/Porcello are (maybe) gone in 2-3 years in a huge opportunity. They have internal options who are close (Moncada, Travis, maybe even Devers, and Dubon) to real contribution. Really, as you said, the team is so good right now (I'd think favorites in the AL, with the caveat that Cleveland is going to be pretty damn good when they have Carrasco/Salazar/Kluber all healthy) that a few tweaks gets them over the top. I'm absolutely against a "go for it now" trade, but I think a trade that helps set them up for an extended run of excellence is worth exploring, particularly given the possibility/likelihood that JBJ becomes a FA. Now, while his contract is still very affordable, and he's coming off of a great offensive year, is the time to do it, if they're going to move him, especially with Desmond a FA and multiple teams with great young players needing CFers. I think he meant Chris Carter.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 4, 2016 10:14:01 GMT -5
The more I think about it, the more I start to agree with what Evan Drellich of the Boston Herald wrote - the Sox don't want to go over that luxury threshold and that the new CBA didn't do the Red Sox many favors.
For all the fun it is to talk about how the Red Sox can trade for Chris Sale you have to tie yourself up in knots trying to find a realistic trade the White Sox would agree to that wouldn't totally mess up the present/and or future of the Red Sox.
The reality is (I think) that the Red Sox are looking for exactly what Dombroswki has said - a DH and a quality setup guy.
The Red Sox could simply spend nothing and rotate Shaw at 3b/1b and Sandoval at 3b/DH and Hanley at 1b/dh. I shudder at the weak spots that would expose in the lineup. Shaw (useless after May), Sandoval (declining and mediocre), and Leon (his deal with the devil expired in Sept) could wind up being a terrible bottom 3rd of the order, and if any of Pedroia/Benintendi/Betts/Ramirez/Bogaerts/Bradley get injured (Pedroia/Ramirez?) or go into major slumps (JBJ/Bogaerts), that lineup becomes kind of ordinary.
The Red Sox, without messing up their farm system, have two "surplus" players on their active roster: Shaw and Buchholz.
Buchholz, you can argue, is a necessity and perhaps Dombrowski thinks/knows that Pomeranz' health could be an issue, and that they need Buchholz and his $13 million salary as a backup who can be a frontline starter in spurts and is a hedge against he drop off to the tier below him: Owens/Elias/Johnson.
But if the Sox can't have their lineup as is and need to get a hitter, well we know they won't spend $16 million on Beltran (unless Beltran had an equal offer from Houston and chose the Astros), then you're looking at the mid-class tier. Maybe Holliday or even Napoli "falls" to them. Maybe they get a reasonable bargain on Carter or deal for Tomas and his long-term mid-tier contract or get Bruce and his $9 million deal. If they do, then they probably need to deal Buchholz.
So what does Buchholz fetch in a deal? I'd guess something similar to what the Cards got for Jaime Garcia? They got a useful starter in Gant. The Sox would need to get back a starter more reliable than Owens/Johnson/Elias (although to be fair to Johnson, he might step up at some point) than they can stash away at AAA.
Maybe they can get a quality setup man in a deal for Buchholz? And maybe Shaw is the guy that gets them that starter on the Fenway/Pawtucket shuttle that can step in if there are injuries.
That would allow the Sox to get their setup guy and DH while not going over the luxury tax threshold I'd think.
So I don't expect a free agent signing or major deal. I expect Dombrowski to deal from surplus such as Buchholz and Shaw and get a DH, a reliever, and a decent option depth starter who can go between AAA and Boston.
And speaking of depth I didn't broach the subject but I believe Swihart can be the catcher of the future. If Dombrowski believes he won't be, then add Swihart to the list of bait, front and center.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 4, 2016 11:11:12 GMT -5
Literally had to check BR to make sure there wasn't another Jeff Mathis or something. He's a catcher so I shouldn't have been so surprised that he's still kicking around but I seriously have not thought about that guy in probably five years.
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Post by thursty on Dec 4, 2016 13:22:35 GMT -5
Raise your hand if every time you read a Sale (or God forbid Cabrera) rumor involving the Red Sox you get a sick feeling in your stomach.
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Post by thursty on Dec 4, 2016 13:30:40 GMT -5
The dumbest thing one can do is judge a player's defensive skills by a highlight reel (or play) - remember Gary Matthews, Jr.? I've seen no evidence that Benintendi can play CF in the majors. He was minus in LF last year (small sample). His throwing was awful, both weak and misdirected; and it didn't take long for word to get around, you even had Cleveland taking advantage of his arm with Roberto Perez. Roberto Perez.
If the Red Sox move Bradley (something I would actively pursue), Betts is your CF; if you look at the Statcast data over the last two years, there's a lot of evidence that he's a better OF than Bradley already
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