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4/5-4/8 Red Sox vs. Rays Series Thread
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Post by Oregon Norm on Apr 6, 2018 9:16:38 GMT -5
Reran the game since I got busy about halfway through. My first impression of Poyner was clearly wrong. He spots his pitches really well and his stuff plays up. Hopefully the magic continues. This, boys and girls, is why I'm not a professional scout!
Everybody needs to strap in as the good times are likely to be a little harder to come by. NY and LA are on the horizon so we need to take a deep breath.
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Post by James Dunne on Apr 6, 2018 9:25:26 GMT -5
And it's worth noting with Poyner that the homer he allowed was to a right-handed hitter (Gomez).
9 of the 17 batters Poyner has faced have been left-handed, so credit to him for getting his job done and to Cora for putting him in a position to succeed. Lefties are 1 for 8 with four strikeouts (a sacrifice bunt is the additional BF), righties are 2 for 8 with the homer and two strikeouts. Somewhere, Fernandeo Abad sobs wistfully.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Apr 6, 2018 10:19:08 GMT -5
And it's worth noting with Poyner that the homer he allowed was to a right-handed hitter (Gomez). 9 of the 17 batters Poyner has faced have been left-handed, so credit to him for getting his job done and to Cora for putting him in a position to succeed. Lefties are 1 for 8 with four strikeouts (a sacrifice bunt is the additional BF), righties are 2 for 8 with the homer and two strikeouts. Somewhere, Fernandeo Abad sobs wistfully. Poyner reminds me of the remake of Craig Breslow when he was young and good.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 6, 2018 10:48:35 GMT -5
And it's worth noting with Poyner that the homer he allowed was to a right-handed hitter (Gomez). 9 of the 17 batters Poyner has faced have been left-handed, so credit to him for getting his job done and to Cora for putting him in a position to succeed. Lefties are 1 for 8 with four strikeouts (a sacrifice bunt is the additional BF), righties are 2 for 8 with the homer and two strikeouts. Somewhere, Fernandeo Abad sobs wistfully. Poyner reminds me of the remake of Craig Breslow when he was young and good. Funny you mentioned Craig Breslow, the 2013 edition, I'm assuming. That's exactly the pitcher that came to mind when thinking of Poyner. Not overpowering, precise with his pitches, or at least Breslow was that season until he tired out in the World Series.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 6, 2018 10:53:02 GMT -5
The bolded part was my point. Considering that in the future they also need to plan on a significant raise for Sale and continuing significant arbitration raises, I have a hard time imagining that they'll even try to re-sign Pomeranz if Price gets through this season healthy. If Porcello isn't a disaster and Rodriguez's knee surgery works in correcting his issues, it'll be really hard to justify paying Pomeranz too. It comes down to the fact that there are a LOT more moving parts on this roster in the next few years than a single contract given the number of guys they have in arbitration. EDIT: On the Swihart point you made, there is zero indication that he will hit enough to justify starting every day at a position other than catcher. I find it very hard to believe that a team with Hanley at first base in 2019 will be worse than a team starting Blake Swihart in an outfield corner (by the way, the move would pretty obviously be to play Swihart in left field if he's playing in an outfield with Betts and Benintendi). Regarding your statement about Pomeranz not being resigned if Price gets through the season healthy. If Price gets through the season healthy, he very may well opt out if his contract. So the Red Sox will be stuck trying to replace 40% of the rotation. Or is your suggestion that if Price gets through the season healthy, then opts out, resigning him should be the bigger priority? As stated by others above, I don't think there's any chance Price opts out. This rings particularly true if you believe the reporting that the Red Sox were the ones who wanted to give him the opt-out (in order to give him less cash), rather than him asking for it. I'm assuming that the Red Sox won't commit to four members of the rotation on long-term, big money deals. I assume Price isn't going anywhere, and re-signing Sale after 2019 is priority 1. They'll have one more year of Porcello at $21M. Rodriguez hits arbitration next year so he'll get a nice little raise. I understand the inclination to look at next year's big free agents (Kimbrel and Pomeranz) and evaluate the team's decisions through the lens of those two and the Hanley situation. However, the vacuum needed for that to be a worthwhile exercise ignores arbitration raises and the rest of the team's long-term contract situation. I think the simplest way to approach next offseason for the Red Sox is to let Pomeranz walk, prioritize re-signing Kimbrel (if they don't it's not like they aren't going to have to just bring someone else in, so you may as well stick with him), and enter 2019 with Sale-Price-Porcello-Rodriguez as the first four, with one of Johnson, Wright, Velazquez, or some other internal option (Beeks? Shepherd? Shawaryn?) as the number 5. The other option requires them getting creative in a way that I can't even foresee right now. Given that Hanley, if he stays, only does so for one more season means that I really don't see it affecting what the team does in terms of re-signing free agents (or signing someone else's). Now, if Hanley leaves, perhaps that opens the door for a trade I'm not foreseeing for a player on a one- or two-year deal or something, but I'm not even sure who that player is.
