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4/2-4/3 Red Sox @ Marlins Series Thread
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Post by Don Caballero on Apr 2, 2018 21:30:31 GMT -5
So, this isn't a shot at you at all, but I think we've gotten so accustomed to relievers not being allowed to give up runs that we get panicky when they do. Walden allowing four runs in two innings is (at least in a vacuum) a better outcome than them using another reliever. If the goal is to maximize Walden's ERA, they should get him out, but if the goal is to win both tonight and in future nights, having the back-end relievers give up runs in additional innings of work in a game without it changing the outcome is the best way to optimize the 'pen. That's reasonable and for sure that's the plan Cora had and I don't really have a problem with that. I only have a small issue on this specific situation because Walden looked bad in the 8th and bad in the 9th, so there was a chance he wouldn't be able to get the outs he needed and we'd have to warm and eventually use Kimbrel in case of a massive calamity which was not ideal. But yeah it worked and rationally it makes sense, so it's all good.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Apr 2, 2018 21:32:06 GMT -5
I don't know how anxiety problems have to do with anything in Game 5 of a season where you're looking to get a extra inning out of a pitcher. He's not going to break down because the Sox sent him out for the 7th tonight. Injuries have higher probability for pitcher if fatigued and in the basepaths. I think Cora looked at both being in play and said no Thanks, have a seat. I would have liked to have Brian swinging away all game but it obviously wasn't in the plan so I can't argue with the decision. I never argued the decision until it was brought back up. I mentioned how Johnson battled in the 6th and that's the reason why he was ultimately pulled.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Apr 2, 2018 21:34:00 GMT -5
Hey this is working well - my Sox Win jinx is to watch part of a movie, tune in the game half over, stay off this site - and they win! Seriously, this is a fine start to 2018 - amazing pitching, awakening bats....feeling really good about how things are beginning. Let's keep it rolling! (happy about so many aspects of this game...very happy for Johnson!)
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Post by johnmark on Apr 2, 2018 21:36:01 GMT -5
The question is with the starters coming back, what will the Sox decide If Velazquez and Johnson continue to pitch Well?
Velazquez has option right? That is the easy one.
With Johnson do you really put him in the bullpen when he has never pitched out of the pen? Possible trade if his value is there?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Apr 2, 2018 21:38:17 GMT -5
I don't know how anxiety problems have to do with anything in Game 5 of a season where you're looking to get a extra inning out of a pitcher. He's not going to break down because the Sox sent him out for the 7th tonight. No, pitching him an extra inning in one game isn't going to make a difference. But judging by your other posts, and some of the responses to you from other posters, it seems that you would like to see that extra inning or two more often than not. Pushing players every now and then is great. Doing it more often than not is not. That is especially true of someone who suffers from anxiety, where one thing can set off that anxiety and cripple you for a while. Yeah, I mean this could be a one time thing with Johnson where you could have pushed him against a bad Marlins team. He wasn't and it ultimately didn't matter, but it's not like I'm pushing every player all the time. It's a case by case basis. This is the time to push though. Time to win. You got 2 years and 2 great shots at winning it all.
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Post by patford on Apr 2, 2018 21:38:50 GMT -5
I like Cora sticking with Walden. Walden was getting squeezed pretty bad and he held it together. You see some pitchers get rattled and annoyed and totally melt down. Walden kept doing his thing and limited the damage.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Apr 2, 2018 21:43:13 GMT -5
The question is with the starters coming back, what will the Sox decide If Velazquez and Johnson continue to pitch Well? Velazquez has option right? That is the easy one. With Johnson do you really put him in the bullpen when he has never pitched out of the pen? Possible trade if his value is there? Embarrassment of riches potentially, but you know injuries happen. No options - Wright, Johnson 2 options - Velazquez, ERod, Smith, Walden 3 options - Poyner Pomeranz, Wright, and ERod all back eventually. Will be interesting to see how they play things, especially if things continue to go well.
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Post by soxjim on Apr 2, 2018 21:47:59 GMT -5
The question is with the starters coming back, what will the Sox decide If Velazquez and Johnson continue to pitch Well? Velazquez has option right? That is the easy one. With Johnson do you really put him in the bullpen when he has never pitched out of the pen? Possible trade if his value is there? Keep him in the pen. Some games Sale or Price will get bombed too. After the 3rd inning take them out. For example the games he got crushed vs Cleveland and the Yanks. Bring in a guy like BJ. Starers get hurt or worn down. Unless a team trades us good value, -- keep him. I'm concerned about Sale and Price and Pomeranz wearing down. Plus ERod has yet to picth a lot of innings. IMO SOx need other starters.
