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2017 Celtics offseason
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Post by texs31 on May 26, 2017 16:01:46 GMT -5
I think it'd have to be 150% to get from 8Mn to 12Mn.
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Post by texs31 on May 26, 2017 16:02:36 GMT -5
150???
I don't recall that ever being true. Thought it was more like 115.
EDIT: Just saw the comment on trade machine. I'm shocked but stand corrected.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 26, 2017 16:06:58 GMT -5
150??? I don't recall that ever being true. Thought it was more like 115. It all depends of salary amount and if your over the tax line. For example if you send out 9.9 to almost 20 million it's 125% plus 5 million if not over tax. 19.6 million and up it's 125% plus 100,000. Tax paying teams it's 125% plus 100,000 for all trades. |
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rjp313jr
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Post by rjp313jr on May 26, 2017 16:17:57 GMT -5
I'd be more surprised if he was a lottery pick at this point than I would be if he fell to the second round. A lot can happen between now and the draft but I don't think he's taking it slow. If there was confidence on their end he'd return to form then he'd go back to Duke and dominate and be a top 5 pick next year. With the chance he could get injured again, I don't think so. Well all reports say he's a lottery pick if his medicals are good. So your just assuming they are going to be bad I guess. There was an article saying he was advised not to play this year while not 100%. They knew it would hurt his stock. He played anyway wanting to get some experience and learn from a great coach. If he really just cared about draft position he wouldn't have played. There would be no games were he wasn't 100%. It would all be on his medicals. So for me I don't think he's worried at all. No all reports don't say that. Putting that aside, what exactly do you think Giles is as a player? He can't shoot. So you basically hope he's Tristian Thompson which would be great but Thompson is what he is by being healthy and his work rate on top of his athleticism. Draft express has Giles ranked 33rd B/R Wasserman ranks him 26 CBS has him ranked 16th Draft net mocked him at 20 Fox sports ranked him out if the top 20 |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 26, 2017 16:41:14 GMT -5
With the chance he could get injured again, I don't think so. Well all reports say he's a lottery pick if his medicals are good. So your just assuming they are going to be bad I guess. There was an article saying he was advised not to play this year while not 100%. They knew it would hurt his stock. He played anyway wanting to get some experience and learn from a great coach. If he really just cared about draft position he wouldn't have played. There would be no games were he wasn't 100%. It would all be on his medicals. So for me I don't think he's worried at all. No all reports don't say that. Putting that aside, what exactly do you think Giles is as a player? He can't shoot. So you basically hope he's Tristian Thompson which would be great but Thompson is what he is by being healthy and his work rate on top of his athleticism. Draft express has Giles ranked 33rd B/R Wasserman ranks him 26 CBS has him ranked 16th Draft net mocked him at 20 Fox sports ranked him out if the top 20 Rip those aren't reports, those are draft rankings based off his play and what he currently is. I'm talking about reports coming from NBA teams like the SI one I posted or ESPN reports. They all say the same thing, if his medicals are good he's most likely a lottery pick. Last year per draft express he had the 5th best rebounding per 40 numbers in there top 100. That gives you an idea of how good he can be when healthy. Even when not healthy he's still an elite rebounder. I think his ceiling is higher than Thompson, but it's not a bad comp. |
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Post by rjp313jr on May 26, 2017 16:50:16 GMT -5
I was using those as examples as to where he stood as of today. If a team takes him in the lottery based on a hope and a prayer that he gets healthy - returns to his jr of high school form and doesn't blow out his knee for a fourth time then they are dumb. I have no doubt teams will talk him up they do that all the time with guys they don't want to take. That being said 11-25 is pretty interchangeable in this draft which to me is all the more reason not to take Giles.