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Post by jimed14 on Apr 6, 2018 10:56:37 GMT -5
From a pure payroll perspective, Kimbrel shouldn't require a huge raise over what he's making now ($13 million). Maybe another $4-5 million. A qualifying offer for both he and Pomeranz are a given barring injury.
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Post by incandenza on Apr 6, 2018 12:19:37 GMT -5
You can write off this excellence as the Red Sox facing inferior competition, but they are dominating in a way that would be unrealistic to expect. I would add that, though it is a small sample size, the more extreme the result the more meaningful even a SSS data point can be. For instance, it's probably not a coincidence that it was a Maddux/Glavine/Smoltz Braves team that was the last to accomplish the feat.
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Post by soxjim on Apr 6, 2018 12:31:40 GMT -5
Regarding your statement about Pomeranz not being resigned if Price gets through the season healthy. If Price gets through the season healthy, he very may well opt out if his contract. So the Red Sox will be stuck trying to replace 40% of the rotation. Or is your suggestion that if Price gets through the season healthy, then opts out, resigning him should be the bigger priority? As stated by others above, I don't think there's any chance Price opts out. This rings particularly true if you believe the reporting that the Red Sox were the ones who wanted to give him the opt-out (in order to give him less cash), rather than him asking for it. I'm assuming that the Red Sox won't commit to four members of the rotation on long-term, big money deals. I assume Price isn't going anywhere, and re-signing Sale after 2019 is priority 1. They'll have one more year of Porcello at $21M. Rodriguez hits arbitration next year so he'll get a nice little raise. I understand the inclination to look at next year's big free agents (Kimbrel and Pomeranz) and evaluate the team's decisions through the lens of those two and the Hanley situation. However, the vacuum needed for that to be a worthwhile exercise ignores arbitration raises and the rest of the team's long-term contract situation. I think the simplest way to approach next offseason for the Red Sox is to let Pomeranz walk, prioritize re-signing Kimbrel (if they don't it's not like they aren't going to have to just bring someone else in, so you may as well stick with him), and enter 2019 with Sale-Price-Porcello-Rodriguez as the first four, with one of Johnson, Wright, Velazquez, or some other internal option (Beeks? Shepherd? Shawaryn?) as the number 5. The other option requires them getting creative in a way that I can't even foresee right now. Given that Hanley, if he stays, only does so for one more season means that I really don't see it affecting what the team does in terms of re-signing free agents (or signing someone else's). Now, if Hanley leaves, perhaps that opens the door for a trade I'm not foreseeing for a player on a one- or two-year deal or something, but I'm not even sure who that player is. I'm more hopeful they don't have to resign Kimbrel. During the KC Royals 2 year run I believed the relievers were under-valued. I think now they are over-valued. Hopefully this season we can have just one other reliever show something enough that he can be a closer. In terms of quality, I'm also concerned about ERod - I'm hopeful he is fine. While he looks good when he is healthy - I'd want to see him show consistency this season while he pitches a decent amount of innings and remain healthy. I think as of right now there is too much risk to not try to sign Pomeranz. OFC that can change. If Pomeranz is our 2nd best pitcher again like last year then I'd definitely try to sign him. If he is good like he was last year, unless most the other starters are real good too (or he is mediocre and they are mediocre) in which he is redundant then I can see it. There are still issues with Price's arm and Porcello's quality. Along with as metnioend above ERod's health along with his quality. Being "cheap" isn't "enough." I realize there are issues with Pomeranz's arm too but if he had a year like last year, and other pitches don't perform, the Sox imo got to sign him. And for next year - I'd consider to let JBJ walk especially if Hanley produces. And if Hanley doesn't produce then you'd have his money to account for arbitration and raises. Guys such as Kelly and Holt and possibly Leon will be gone. So I think the arbitration and raises can be covered especially when you consider on the fa market you had a Neal Walker type go for $4m. Anyhow, most important, you don't need stars at every position.
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Post by soxjim on Apr 6, 2018 12:39:06 GMT -5
From a pure payroll perspective, Kimbrel shouldn't require a huge raise over what he's making now ($13 million). Maybe another $4-5 million. A qualifying offer for both he and Pomeranz are a given barring injury. Kimbrel will want $20m won't he? Next year Jensen is making $19m. Wade Davis is making $18m in 2019.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 6, 2018 13:05:12 GMT -5
And for next year - I'd consider to let JBJ walk especially if Hanley produces. And if Hanley doesn't produce then you'd have his money to account for arbitration and raises. Guys such as Kelly and Holt and possibly Leon will be gone. So I think the arbitration and raises can be covered especially when you consider on the fa market you had a Neal Walker type go for $4m. Anyhow, most important, you don't need stars at every position. Let JBJ walk where? He's got two more years of arb.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 9,016
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Post by ericmvan on Apr 6, 2018 13:18:33 GMT -5
Tomorrow will be interesting, with Porcello starting for the Sox and Pomeranz quite possibly going for Pawtucket on his regular turn after pitching Monday. That would make either of them an option for game 3 of the Yankees series.