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Post by johnmark on Apr 2, 2018 21:49:57 GMT -5
The question is with the starters coming back, what will the Sox decide If Velazquez and Johnson continue to pitch Well? Velazquez has option right? That is the easy one. With Johnson do you really put him in the bullpen when he has never pitched out of the pen? Possible trade if his value is there? Embarrassment of riches potentially, but you know injuries happen. No options - Wright, Johnson 2 options - Velazquez, ERod, Smith, Walden 3 options - Poyner Pomeranz, Wright, and ERod all back eventually. Will be interesting to see how they play things, especially if things continue to go well. Not a fan of Wright. I think Erod has the goods. He and Pomeranz are a given if healthy.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Apr 2, 2018 21:51:36 GMT -5
The question is with the starters coming back, what will the Sox decide If Velazquez and Johnson continue to pitch Well? Velazquez has option right? That is the easy one. With Johnson do you really put him in the bullpen when he has never pitched out of the pen? Possible trade if his value is there? Embarrassment of riches potentially, but you know injuries happen. No options - Wright, Johnson 2 options - Velazquez, ERod, Smith, Walden 3 options - Poyner Pomeranz, Wright, and ERod all back eventually. Will be interesting to see how they play things, especially if things continue to go well. When Pomeranz and Eduardo comes back soon, the decision is easy. You send down Walden and Velazquez or Poyner. The interesting decision is what the heck do they do with Wright? Jim brought it up, but do you really allow 2 long relievers in the bullpen in Johnson and Wright if there's no injuries? What is Wright after all these injuries too? I imagine he'll get a long rehab process. Not to mention Thornburg who is a month away. Ultimately the Sox are probably going to lose one of Johnson or Wright if the rotation stays healthy. If they don't, then they may manage to keep both all season until September.
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Post by johnmark on Apr 2, 2018 21:56:28 GMT -5
I would wager that Johnson has more trade value.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Apr 2, 2018 21:56:32 GMT -5
With Johnson do you really put him in the bullpen when he has never pitched out of the pen? Possible trade if his value is there? I don't think Johnson will fetch much in a trade. He's probably one of those guys that is much more valuable giving you innings versus what he's valued in a trade. Johnson has no major league track record, below average velocity, and durability issues. That isn't going to get you anything. You keep him and try to maximize him.
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Post by johnmark on Apr 2, 2018 21:59:53 GMT -5
With Johnson do you really put him in the bullpen when he has never pitched out of the pen? Possible trade if his value is there? I don't think Johnson will fetch much in a trade. He's probably one of those guys that is much more valuable giving you innings versus what he's valued in a trade. Johnson has no major league track record, below average velocity, and durability issues. That isn't going to get you anything. You keep him and try to maximize him. He might not fetch much but I would guess he might fetch more than Wright. I might be wrong but a knuckleballer with only 1 good year, injury history and character questions.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Apr 2, 2018 22:03:51 GMT -5
I don't think Johnson will fetch much in a trade. He's probably one of those guys that is much more valuable giving you innings versus what he's valued in a trade. Johnson has no major league track record, below average velocity, and durability issues. That isn't going to get you anything. You keep him and try to maximize him. He might not fetch much but I would guess he might fetch more than Wright. I might be wrong but a knuckleballer with only 1 good year, injury history and character questions. He'll definitely fetch more than Wright. He's younger and has more team control. That isn't the reason why you keep one over the other though. Ultimately, neither is worth all that much. You keep the best player for your team and that's what ultimately wins ballgames for you. If Wright has to be traded for a PTBNL because he is getting blown up in his rehab process and isn't getting results, while Johnson is up in Boston and performing, then you keep Johnson. Edit- The interesting decision comes if Wright is performing in AAA and pushes down there.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Apr 2, 2018 22:13:15 GMT -5
The other interesting aspect of the Johnson versus Wright debate is that if Johnson goes to bullpen, then he has to stay in the bullpen. He couldn't be turned back into a starter if he was put in the bullpen. You can't option him down to build his innings back up.
Wright on the other hand could probably easily go from the bullpen to the rotation within the snap of a finger. The lack of stress on a knucklballer's arm allows him to do that.
So it's a interesting debate and question either way. Injuries might force the issue and it doesn't become a problem however.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 2, 2018 22:37:53 GMT -5
5 for 5 in strong starting pitching performances. The Sox definitely have the best #7 and #8 starters in the league.
Johnson looked really solid out there.
Hanley is acting like he's serious about being a 30-30 guy. Guess he wants Cora to treat him to dinner.
Cora is doing a good job of utilizing his entire roster. Of course playing the Marlins and Rays allows you the luxury of that, but he does have the pieces and he is using them.
I'm curious about when Betts and Bogaerts, especially Bogaerts will get a rest and I'm curious who his SS will be, whether it's Holt or Nunez.
I'm also curious about how he's going to continue to get Swihart more time. If I'm not mistaken, he has started one game at 3b, DHed one game and pinch-hit tonight.
I worry about the bullpen but the rotation, lineup, and bench is pretty strong.