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Post by steveofbradenton on May 26, 2017 18:03:52 GMT -5
I really like what I've seen on Zizic. The kid is a real banger and relentless. Don't be surprised if he is part of the rotation by mid-season. I've read everything you all said about Giles. What do think about Tony Bradley from UNC? As a fan of the Tar Heels for over 40 years, I was disappointed he decided to stay on the draft. He would have been the "man" next year and probably been a lottery pick next year.
Zizic will play 15 per game next season!
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Post by texs31 on May 26, 2017 19:07:16 GMT -5
I've heard the concern on Bradley is a lack of athleticism. He's big but more the plodding center type and those guys are losing their place in the NBA.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 26, 2017 20:07:29 GMT -5
Look at Rips comments about Giles 32.5 max vertical, which for a player like him isn't good. Bradley had a 27.5 max vertical fully healthy. There's no injury holding him back, really no chance that improves much, unlike Giles. Now that being said, he's like 6'11", with a 7'5" wingspan and 250 pounds. He has some skills, he's not totally raw. I like him, would be happy to get him at pick #37. At his size and wingspan he doesn't have to jump much to rebound or get shoots off. Though he would need to become highly skilled to be more than a rebounding big off bench. I also think he's limited to center only because of his lack of athleticism. I see a rawer Roy Hibbert type player. Which isn't that bad, Hibbert in his prime was a very useful player. I think player's like Bradley are being slightly undervalued right now. Look at Nurkic, big highly skilled unathletic players can still have a huge impact on the game.
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Post by voiceofreason on May 27, 2017 5:50:56 GMT -5
Welp... it's officially the offseason now so we need a new thread. One thing it seems most of us agree on is things are going to happen this offseason. I mean just having the number 1 pick guarantees that. Here goes my offseason plan: 1. Keep the number 1 pick AND draft Fultz. 2. Sign Hayward, but who do you trade to make room to sign Hayward and open up time for Fultz? 3. Trade Smart.... so hard for ME to say this as I love me some Marcus. But he should be the one in my opinion for these reasons: A. You cannot trade Isaiah and sign Hayward.. you just can't. Makes no sense for a guy like Hayward to come here but the team gives up their best scorer to go get him. B. By going the route I'm taking you are playing the short and long game together. This means you need to take some calculated risks to make yourself better on the short-term and to me that's keeping Avery and his injury history. He's the best two way player on the team when healthy and he gets better EVERY year. He's still young and he can guard point guards. His size is less of an issue as Fultz matures and can guard 2 guards. A Fultz/Bradley back court in a couple years with Isaiah being able to be strategically used for 30 minutes a night could be deadly. All 3 are scorers and Fultz should be able to play good defense (remember with Avery he won't need to match up on the top guy), shoot, create for others and rebound his position. C. One has to go and Marcus Opens enough salary and is easier to justify trading for picks and salary relief. Plus, you lose way too much by losing Bradley. How much improved is a team that subtracts Bradley but adds Hayward? D. Trading Crowder instead doesn't make sense . The team will will need him as a 3/4 playing fewer minutes. His contract and skill set are perfect for that. Plus, he should be even more efficient with more open looks when on the floor with Hayward drawing attention. 4. Keep the 2018 Nets pick too!!!! This is a long term short term thing and there is no trade that I can see then making AFTER signing Hayward that doesn't completely gut key players off this team. They will need to match salaries and the only ones left would be Bradley, Crowder, Isaiah, Brown, Fultz and Horford. See above. Makes no sense. Now you're giving up the future plus the present. 5. Use all the midlevel exception money to sign a big to a 2 year deal with second year non-guaranteed. It really may be Johnson again... tho not ideal. This is important for later. 6. Bring over Zizic, Yabusele and Nader to fill key bench roles. Zizic should be given the chance to fill the role we need for a big who can rebound (supposed to be a great rebounder) and also shoot. Yabu and Nader will have more limited roles but Nader could actually surprise with his ability to defend... unfortunately his 3 point shot is behind where we'd like but maybe he will improve it a bit this offseason. 