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Post by soxjim on Apr 6, 2018 13:33:29 GMT -5
And for next year - I'd consider to let JBJ walk especially if Hanley produces. And if Hanley doesn't produce then you'd have his money to account for arbitration and raises. Guys such as Kelly and Holt and possibly Leon will be gone. So I think the arbitration and raises can be covered especially when you consider on the fa market you had a Neal Walker type go for $4m. Anyhow, most important, you don't need stars at every position. Let JBJ walk where? He's got two more years of arb. Do whatever I'd have to to keep a guy like Pomeranz if he has a year like he did last year or close to it. I don't believe the 2016 JBJ will happen again. Trade JBJ.
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Post by Canseco on Apr 6, 2018 14:06:02 GMT -5
You know what JBJ of 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, and beyond produces? Truly elite up-the-middle defense, which is something any baseball man deeply values. I’d more be looking to extend Bradley on a reasonably team-friendly deal. Preventing runs matters, too, and the guy has a bit of pop out of the 8/9 hole to go with that skill.
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Post by soxjim on Apr 6, 2018 15:11:52 GMT -5
You know what JBJ of 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, and beyond produces? Truly elite up-the-middle defense, which is something any baseball man deeply values. I’d more be looking to extend Bradley on a reasonably team-friendly deal. Preventing runs matters, too, and the guy has a bit of pop out of the 8/9 hole to go with that skill. Will an aging JBJ produce the same? He'll be 28 in 2 weeks. Once he hits 30- is he still going to be "elite" defensively ie still have the same range factor? He won't eb sub par. But elite? I'm getting away from the thread topic but I'll just add then let it go- in order to get value you have to give up value. Beni and Betts can "man" the OF well enough with another sub-par outfielder. If I'm getting more WAR from the SP, then in that case--> why not ? And the way I see it- "the current baseball man" seems to value the WAR type metrics. As a result, if Pomz or similar has a higher WAR - then I think many baseball men will look hard at taking the higher WAR. I can't get into this any further - otherwise we'll take over the thread. I just wanted to make a point that I'm extremely interested in signing Pomeranz next year - ofc he has to do well this year etc - lots of factors involved. **I won't address this topic any more on this thread.
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Post by soxfanatic on Apr 6, 2018 15:18:56 GMT -5
I believe this was posted by someone, but Hector Velazquez' fastball velo is up three miles compared to last season. That really bodes well for his succes.
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Post by p23w on Apr 6, 2018 15:19:29 GMT -5
Tomorrow will be interesting, with Porcello starting for the Sox and Pomeranz quite possibly going for Pawtucket on his regular turn after pitching Monday. That would make either of them an option for game 3 of the Yankees series. Seriously doubt the Sox would throw 3 lefties in a row against that line up.
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Post by jimed14 on Apr 6, 2018 16:54:19 GMT -5
Tomorrow will be interesting, with Porcello starting for the Sox and Pomeranz quite possibly going for Pawtucket on his regular turn after pitching Monday. That would make either of them an option for game 3 of the Yankees series. Seriously doubt the Sox would throw 3 lefties in a row against that line up. They have 4 lefties in the starting rotation so they'll probably do it all year.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Apr 6, 2018 20:52:30 GMT -5
You know what JBJ of 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, and beyond produces? Truly elite up-the-middle defense, which is something any baseball man deeply values. I’d more be looking to extend Bradley on a reasonably team-friendly deal. Preventing runs matters, too, and the guy has a bit of pop out of the 8/9 hole to go with that skill. The Sox need to make decisions though and JBJ is one of the oldest out of the Sale, Mookie, Xander, and Xander group. It stinks, but it's just impossible to keep them all. Out of Xander and JBJ, it's a tough call, but finding a CF is a lot easier when you have 2 players in house that can play CF on your team.
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Post by rangoon82 on Apr 6, 2018 23:09:22 GMT -5
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Post by swingingbunt on Apr 7, 2018 0:28:25 GMT -5
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Apr 7, 2018 0:29:47 GMT -5
My best guess and I think it's a really good guess I think is that the "L" stands for Lydia. As in Lydia Kimbrel. Lol nevermind, it's after a videogame as swinging bunt showed.