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Post by jackiebradleyjrjr on Apr 2, 2018 22:51:27 GMT -5
The other interesting aspect of the Johnson versus Wright debate is that if Johnson goes to bullpen, then he has to stay in the bullpen. He couldn't be turned back into a starter if he was put in the bullpen. You can't option him down to build his innings back up. Wright on the other hand could probably easily go from the bullpen to the rotation within the snap of a finger. The lack of stress on a knucklballer's arm allows him to do that. So it's a interesting debate and question either way. Injuries might force the issue and it doesn't become a problem however. I just don’t see this being a major issue at all. And absent a really sweet trade offer, I wouldn’t trade anyone. I see Wright and Johnson as much more than long relievers. I see them both as bulllen guys that can go multiple innings per outing, which saves the arms of the rest of the bullpen. So if we have two bullpen guys that can go 2 plus innings per outing, that’s a tremendous asset. As far as keeping their arms stretched for possible return to the rotation, I remember Wright saying it’s not a big deal for him to throw 80 plus pitches— even when he’s in the bullpen. Plus we’d have Velazquez in AAA if we wanted to go that route. It’s a great “problem” to have.
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Post by voiceofreason on Apr 3, 2018 4:37:38 GMT -5
Another take on the trade value of what currently seems like a surplus of starters is that there is always next year to think about. Hopefully Pomeranz pitches so well that he is gone to a team for big money the Sox can't match. I look at the numbers that Velazquez and Johnson have put up at AAA and am not surprised that they can succeed at the MLB level.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Apr 3, 2018 6:35:58 GMT -5
The other interesting aspect of the Johnson versus Wright debate is that if Johnson goes to bullpen, then he has to stay in the bullpen. He couldn't be turned back into a starter if he was put in the bullpen. You can't option him down to build his innings back up. Wright on the other hand could probably easily go from the bullpen to the rotation within the snap of a finger. The lack of stress on a knucklballer's arm allows him to do that. So it's a interesting debate and question either way. Injuries might force the issue and it doesn't become a problem however. I just don’t see this being a major issue at all. And absent a really sweet trade offer, I wouldn’t trade anyone. I see Wright and Johnson as much more than long relievers. I see them both as bulllen guys that can go multiple innings per outing, which saves the arms of the rest of the bullpen. So if we have two bullpen guys that can go 2 plus innings per outing, that’s a tremendous asset. As far as keeping their arms stretched for possible return to the rotation, I remember Wright saying it’s not a big deal for him to throw 80 plus pitches— even when he’s in the bullpen. Plus we’d have Velazquez in AAA if we wanted to go that route. It’s a great “problem” to have. Pretty soon you're going to have in the bullpen- Hembree Barnes Kimbrel Thornburg Kelly Johnson Wright Smith That is 8 pitchers for 7 spots. One bad injury either in the bullpen or rotation will allow you go keep all 8 pitchers, but in 2 months you're going to have to make a decision if everyone is healthy. The only guy that has options on this list is Barnes and he's one of your better relievers. I wouldn't be opposed to trading Kelly. That is maybe the one guy that another team could overvalue and you get a nice A ball prospect with potential for.
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Post by jimed14 on Apr 3, 2018 7:03:30 GMT -5
I wonder if they'll consider going to a 6 man rotation with Johnson.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Apr 3, 2018 7:42:38 GMT -5
I wonder if they'll consider going to a 6 man rotation with Johnson. If you go with a 6 man rotation, you'd either have to carry a 13 man pitching staff, or you'd need to carry a 6 man bullpen (which is tough to do, especially with not a lot of arms in your bullpen with options). If you carry a 13 man staff, you're talking about trading Leon at the catching position. It kind of irritates me that the players union wouldn't sign off on a 26 man roster this past CBA. This all could have been fixed by having a extra roster spot available all season.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 3, 2018 7:43:26 GMT -5
Because. He. Was. Unavailable. Due. To. Fatigue. Yet. He. Wasn't. With. The. Mets. Do you think it’s easier to pitch 3 days in a row the first time versus the second, third and fourth times over the course of a baseball season? This isn’t a video game where once your energy is restored it keeps lasting the same about of time.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Apr 3, 2018 7:45:13 GMT -5
Yet. He. Wasn't. With. The. Mets. Do you think it’s easier to pitch 3 days in a row the first time versus the second, third and fourth times over the course of a baseball season? This isn’t a video game where once your energy is restored it keeps lasting the same about of time. I just personally think Reed has a rubber arm. He's very durable and capable of pitching more, not less. I don't want to keep talking about this however.
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Post by James Dunne on Apr 3, 2018 7:47:07 GMT -5
Yet. He. Wasn't. With. The. Mets. Do you think it’s easier to pitch 3 days in a row the first time versus the second, third and fourth times over the course of a baseball season? This isn’t a video game where once your energy is restored it keeps lasting the same about of time. Nah man, once someone pitches three days in a row they can do it again an infinite number of times. No orb-hurler would ever be more fatigued in August than May. And if he is saying he is then he's lying. And he's a free agent, so even if he's not lying and he breaks he's not our problem! -Signed, logic.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Apr 3, 2018 7:55:27 GMT -5
Yeap, Reed is perfectly capable of pitching 3 days in a row 4 or 5 times in a season. That is what his track record indicates and it's not the Sox problem if he breaks down after he leaves.
I'll stand by it.
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