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6/24-6/26 Red Sox vs. White Sox Series Thread
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 26, 2019 17:07:05 GMT -5
YEAP I ONLY WANT BIG NAMES. GIVE ME WADE DAVIS, KENLY JANSEN, OR RASIEL IGLESIAS. I WILL WANT 3 MORE ARMS AFTER LIKE YOU SUGGEST TOO. GIVE ME THE 2015 ROYALS, WOOOO!!!! YOU'RE RIGHT AND I HAVEN'T SUGGESTED OTHERWISE!! Meanwhile you've attacked two posters including myself since Matt Barnes blew a lead, including myself. You have used phrases like "think before posting," and "shut the hell up." You were a real pleasure to talk baseball with today, sir. If you don't agree with me that taking Barnes out of the game in the middle of an atbat is ridiculous, then you're lying. Cora has already put in Josh Taylor in the middle of a at bat this past week in the middle of a 3-2 count.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 26, 2019 17:10:10 GMT -5
If you don't agree with me that taking Barnes out of the game in the middle of an atbat is ridiculous, then you're lying. Cora has already put in Josh Taylor in the middle of a at bat this week in the middle of a 3-2 count. What was the reason?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 26, 2019 17:13:40 GMT -5
Cora has already put in Josh Taylor in the middle of a at bat this week in the middle of a 3-2 count. What was the reason? The fact that you think it's ridiculous that anyone would suggest something like this, WHEN IT JUST HAPPENED THIS PAST WEEK, is really something. I had my say. Maybe you won't attack posters someday when the Sox have ugly losses.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 26, 2019 17:13:41 GMT -5
If you don't agree with me that taking Barnes out of the game in the middle of an atbat is ridiculous, then you're lying. Cora has already put in Josh Taylor in the middle of a at bat this past week in the middle of a 3-2 count. I don't know if pulling Barnes in the middle of an at bat is the right call. I mean, we could see he wasn't fooling Abreu, but it's rare to pull a guy in the middle of an at bat. I think the decision to go to him in the first place was the call to question. If they didn't go to Barnes, would you or anyone else have a real problem with it had they lost?
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 26, 2019 17:15:39 GMT -5
The fact that you think it's ridiculous that anyone would suggest something like this, WHEN IT JUST HAPPENED THIS PAST WEEK, is really something. I had my say. Maybe you won't attack posters someday when the Sox have ugly losses. I don't remember it happening and didn't see why. I really want to know why it happened and if Cora just did it because he all of a sudden thought he couldn't get a great hitter out who fouled off 6 pitches in a row or if there were some much better reason that is completely unrelated to what we're talking about. I just looked through all of Josh Taylor's games from the past 2 weeks and didn't find it.
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Post by coachmac on Jun 26, 2019 17:16:36 GMT -5
Of course we we would have been pissed because we blew another save however I would not have second-guessed Taylor or Workman.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 26, 2019 17:17:55 GMT -5
Cora has already put in Josh Taylor in the middle of a at bat this past week in the middle of a 3-2 count. I don't know if pulling Barnes in the middle of an at bat is the right call. I mean, we could see he wasn't fooling Abreu, but it's rare to pull a guy in the middle of an at bat. I think the decision to go to him in the first place was the call to question. If they didn't go to Barnes, would you or anyone else have a real problem with it had they lost? One way or another, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's just the other stuff this board comes with is childish. Do we really need to act this way, really?!!
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 26, 2019 17:19:42 GMT -5
The fact that you think it's ridiculous that anyone would suggest something like this, WHEN IT JUST HAPPENED THIS PAST WEEK, is really something. I had my say. Maybe you won't attack posters someday when the Sox have ugly losses. I don't remember it happening and didn't see why. I really want to know why it happened and if Cora just did it because he all of a sudden thought he couldn't get a great hitter out who fouled off 6 pitches in a row or if there were some much better reason that is completely unrelated to what we're talking about. I just looked through all of Josh Taylor's games from the past 2 weeks and didn't find it. It happened on June 24th. Josh Taylor relieved Colton Brewer on a 3-2 count.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 26, 2019 17:19:53 GMT -5
I don't know if pulling Barnes in the middle of an at bat is the right call. I mean, we could see he wasn't fooling Abreu, but it's rare to pull a guy in the middle of an at bat. I think the decision to go to him in the first place was the call to question. If they didn't go to Barnes, would you or anyone else have a real problem with it had they lost? One way or another, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's just the other stuff this board comes with is childish. Do we really need to act this way, really?!! So sorry, I'll just join in your whining after every bad inning and act like a grown up.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 26, 2019 17:20:47 GMT -5
I don't remember it happening and didn't see why. I really want to know why it happened and if Cora just did it because he all of a sudden thought he couldn't get a great hitter out who fouled off 6 pitches in a row or if there were some much better reason that is completely unrelated to what we're talking about. I just looked through all of Josh Taylor's games from the past 2 weeks and didn't find it. It happened on June 24th. Josh Taylor relieved Colton Brewer on a 3-2 count. Hmmm, Brewer hasn't pitched since. You sure you're not leaving something out?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 26, 2019 17:21:09 GMT -5
I caught the game in the bottom of the 8th in time to see Xander get a clutch 2 out hit. He's been awesome this year. He's become exactly what we hoped he would be.