7. Wait until the season to possibly trade for another big. We know this team can win games in the regular season with the team as is. The key is seeing how the pieces fit- get the lay of the land then figure out what you need specifically. If Chandler is a guy we need and he's still playing well then we use the midlevel contract guy plus (maybe our 2018 first) to swing a deal. My roster: Guards: Isaiah, Bradley, Fultz, Rozier Wings: Hayward, Brown, Crowder, Nader Bigs: Horford, Mid-level guy, Zizic, Yabusele That's 12, then the next 3 spots are filled out with veteran free agents and/or a second round pick or 2. I left Jackson off this - he could be kept and fall into the guard mix or he can be traded outright to open space. Obviously, a younger team. I don't think we take a step back though. The bench in thinner, but much more upside and the top is stronger - which is exactly what's needed. I really like the lineup you propose with 1 or 2 differences. Although I am excited and optimistic about Zizic and Yabusele I think expecting and relying on them too much next year is too optimistic for 2 rookies. I would like to see the C's push the cap and get a more established big. As I have said before I think Tyson Chandler could be that guy. I am also a bit torn on who to trade. Smart is a good candidate but Crowder is also. They both play a position that could be crowded next year. Smart has a higher ceiling while Crowder has the team friendly contract. Which one is better off the bench in the future? Is Smart going to affordable after the coming year? Which one nets you more in a trade? I hope whatever Danny does it ends up being the right choice. Whatever the C's do this summer I expect them to take another step forward as a team and win more games next year but in the end, barring an injury to the greatest player on Earth, they won't get by the Cavs. But maybe they improve enough to beat the Cavs with Lebron playing but Love or Kyrie out. |
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Post by voiceofreason on May 27, 2017 5:57:22 GMT -5
Ctfisher you don't trade the #1 pick in this draft for one year of anyone! I don't trade it for one year of LeBron! I most likely don't trade it for George at all, but if I did he has to sign extension for me to make trade. In NBA you take best player and work it out later. Rip I agree with most of what you said. The only thing about Smart is what can you get? You would need a team that thinks they can improve his shot. Otherwise you're just not getting much for him. Maybe a future late first round pick and we have a ton of those. You will have to get very creative to find a good trade for him. Maybe a late first and a former 2nd round international guy that you really like, is cheap and ready to help us. Man there just aren't many of those guys. I agree he makes the most sense, because you want Fultz being the backup PG learning how to run a team. We really need to find out the exact number of the cap, so we know exactly how much money we need to move. That or trade him for a first in this draft and take an international player and keep him overseas if we can get Hayward and need the extra money. As to keeping Bradley and Crowder if we get Hayward, maybe. For example getting a Favors for Crowder might be better than having Crowder on your bench. You have to fix our bigs problem if you get Hayward. Most likely that won't happen with mid level money and Johnson is just not the answer. I can see getting a player like Favors and then bringing back Johnson. You can't count on anything from Zizic and Yabu. If they are ready it's a huge bonus. We can't wait till deadline to fill what most likely will be are biggest need! The players are limited and you get very little time to incorporate them. It's just better to do it in offseason. This also gives Brown more minutes. How good is Fultz year 1? If you believe he's a ROY type player right out of gate, I can see moving both Bradley and Smart. It's not likely, but Rozier impressed me in playoffs. He's still raw, but his upside is huge. He can do things no one else on team can. He needs to improve his shot and finishing at rim, but I wouldn't worry about him being my third guard if you believe Fultz is a stud. He sure looks like a player that just needs more playing time to break out. I just love watching him shot a 3 and go hard to rim for a rebound. He impressed me the most during playoffs and I'm glad they didn't trade him. It almost seems like a waste to play him 15 minutes a game next year. My shocking Bradley trade, trade him for a late lottery pick and take Giles if he checks out OK health wise. It's a pipe dream I know and it's incredibly risky. It's also the type of move that could win us titles. He's a guy pre injury that was the clear #1 player in class. He also fills our biggest need. You could get maybe the two best players in draft and the foundation for a 10 year championship run. This offseason is going to be very interesting! Love the idea of trying to get Giles in the fold but as always what is the cost? Upside is huge! |
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Post by rjp313jr on May 27, 2017 6:07:32 GMT -5
In the lineup I proposed if you don't want to rely on Yabu and Zizic as bottom end rotation pieces then I'm not sure what you expect from them. Let's say Crowder still starts... in my world Brown, Fultz, Rozier and the midlevel big are your 6-9 spots in the rotation. Do you want Yabu or Zizic in the D league not suiting up for games? Bringing back Green on a veteran minimum deal would be great we need a guy like that.