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Post by voiceofreason on Apr 7, 2018 7:31:22 GMT -5
And it's worth noting with Poyner that the homer he allowed was to a right-handed hitter (Gomez). 9 of the 17 batters Poyner has faced have been left-handed, so credit to him for getting his job done and to Cora for putting him in a position to succeed. Lefties are 1 for 8 with four strikeouts (a sacrifice bunt is the additional BF), righties are 2 for 8 with the homer and two strikeouts. Somewhere, Fernandeo Abad sobs wistfully. Poyner and Johnson. Both from U of Florida Both have below average velocity Both have high floors and low ceilings ... maybe Both succeed by pounding the zone on the corners with some deception Both are going to contribute to the Sox this year, hopefully a lot.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 7, 2018 10:00:36 GMT -5
You know what JBJ of 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, and beyond produces? Truly elite up-the-middle defense, which is something any baseball man deeply values. I’d more be looking to extend Bradley on a reasonably team-friendly deal. Preventing runs matters, too, and the guy has a bit of pop out of the 8/9 hole to go with that skill. Will an aging JBJ produce the same? He'll be 28 in 2 weeks. Once he hits 30- is he still going to be "elite" defensively ie still have the same range factor? He won't eb sub par. But elite? I'm getting away from the thread topic but I'll just add then let it go- in order to get value you have to give up value. Beni and Betts can "man" the OF well enough with another sub-par outfielder. If I'm getting more WAR from the SP, then in that case--> why not ? And the way I see it- "the current baseball man" seems to value the WAR type metrics. As a result, if Pomz or similar has a higher WAR - then I think many baseball men will look hard at taking the higher WAR. I can't get into this any further - otherwise we'll take over the thread. I just wanted to make a point that I'm extremely interested in signing Pomeranz next year - ofc he has to do well this year etc - lots of factors involved. **I won't address this topic any more on this thread. Just for the record: JBJ is younger than Pomeranz JBJ has achieved higher WAR numbers than Pomeranz in the past JBJ is projected to have higher WAR numbers than Pomeranz in the future JBJ is not a pitcher with a sketchy UCL situation And as a side note, women work in baseball ops too, so feel free to drop the "baseball men" thing.
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Post by soxjim on Apr 7, 2018 11:03:00 GMT -5
Will an aging JBJ produce the same? He'll be 28 in 2 weeks. Once he hits 30- is he still going to be "elite" defensively ie still have the same range factor? He won't eb sub par. But elite? I'm getting away from the thread topic but I'll just add then let it go- in order to get value you have to give up value. Beni and Betts can "man" the OF well enough with another sub-par outfielder. If I'm getting more WAR from the SP, then in that case--> why not ? And the way I see it- "the current baseball man" seems to value the WAR type metrics. As a result, if Pomz or similar has a higher WAR - then I think many baseball men will look hard at taking the higher WAR. I can't get into this any further - otherwise we'll take over the thread. I just wanted to make a point that I'm extremely interested in signing Pomeranz next year - ofc he has to do well this year etc - lots of factors involved. **I won't address this topic any more on this thread. Just for the record: JBJ is younger than Pomeranz JBJ has achieved higher WAR numbers than Pomeranz in the past JBJ is projected to have higher WAR numbers than Pomeranz in the future JBJ is not a pitcher with a sketchy UCL situation And as a side note, women work in baseball ops too, so feel free to drop the "baseball men" thing. I don't usually read your posts because I often find you are rude and obnoxious and when you don't agree with someone you remain blind to alternate views. Yet in this case I I take offense to your reply to me. Why don't you read what the poster Canseco said before openly criticizing me for implying that I'm a sexist. It was the other poster that started with baseball men. I replied in kind --it was not to offend women. OFC you ignored his post because you agreed with your opinion and you just decided to openly broadside me. You pulled this same garbage with the Machado/Pedroia issue last year.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 7, 2018 11:40:21 GMT -5
Just for the record: JBJ is younger than Pomeranz JBJ has achieved higher WAR numbers than Pomeranz in the past JBJ is projected to have higher WAR numbers than Pomeranz in the future JBJ is not a pitcher with a sketchy UCL situation And as a side note, women work in baseball ops too, so feel free to drop the "baseball men" thing. I don't usually read your posts because I often find you are rude and obnoxious and when you don't agree with someone you remain blind to alternate views. Yet in this case I I take offense to your reply to me. Why don't you read what the poster Canseco said before openly criticizing me for implying that I'm a sexist. It was the other poster that started with baseball men. I replied in kind --it was not to offend women. OFC you ignored his post because you agreed with your opinion and you just decided to openly broadside me. You pulled this same garbage with the Machado/Pedroia issue last year. I have no idea if you're a sexist. Implying that only men work in baseball ops is a sexist action however. That applies to your post as well as the post you were responding to. Simple as that.
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