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2017 Celtics offseason
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Post by ctfisher on Jun 13, 2017 10:03:46 GMT -5
Jackson cancelled his workout with the Celtics and Fultz is meeting with the Lakers this week. Not sure what any of it means but it's odd that Jackson would cancel with the Celtics. Some think the Cs would draft him over Fultz. I started to talk myself into him but I want the scorer in Fultz. We've drafted defensive guys with broken shots twice recently (Smart and Brown) and we made out with Brown's shot not being bad but didn't with Marcus. I'd rather the mature kid who has had to work for his standing that can score to the immature kid who has always been the man who struggles to score. If you consider fit I really don't think Jackson makes any sense- admittedly length and athleticism make him versatile, but in the short run he basically exactly duplicates jaylens skill set except he's a little longer and a worse shooter. I do think if malik monk were a little higher on draft boards he's a guy we'd think about moving down for- I think he's kindof a perfect fit, a guy who should be able to be lethal moving without the ball right off the bat, elite athlete with at least something of an off-the-bounce game already. I wouldn't hate the idea of moving down with the Kings and maybe seeing if you could get 5 and 10 from them and grab monk and Collins- I'm not sure either team does that deal but I'd definitely think about it. I'd also be poking around willie Cauley stein in case there's a deal to be made there, I still think he'd be a perfect fit for this team |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 13, 2017 11:53:09 GMT -5
Where is everyone getting Brown is a good shooter or we got lucky? Last year it was basically within 3 feet or a 3 pointer. He was well below 40% from 3 ft to inside 3 point line. Jackson was a better 3 point shooter in college, but a worst ft shooter compared to Brown. Overall I see them as equal, I was actually impressed Jackson raised his 3 point shooting to a very nice level as the sesson went along.
Jackson in no way duplicates Brown. Jackson is like a Smart, a very good defender the minute he walks onto an NBA floor. A guy that was elite guarding 1-4 in College. A guy that fills the stats sheets in every category. He's what you hope Brown can become, but isn't even close to that now. Just compare there College stats Jackson had the rebounds, assists, steals and blocks that you thought Brown should have had. Jackson excelled at playing a small ball pf in college, mainly because he's a great defender that can rebound. Heck his rebounding numbers are very good as he was playing against bigger players and still did a good job.
I really like Monk, but his size and lack of D really limits his upside. I don't think I could do that Kings deal straight up. You could trade down with Lakers or Sixers, then trade with Kings. I have real questions about Collins. The Kings would have to start adding players like WCS to that offer.
We will have to see if Jackson is going to reschedule or if he is refusing to workout for Boston. Makes very little sense for him to not workout for the team with the #1 pick.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 13, 2017 15:43:49 GMT -5
I don't think they duplicate each other at all or at least not in a way that they cannot play with one another. This isn't about Jackson vs Brown for me it's just Fultz is easily the best player in this draft and that's who we should take. Trading down for two lessor players is not the formula to win in the NBA.
The Celtics don't have one player right now who can be a top 3 on a title team any time soon. The best hope they have is Brown, Fultz and next years pick.
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Post by tizzle on Jun 13, 2017 16:39:33 GMT -5
There could be an innocent explanation for Jackson cancelling the visit. Just something coming up, etc. If so, we'll hear of it being rescheduled soon.
Otherwise, the suspicion has to be that he made a deal with another team.
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Post by texs31 on Jun 13, 2017 16:41:28 GMT -5
Usually, when you have a promise from a team, you still take visits from those higher in the order.
The promuse is that the player won't drop any further.
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Post by texs31 on Jun 13, 2017 16:43:44 GMT -5
To me, it seems like his agent sees Fultz to Boston as a forgone conclusion and Danny is just doing due diligence.
Agent could feel that the risk of injury during the workout outweighs the benefit of the miniscule percent chance Boston passes on Fultz or trades back.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 13, 2017 17:59:48 GMT -5
Usually when you get a promise you stop all workouts. That's the agreement you stop workouts and we take you at this pick. They don't want a higher team taking him, so they make the deal. A player does it because they either like that team or knowing they have a floor. Example being taken in first round with a guaranteed contract.
I just can't see a team giving a player a guarantee and being ok with that player trying to get another team to take him higher.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 13, 2017 18:07:04 GMT -5
There has been a ton of rumblings that agents don't want there top picks going to Boston. Too much talent and depth. Limits the minutes the player will get and most likely means they won't start right away. I think it's foolish, if your client has even a small chance to go #1 overall you should workout for that team. There's a lot of money at stake.
Let's wait and see if Jackson does indeed workout for Boston. I think he will. If I had to guess I would say there's a reason other than not wanting to workout for Boston, as the reason he canceled.