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Post by rjp313jr on May 27, 2017 6:09:33 GMT -5
As for Chandler, like we spoke of before with Favors I am not so sure you can add a big like him before that window opens that allows you to sign newly signed free agents. The salary you will need doesn't really exist. You need to use the midlevel guys slot to deal for Chandler.
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Post by rjp313jr on May 27, 2017 6:16:25 GMT -5
The more interesting plan to explore may he not being able to get Hayward... when thinking of that make sure you factor in the fact that this would kick in AFTER the draft and the start of free agency. This is important because it's harder to trade the draft pick (less so since it's number 1 and there is a clear cut number 1 pick) after the draft than during. I am sure the Pacers or Bulls would still want Fultz but what if they used draft capital on a PG already? The positive on Fultz is you can play him off the ball too but it still devalues things a little.
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Post by texs31 on May 27, 2017 7:47:30 GMT -5
Bobby Marks and A Sherrod Blakely both surmised that George (Marks) and Blakely (Butler) could be obtained without either BRK pick.
Not sure I buy that unless the players force the teams hands.
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Post by voiceofreason on May 27, 2017 8:54:28 GMT -5
I am not as informed about all the intricacies of the CBA and salary manipulation as some of you so I cant answer the HOW question. Maybe it just cant happen but I look at the Cavs total salary cap and while knowing it will result in a surcharge it seems to me to make sense to keep both a team built for now and the future to eat the cost of going over the cap. I would assume that there is still plenty of profit for the owners to justify the strategy.
Just seems paramount to keep and develop most of the youth while still playing at a top 5 team level. Could result in a 10 year window of competing at a really high level that includes a couple championships. We have all seen the teams that just try to build around youth vs infusing the youth with a winning environment. It might be greedy but I think a run like San Antons would be attainable. Then again that could also be influenced by the Patriots run and being spoiled.
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Post by rjp313jr on May 27, 2017 11:38:43 GMT -5
Developing youth in a competitive environment is definitely doable. You don't see it a ton because it's rare you get these draft picks on a legit team. All the more reason you keep them.
