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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 12, 2018 15:15:07 GMT -5
Which is pointless btw, he will never ever be Jordan. At the risk of a tangent (that maybe should go in its own thread), I've started to come around on this. Consider the following: 1) Yes, at the time he retired (2nd and 3rd times, at least), Jordan was, nearly without argument, the greatest basketball player ever. But he was also, definitely without argument, the greatest-marketed athlete ever, hands down. I've started to wonder just how much of his legacy, as I remember it, was remembering Air Jordan versus Michael Jordan, if you catch my drift. 2) Lebron, conversely, has positioned himself and been marketed so poorly (he's never recovered from The Decision, which was meant well but was a horrible and tonedeaf miscalculation, and has been overexposed by modern-day ESPN's oversaturation of James coverage) that he's a villain. Quite honestly, the facts bear out that Jordan was probably a worse human being than James, but when you think of it, don't you kind of hate Lebron and love Jordan? Why is that? Of course, this shouldn't matter, but it has to color your internal thought process a little, right? 3) Probably most importantly, a lot of the actual comparisons I've seen are starting to make me think harder about it, and I really don't think it's fair to say he will "never ever" be better than Jordan. James is in his 15th season, which is the number of total seasons Jordan played (including in Washington). At the very least, I would say it's a debate. If James plays at this level for another 4-5 years and adds another couple championships, it might not even be. Admittedly I haven't looked at this all that hard beyond comparing Bask-Ref pages, so if someone wants to enlighten me to how wrong I am in either direction, feel free. |
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rjp313jr
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 12, 2018 15:48:55 GMT -5
Jordan’s separation is the winning intangible and his ability to raise the level of his teammates. Conversely, LeBron has alienated a lot of groups and seems to use teams up and move on to a better situation. I’ve seen LeBron quit but you never saw that from Jordan. That being said; LeBron at his best is a more dominant force than Jordan at his. It’s hard not to think that Jordan would find a way to use his team to beat LeBron tho.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 12, 2018 17:19:31 GMT -5
Jordan’s separation is the winning intangible and his ability to raise the level of his teammates. Conversely, LeBron has alienated a lot of groups and seems to use teams up and move on to a better situation. I’ve seen LeBron quit but you never saw that from Jordan. That being said; LeBron at his best is a more dominant force than Jordan at his. It’s hard not to think that Jordan would find a way to use his team to beat LeBron tho. Do you have any concrete examples of any of that though? In particular, what's raising the level of his teammates? Who has LeBron "alienated"? When has LeBron quit? Honest questions. Examples worth mentioning here on the Jordan side: His demanding that Isiah Thomas not be on the Dream Team (it's not NBA but it's the kind of thing James would get killed for that Jordan seems to get a pass on). His ruining Kwame Brown. Also, Jordan always had Pippen. He had Grant before his first retirement and Rodman and Kukoc after it. Both played with great supporting casts, at least when they won rings. Meanwhile, is LeBron taking the 06-07 Cavs to the Finals not "raising the level of his teammates?" Isn't a supporting cast of Ilgauskas, Varajao, and Larry Hughes worse than anything Jordan ever had? I definitely don't mean to single you out, but I think the arguments you raised are a lot of the arguments that I feel like you see often and are precisely what I was thinking about when I referred to how the Jordan machine marketed MJ. EDIT: Also, Phil Jackson is light years better than any coach LeBron has ever played for. |
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Post by soxjim on Feb 12, 2018 22:02:29 GMT -5
I don't like either. I believe Jordan is the greatest though. Further, of LBJ, I don't like the characteristic that he gets too content to be a passer/ be the pg. I know this goes against conventional wisdom but Stephen A Smith made a comment a long time ago he thought way back LBJ stopped driving because he was nervous about going to the ft line.
Take a look at that series vs the Mavs. Going into game 6 LBJ averaged 2.2 pts per game in the 4th quarter. Can you ever imagine Jordan doing that? In Games 6 in 09-10 Celts vs Cavs Mo Williams almost took as many shots as LBJ. That's an elimination game. During the season LBJ averaged near 30 ppg while Mo averaged 15.8. Why is "Mo William’s" taking nearly as many shots as LBJ in an elimination game?
IMO that is LBJ's mindset. OFC the last few years he is much, much better than when he was 25. Take a look at the 10-11 series again. LBJ took 59 shots in the last 4 games vs the Mavs. A player of his talent while the games were all extremely close eh only takes 59 considering he is predominantly a 30 ppg scorer? And in games 5 and 6 we has just 1-2 from the ft line in game 5 and 1-4 in game 6. The 1-4 possibly backs up what Stephen A smith said. And it highlights his content to pass especially a lot back then isntead fo looking to score.