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Post by texs31 on Jun 13, 2017 19:31:35 GMT -5
In my years of following the draft, I've definitely seen guys cancel workouts below a certain pick but maintain those above.
The "stop all workouts" move only makes sense for a guy who is being promised "above his tier".
It makes ZERO sense for JJ to accept a promise at 3 (for example) and not take a shot at blowing Boston away.
So it's either an agent not wanting to waste his clients time/energy or, as UMASS suggests, part of this concern over PT issue.
Though I think that is inctedibly short sighted of the agent. They MUST know that something is likely to give (either other young players/picks packaged in a trade or veterans shipped off in advance of pending free agency). Either way, a 1st overall is going to get their time.
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Post by tizzle on Jun 13, 2017 19:37:26 GMT -5
Usually, when you have a promise from a team, you still take visits from those higher in the order. The promuse is that the player won't drop any further. Not true. There would be no benefit to the promising team in that case. |
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Post by texs31 on Jun 13, 2017 20:21:15 GMT -5
If it's a guy who is a back of 1st to early second guy, you're right. The promise to take him higher than he'd otherwise go in exchange for no other workouts.
But for a guy who has every reason to believe he could go higher than the promised spot, there is no benefit to him accepting the promise (other than to know he won't go lower and doesn't have to work out for those teams).
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Post by texs31 on Jun 13, 2017 20:56:46 GMT -5
I wonder if LAL can convince, say, Phoenix that they need to trade up to get Jackson. LAL can get an asset and still get 1 of Ball or Fox.
That being said, I think JJ had a 2nd workout with Lakers already so maybe they just take him.
I hate to root against a young man solely bc of his father but a draft night slide of Ball would be amazing drama.
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Post by tizzle on Jun 13, 2017 21:21:23 GMT -5
If it's a guy who is a back of 1st to early second guy, you're right. The promise to take him higher than he'd otherwise go in exchange for no other workouts. But for a guy who has every reason to believe he could go higher than the promised spot, there is no benefit to him accepting the promise (other than to know he won't go lower and doesn't have to work out for those teams). I don't understand the response. You're saying there is no benefit to him, apart front the one obvious benefit that he definitely does get. And which is the benefit for every player who makes one of those promise deals. Assuming he had a deal with Philly at 3 (and this is absolutely and completely hypothetical) then what's in it for him is he can't go lower than 3. Besides the pride aspect of it, he would lose money for every spot he falls. And maybe he has reasons (again, hypothetically) for wanting to play in Philly. For Philly, the benefit is that Jackson doesn't work out for the top 2 teams, drastically cutting the chances they lose out on him. That's the benefit to each party. The downside to Jackson is obviously losing a chance to go 1 or 2. For Philly, it's giving up the right to draft someone they might like better if they ended up falling to 3. That's how things work. You weight the potential upsides and the downsides. Presumably, if Jackson (and his agent and whatever other advisors) thought there was a greater chance of going top 2 than falling much beyond 3, then he probably wouldn't make such a deal. But these are the considerations that go into such an agreement. But a team wouldn't agree to a "we will take you at 3, we promise. But if you want to work out for the top 2 teams and try to get yourself drafted there, go for it" deal. That's just not how these promises work. |
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Post by texs31 on Jun 13, 2017 21:28:02 GMT -5
But doesn't he have every reason to believe he can go 3 on mwrit. Not bc of a promise?
If I'm JJ, or his agent, I think I can/should be #2 at worst. Why accept a deal at #3. What, Philly won't take the 2nd or 3rd best player at 3 if he works out for 1 or 2?
That being said, most of this promise talk ends up being rubbish (or, at least, never admitted to) so its hard to know the motivation.
I just don't see a player turning down both the salary and, let's face it, prestige of being #1 overall just so they can be #3 (for example) overall.
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Post by tizzle on Jun 13, 2017 21:51:28 GMT -5
Well, I've been more responding to your question, or maybe misunderstanding, about how these promises work, and that hypothetical.
As to the actual likelihood of that hypothetical, that's a whole different discussion. But I don't actually think there's much of a chance he goes 1. I think the odds of that are virtually nil. And there's at least a bit of a chance he could fall, given the need of Philly and Sacremento for PGs and what I imagine is at least a healthy minority opinion that Tatum might be better than JJ. Plus you have a guy who might have a higher ceiling (though lower floor) in Isaac. So it's not out of the question that he'd make a promise at 3.
Though the way things look at the moment, it seems more likely he has a promise form the Lakers.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 13, 2017 21:54:42 GMT -5
If a player didn't want to come to Boston at number because there was "too much competition" then he's not worthy of the number 1 pick. This isn't an undrafted free agent looking for fit
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 13, 2017 22:00:55 GMT -5
Other than the Celtics drafting and keeping Fultz the only other thing that would make me happy on draft night is Ball not going to the Lakers. And I know I'm a terrible person for that but I just want to see the look on his fathers face.