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Post by ctfisher on May 27, 2017 11:46:31 GMT -5
Ctfisher you don't trade the #1 pick in this draft for one year of anyone! I don't trade it for one year of LeBron! I most likely don't trade it for George at all, but if I did he has to sign extension for me to make trade. In NBA you take best player and work it out later. What I said was, look into that if you can get him to tack on an additional year off the bat. It would be a calculated risk that getting him in the fold on a winning team that has a much better chance of making noise than Indy would sell him on staying, and also that the lakers likely wouldn't be willing to wait long enough to keep waiting to sign him. In that scenario he'd also be leaving a ton of money on the table if he left, and he'd likely be leaving to go to a worse team. There has been no buzz about him going elsewhere, so that's a risk I'd be willing to take. You say you take the best player and work it out later- it's pretty clear that Paul George is the best player in that conversation. It's not about shying away from making the pick because of a roster crunch- it's about making the most efficient use of those resources. I'd rather use that pick to add Paul george under the right circumstances than fultz, because with george added to the core we already have next year we might actually be one meaningful Cleveland injury away from going to the finals. With all that said, I'm not at all opposed to staying put and taking fultz- I just think that Danny needs to look at all the options out there and keeping the pick is definitely not a no brainer |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 27, 2017 13:45:13 GMT -5
In the lineup I proposed if you don't want to rely on Yabu and Zizic as bottom end rotation pieces then I'm not sure what you expect from them. Let's say Crowder still starts... in my world Brown, Fultz, Rozier and the midlevel big are your 6-9 spots in the rotation. Do you want Yabu or Zizic in the D league not suiting up for games? Bringing back Green on a veteran minimum deal would be great we need a guy like that. Rip then who starts next to Horford? If your Vet is a 6-9 type guy. You have Horford, Vet, Zizic and Yabu as our bigs. That's not them as backend type guys, that's them playing major minutes. They would be replacing Johnson, KO and Jerebko. In my opinion just handing them the top backup big spots is a mistake. They are one injury away from starting. Especially when you mention bring back Johnson as the Vet when he plays like 15 minutes a night. You need one more Vet in my opinion. I sure want them to play big minutes, but they need to earn the minutes. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 27, 2017 14:01:01 GMT -5
As for Chandler, like we spoke of before with Favors I am not so sure you can add a big like him before that window opens that allows you to sign newly signed free agents. The salary you will need doesn't really exist. You need to use the midlevel guys slot to deal for Chandler. We put that one to bed you can trade for Favors. Chandler is almost 2 million more. If you move all of Smarts salary and keep a Mickey, add him to the Favors package you can get Chandler. The only problem is that Chandler is not worth Crowder. So the Suns would need to send you something back and it would need to be big value. A future first round pick would be interesting. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 27, 2017 14:17:51 GMT -5
Ctfisher you don't trade the #1 pick in this draft for one year of anyone! I don't trade it for one year of LeBron! I most likely don't trade it for George at all, but if I did he has to sign extension for me to make trade. In NBA you take best player and work it out later. What I said was, look into that if you can get him to tack on an additional year off the bat. It would be a calculated risk that getting him in the fold on a winning team that has a much better chance of making noise than Indy would sell him on staying, and also that the lakers likely wouldn't be willing to wait long enough to keep waiting to sign him. In that scenario he'd also be leaving a ton of money on the table if he left, and he'd likely be leaving to go to a worse team. There has been no buzz about him going elsewhere, so that's a risk I'd be willing to take. You say you take the best player and work it out later- it's pretty clear that Paul George is the best player in that conversation. It's not about shying away from making the pick because of a roster crunch- it's about making the most efficient use of those resources. I'd rather use that pick to add Paul george under the right circumstances than fultz, because with george added to the core we already have next year we might actually be one meaningful Cleveland injury away from going to the finals. With all that said, I'm not at all opposed to staying put and taking fultz- I just think that Danny needs to look at all the options out there and keeping the pick is definitely not a no brainer Your first option should always be Hayward and Fultz in my opinion. I think there's no chance he picks up player option, it would cost him money. No Hayward and George is willing to sign an extension that guarantees we have him for 3-4 years and we can talk. I'm in no way gambling that he wants to stay here. It's Boston and the weather sucks. I wonder every winter if i'm crazy for living in Massachusetts. Nevermind all the talk of him wanting to play in LA. Man that's the exact opposite of Boston. If you want to gamble on him, trade Crowder, Smart and some non Nets first round picks for him. I could live with that as a gamble, not Fultz. No other team is going to trade them anything close to Fultz for one year of George. |