Anyhow, no one has had the athleticism to stop him like that. For an all-time great who was previous MVP – something like that shouldn’t happen. He is all-time – can argue he is best ever. I just prefer Jordan and his style of game. I prefer to rely on the scorer- that was Jordan rather than the “point-forward” LBJ who plays like a pg being okay with relying on his teammates more.
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Post by Coreno on Feb 13, 2018 1:10:58 GMT -5
yeah, but... Space Jam.
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rjp313jr
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 13, 2018 8:10:46 GMT -5
Jordan’s separation is the winning intangible and his ability to raise the level of his teammates. Conversely, LeBron has alienated a lot of groups and seems to use teams up and move on to a better situation. I’ve seen LeBron quit but you never saw that from Jordan. That being said; LeBron at his best is a more dominant force than Jordan at his. It’s hard not to think that Jordan would find a way to use his team to beat LeBron tho. Do you have any concrete examples of any of that though? In particular, what's raising the level of his teammates? Who has LeBron "alienated"? When has LeBron quit? Honest questions. Examples worth mentioning here on the Jordan side: His demanding that Isiah Thomas not be on the Dream Team (it's not NBA but it's the kind of thing James would get killed for that Jordan seems to get a pass on). His ruining Kwame Brown. Also, Jordan always had Pippen. He had Grant before his first retirement and Rodman and Kukoc after it. Both played with great supporting casts, at least when they won rings. Meanwhile, is LeBron taking the 06-07 Cavs to the Finals not "raising the level of his teammates?" Isn't a supporting cast of Ilgauskas, Varajao, and Larry Hughes worse than anything Jordan ever had? I definitely don't mean to single you out, but I think the arguments you raised are a lot of the arguments that I feel like you see often and are precisely what I was thinking about when I referred to how the Jordan machine marketed MJ. EDIT: Also, Phil Jackson is light years better than any coach LeBron has ever played for. No they are fair questions but they also highlight to me the issues with going back in history and simply looking at box scores and numbers. The anecdotal evidence matters. Do I have evidence or LeBron quitting? Yes, I’ve watched it happen. His pouting and body language sucks and that wears on people. Go watch the second round series in the 2010 playoffs versus the Celtics. He rolled over. Jordan never does that stuff he’s too competitive. And maybe that’s the word I should use to describe what separates them as it is what drives the other things. Competitiveness. Now this is where these discussions can get off the rails. LeBron is competitive; most NBA players are to a degree (Boogie Cousins maybe not so much), but Jordan was a whole other level competitive. Not in a healthy way either; in an obsessive self-destructive way (off the court any ways), but this is also what separated him on the court. Jordan raising the level of his teammates is talked about all the time by his former teammates and coaches. As far as not letting Isaiah on the Dream Team, that, I feel, supports my argument. He hated him because of his competitiveness and that they were rivals. Back then these guys weren’t buddies. LeBron has had lousy coaches in Cleveland but Spolstra is a very good coach. Not Phil Jackson but a very good coach. However, very strong arguments can be made that young LeBron never gave Cleveland a chance to build the right team around him. LeBron’s physical tools are the best the NBA has ever seen and he’s great with them. He does work hard but he’s not obsessive like Jordan was. My final judgement comes down to the fact that if I had to start a team with a young Jordan or young LeBron, I take Jordan because he’s got that unmatched competitiveness. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 13, 2018 19:17:13 GMT -5
At the risk of a tangent (that maybe should go in its own thread), I've started to come around on this. Consider the following: 1) Yes, at the time he retired (2nd and 3rd times, at least), Jordan was, nearly without argument, the greatest basketball player ever. But he was also, definitely without argument, the greatest-marketed athlete ever, hands down. I've started to wonder just how much of his legacy, as I remember it, was remembering Air Jordan versus Michael Jordan, if you catch my drift. 2) Lebron, conversely, has positioned himself and been marketed so poorly (he's never recovered from The Decision, which was meant well but was a horrible and tonedeaf miscalculation, and has been overexposed by modern-day ESPN's oversaturation of James coverage) that he's a villain. Quite honestly, the facts bear out that Jordan was probably a worse human being than James, but when you think of it, don't you kind of hate Lebron and love Jordan? Why is that? Of course, this shouldn't matter, but it has to color your internal thought process a little, right? 