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Post by tizzle on Jun 13, 2017 22:00:59 GMT -5
If a player didn't want to come to Boston at number because there was "too much competition" then he's not worthy of the number 1 pick. This isn't an undrafted free agent looking for fit And instead choosing to play for a crap team nowhere near contending raises other questions about their priorities. |
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Post by ctfisher on Jun 13, 2017 23:00:26 GMT -5
I don't think they duplicate each other at all or at least not in a way that they cannot play with one another. This isn't about Jackson vs Brown for me it's just Fultz is easily the best player in this draft and that's who we should take. Trading down for two lessor players is not the formula to win in the NBA. The Celtics don't have one player right now who can be a top 3 on a title team any time soon. The best hope they have is Brown, Fultz and next years pick. I should have put this better: in terms of the role he'd play for us next year, it would likely be similar to what Brown did this year, but Jackson isn't, in my view, a good fit for that role. Crowder is going to be the guy that defends multiple positions and plays small ball 4- it's perfectly possible that Jackson would be better in that role in a couple of years, but that's not really a spot where we need an upgrade. Another guy who can shoot/create for himself off the dribble is much more of a need than a versatile defender who would likely be a below average nba offensive player at least for next year. Behind improved rebounding and legit rim protection, more guys who can create offense without being defensive liabilities would be my aim, and to give Isaiah space to work that means shooting. I'd agree that Fultz is the best prospect in the draft, but basically I think on principle that, if you don't have a guy you consider a generational prospect like James or Durant or someone similar and you're as good of a team as the Celtics are right now, you should always see what's out there, particularly in a draft with as much depth as this one. I don't think Fultz is that kind of prospect, and while I think his skill set is a good fit, he doesn't address the biggest needs we have. If you can find a package that keeps you young, gives you upside and plugs those gaps, you have to consider it - I don't know if it's out there, but I think Danny will be looking or at least listening |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 14, 2017 0:31:05 GMT -5
Texas first I don't think Jackson got a promise. It just doesn't make sense yet. We don't even know for sure who will go #1. I know it's like 95% chance Fultz does, but it's not a given yet. Also he just worked out for Lakers again.
Second when you get a promise you just don't workout anymore. Every year a guy shuts it down and the rumors fly he has a promise. That's just the way it goes. Players like Jackson don't agree to things like promises that often. Mainly because he's already seen as an elite player in this draft class. While it might be small he has a legit chance to go #1. He has that type of talent.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 14, 2017 0:37:06 GMT -5
If a player didn't want to come to Boston at number because there was "too much competition" then he's not worthy of the number 1 pick. This isn't an undrafted free agent looking for fit The reports were the agents wouldn't allow it, has nothing to do with the players. This was weeks ago anyway. It's the same thing agents have done to Kings for years. In a way it makes perfect sense. Brown got less playing time on Celtics, then he would have on Lakers for example. |
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Post by tizzle on Jun 14, 2017 0:39:01 GMT -5
If a player didn't want to come to Boston at number because there was "too much competition" then he's not worthy of the number 1 pick. This isn't an undrafted free agent looking for fit The reports were the agents wouldn't allow it, has nothing to do with the players. This was weeks ago anyway. It's the same thing agents have done to Kings for years. In a way it makes perfect sense. Brown got less playing time on Celtics, then he would have on Lakers for example. An agent can't "not allow it". The player has to agree to it. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 14, 2017 6:46:55 GMT -5
If a player didn't want to come to Boston at number because there was "too much competition" then he's not worthy of the number 1 pick. This isn't an undrafted free agent looking for fit The reports were the agents wouldn't allow it, has nothing to do with the players. This was weeks ago anyway. It's the same thing agents have done to Kings for years. In a way it makes perfect sense. Brown got less playing time on Celtics, then he would have on Lakers for example. Sure agents might not prefer it but players run the agents or at least they are supposed to. It only makes sense if you have no confidence in yourself, aren't competitive or aren't ready for the NBA. I think the last part is the most telling. A lot of these so called elite prospects aren't even ready to play in the NBA yet. The Kings are a crappy team in dysfunction that's not comparable to the Celtics situation. Brown got less playing time and is probably a better player as a result of his situation. He's also gone out of his way to talk about how that's been good for him. |
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Post by texs31 on Jun 14, 2017 9:14:00 GMT -5
New Foot Locker commercial for Father's Day actual makes me want to like Ball. Pretty funny.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 14, 2017 9:38:15 GMT -5
New Foot Locker commercial for Father's Day actual makes me want to like Ball. Pretty funny. Just came here to post it. Outstanding. /video/1 |
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