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Post by rjp313jr on May 27, 2017 18:29:59 GMT -5
In the lineup I proposed if you don't want to rely on Yabu and Zizic as bottom end rotation pieces then I'm not sure what you expect from them. Let's say Crowder still starts... in my world Brown, Fultz, Rozier and the midlevel big are your 6-9 spots in the rotation. Do you want Yabu or Zizic in the D league not suiting up for games? Bringing back Green on a veteran minimum deal would be great we need a guy like that. Rip then who starts next to Horford? If your Vet is a 6-9 type guy. You have Horford, Vet, Zizic and Yabu as our bigs. That's not them as backend type guys, that's them playing major minutes. They would be replacing Johnson, KO and Jerebko. In my opinion just handing them the top backup big spots is a mistake. They are one injury away from starting. Especially when you mention bring back Johnson as the Vet when he plays like 15 minutes a night. You need one more Vet in my opinion. I sure want them to play big minutes, but they need to earn the minutes. Depends on the lineup you want. Johnson starts this year so why is bringing him back but adding Hayward anything but an improvement? The starting lineup is rather irrelevant. I guarantee you if Hayward is sign he plays a lot with him and Horford as the biggest players on the court. That's just Brads system. Then they will have Zizic and Yabu plus another veteran big signing.. that's just if Johnson is the best you can do with that money which if they sign Hayward more options will be looking to sign here. Maybe even a Bogut for short dough etc. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 27, 2017 19:04:55 GMT -5
Rip then who starts next to Horford? If your Vet is a 6-9 type guy. You have Horford, Vet, Zizic and Yabu as our bigs. That's not them as backend type guys, that's them playing major minutes. They would be replacing Johnson, KO and Jerebko. In my opinion just handing them the top backup big spots is a mistake. They are one injury away from starting. Especially when you mention bring back Johnson as the Vet when he plays like 15 minutes a night. You need one more Vet in my opinion. I sure want them to play big minutes, but they need to earn the minutes. Depends on the lineup you want. Johnson starts this year so why is bringing him back but adding Hayward anything but an improvement? The starting lineup is rather irrelevant. I guarantee you if Hayward is sign he plays a lot with him and Horford as the biggest players on the court. That's just Brads system. Then they will have Zizic and Yabu plus another veteran big signing.. that's just if Johnson is the best you can do with that money which if they sign Hayward more options will be looking to sign here. Maybe even a Bogut for short dough etc. It's simple to get Hayward your losing KO, Jerebko and Johnson. With rebounding and interior D already our biggest need. Now if you bring back Johnson, OK. Thing is we need an upgrade to compete with Cavs and Warriors, your plan has downgraded us. Unless you really think Zizic and Yabu as rookies can be better than KO and Jerebko. Even if they are OK as rookies neither player is the defensive force we need inside. That's why we keep talking about players like Favors and Chandler. |
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Post by rjp313jr on May 28, 2017 7:08:50 GMT -5
You say it's our biggest need, but I don't agree with that. A guy like Tristian Thompson works do well on the Cavs because there are 3 go to scorers and other shooters. Wouldn't work as well on the Celtics because the only reason their offense puts up numbers is Stevens and his ridiculous offensive sets. It takes 5 guys all working together which is why it's both hard for defenses to defend and frustratingly streaky. It's why Lue said the Celtics are harder to prep for than the Warriors. He wasn't saying our offense is better just that its way more complex. Ergo you can't just slide a rebounding shot blocking big in there and make it all better without first adding the offensive pieces.
Maybe I missed something but I have not seen how you clear space for Hayward THEN trade for Favors. We need to trade one or Smart, Bradley and Crowder for the Hayward space. Then the deal for Favors had Smart and Crowder... what am I missing here?
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Post by rjp313jr on May 28, 2017 7:13:58 GMT -5
Oh and we aren building a team this offseason to "compete" with the Cavs and Warriors and if we try to they are going to F up the franchise. They should be upgrading the talent on the roster and looking at 2018 and 2019 as the years if it all comes together maybe they can. That's Brown year 3, Fultz, Yabu and Zizic year 2 and 2018 nets pick (that big you want?) as a rookie.
Next year's team with Hayward and some lower priced veteran additions can still make and ECF and push the Cavs harder than they did this year.
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