3) Probably most importantly, a lot of the actual comparisons I've seen are starting to make me think harder about it, and I really don't think it's fair to say he will "never ever" be better than Jordan. James is in his 15th season, which is the number of total seasons Jordan played (including in Washington). At the very least, I would say it's a debate. If James plays at this level for another 4-5 years and adds another couple championships, it might not even be. Admittedly I haven't looked at this all that hard beyond comparing Bask-Ref pages, so if someone wants to enlighten me to how wrong I am in either direction, feel free. Sorry Chris, I don't think Lebron is even close to Jordan. Of course Jordan had insane marketing as he was the right guy at the right time, but that's mostly because of their personalities. Jordan looked like a psychopath that you would not want to mess with, Lebron is just an insecure mostly everyday dude. You could chat with Lebron about which of the Evangelion girls was his waifu, Jordan would murder you for even bringing that stuff up. In a way, this should have made Lebron more approachable, but his attempt to further his legacy is so blatant that it's really hard to connect there. Like you said, they have now spent the same amount of time in the league and during that time, Jordan won 6 titles and you just know he could have won 8 in a row if baseball wasn't the best sport in the world. Lebron won 3, lost 5 and that's mostly hopping around franchises to team up with superstars. Yeah Jordan had Pippen and great teams, so did Lebron. Jordan won 6, Lebron won 3. 6-0, no less, Lebron has a negative record in the Finals. It’s not like we’re comparing Brady’s 5-3 to Montana’s 4-0, it’s quite a significant difference. Which brings me to my next point. There's a reason nobody in their right mind considers Wilt Chamberlain as the GOAT. He had the best career in terms of statistic of all time, it's seriously ridiculous and way above anything Jordan and Lebron ever did. But he wasn't truly a champion. So much about war and subsequently about sports is about the epic narrative, it's about the champion. Consider the Iliad for instance. It could be just a battle between the top Troy, Hector, and the top greek, Achilles, and you could measure their strengths and weakness and stuff. However, that would be boring, so Homer got Hector to kill Patroclus setting up a revenge plot by Achilles, which added some badly needed drama. Because it is always about drama. When you watch Federer and Nadal you're watching not a tennis match, but the story between them. When you compare basketball players, you have to consider the narrative. Jordan won 6 titles basically in a row and there’s a very good chance he would have won 8. Lebron doesn’t have that. He will never have that. Their stats are somewhat similar, Lebron’s are a bit better but it’s close enough that you can’t justify giving the edge to James. And about quitting, come on, on the Delonte saga Lebron quit his team hard. Also, in that Finals against Dallas he was guarded by JJ Barea at times, if the Mavs tried to do that with Jordan he’d create a black hole that would destroy us all for the sheer audacity. So yeah, a lot of the reasons for Jordan to be considered better than Lebron are based on the imaginary. He has a perfect record in the Finals. He was God disguised as Michael Jordan. When Michael is driving his kids to school, he thinks it's Game 7. People can’t believe he hit that shot and they don’t know how he stayed in the air that long. Lebron is one of the best basketball players of all time, but Jordan IS basketball. It is not close at all. Tl;dr: Jordan and Lebron are insanely great, both played in great teams, Jordan won more, Lebron isn’t nearly as accomplished. Lebron is closer to Magic than he is to Jordan. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 14, 2018 9:45:43 GMT -5
In my opinion LeBron struggles with how to impact games. He can struggle with being a scorer or passer, when he should be both. Just look at the Celtics game, that was LeBron at his best, scoring at will, getting teammates involved and playing great D. Thing is you don't always see that LeBron. LeBron is the most talented player I've ever seen play. He is way more talented than Jordan, yet it doesn't always show. He goes on stretches were he just scores or just passes. He'll play so so D to conserve energy to score. Maybe it's unfair to LeBron, but the guy is a walking tripple double. Jordan never gave less than 110% and always new his role.
LeBron is also his own worst enemy. Not even talking about the decision. Those Cavs teams were hand picked by him, he demanded those players. The Cavs gave up developing young talent because LeBron wanted Vets. Then left because they didn't have young talent and he couldn't make it work with the guys he wanted. Maybe I just don't remember, but Jordan never complained to the Media every year how his team needed more. Jordan made it work every year. Jordan never forced a trade for an old Korver, when a young talent would have been much better in the long-run. Jordan never jumped ship every chance he got to go to a new team that had more talent.
Heck when the Cavs beat the Warriors I felt LeBron was Pippen and Irving was the go to scorer. That's the thing about LeBron, he seems to enjoy playing second fiddle as long as he gets his stats. Jordan wanted and lived for carrying his team. He wanted the pressure of winning the game and taking that last shot. Maybe I'm wrong, but put Jordan in LeBrons body and I think he does more. Watching Jordan he got the most out of his talents, I don't always feel that way about LeBron.
If I had to pick a young LeBron or Jordan to start a team, I pick Jordan every time and I actually hate Jordan.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 14, 2018 14:28:35 GMT -5
Don just used the Iliad to make a point. I'm not even going to try to come back to that. lol
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 14, 2018 22:33:39 GMT -5
Don just used the Iliad to make a point. I'm not even going to try to come back to that. lol LOL everything is about the drama, sports are just dudes running around when you take the narrative away from it. And Jordan's narrative is pristine, Lebron might be a bit better but it's a very slight difference if there's any so it's tough to justify picking him over MJ. But you know, there are people who probably think Hector could have won that fight... |
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