But the problem is - do you trust the Red Sox to hold a 1 run lead in the 9th, and if so, who is the closer?
Barnes has been awful and when Abreu kept fouling off pitch after pitch it was obvious that the end result wasn't going to be good.
Unless he's hiding an injury, Barnes looks like a guy who is already gassed.
He's a solid reliever most of the time, but he isn't pitching like a guy you'd want to turn the 9th inning over to. The Red Sox don't really have that guy. Workman I guess is the next closest thing, but I'm still uneasy about the number of walks he gives up.
I think it's pretty obvious the Red Sox are going to be forced into making a trade - and my gut feeling is that when it happens, it's going to be painful and we'll be measuring the pain of the deal versus if they had bitten the bullet and given Kimbrel a 3 year $42 million or whatever contract, went over the luxury tax limit with it's penalties, etc.
Either way it seems obvious to me the Sox aren't going to get a closer out of what they currently have. They have guys who can be useful in the bullpen and be effective in those 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th inning types matchups, but they don't have the one guy they can really lean on. Don't know if a guy like that is really available on the trade market, but the Sox will have to measure how good what's out there versus what they have.
Frankly, I wouldn't trust a late inning lead with this bullpen in a post-season series. I'm not a huge believer in bullpen by committee. I think bullpen guys function better when they know their exact roles.
This loss sucks. It was a nice comeback turned into an awful loss. At this point, it's not even worth watching what the Yankees do. Unless they go 6-13 at some point or something like that, they're not coming back down to the Red Sox' level, and the Sox keep finding ways to trip over themselves, blowing games that they should win and failing to win games at home.
To think of them as a serious division contender is at this point, kind of delusional. Wake me up if they get to about 3 games out. I doubt it happens. Tampa has come back to the pack as they are feeling the loss of Glasnow. The Sox could grab 1 of the wild cards, even the top one for the HFA, which has not been an advantage thus far.
I still believe the Sox will remove their heads out of their sphincter long enough to have a good enough stretch that will get them into the post-season. There's a lot of teams, between Cleveland, Oakland, and Texas jockeying for position. If the Sox keep blowing winnable games like this one, they might screw themselves out of a post-season berth, and if that happens, well they'd deserve it. I don't think it's going to happen. I still think they'll win 91 - 93 despite this.
The one thing I really think is that Dombrowski will go out and get a closer. I don't know how good the closer will be, but Dombrowski will not sit idly by on the sidelines. He'll make a move, and all I can say is buckle up. It's going to provoke a lot of reaction when he does.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 26, 2019 17:21:53 GMT -5
It happened on June 24th. Josh Taylor relieved Colton Brewer on a 3-2 count. Hmmm, Brewer hasn't pitched since. You sure you're not leaving something out? Nope I'm not. Brewer isn't injured or he'd be on the IL.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 26, 2019 17:22:35 GMT -5
I don't remember it happening and didn't see why. I really want to know why it happened and if Cora just did it because he all of a sudden thought he couldn't get a great hitter out who fouled off 6 pitches in a row or if there were some much better reason that is completely unrelated to what we're talking about. I just looked through all of Josh Taylor's games from the past 2 weeks and didn't find it. It happened on June 24th. Josh Taylor relieved Colton Brewer on a 3-2 count. I remember that. He walked the batter but pitched well afterwards.
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Post by coachmac on Jun 26, 2019 17:23:23 GMT -5
Jimed-Cora explained that with the stolen base he wanted Taylor in place of Brewer to prevent Jay from flicking one of Brewers curves to leftto score the runner from 2d.He was okay letting Brewer pitch to Jay as long as the runner was on 1st base.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 26, 2019 17:25:52 GMT -5
No Pedro didn't miss anything.
This is from Cora after the game:
With Chicago leading 5-4 and two outs, Jay came to the plate with McCann on first. In that spot, Cora was comfortable using the right-handed Brewer against Jay in a low-leverage situation. When McCann stole second on a 2-2 pitch, things changed.
“I don’t want Jon Jay to put the ball in play against a righty there,” Cora said. “I know he can go out of the zone and flick it to left field. If McCann would have hit a double, it was going to Taylor against Jay. I was like no, you know what, it’s lefty against Jay and we’ll take our chances. Taylor is throwing the ball great and it’s a matchup that’s actually better for us, so we went with it.”
Brewer wasn’t injured, so he was surprised to come out of the game in that spot. Cora did more talking than usual on the mound.
“It was a tough one, trying to tell (Brewer), just hang in here with your crazy manager,” Cora said. “Then Taylor came in and I said, ‘Just relax, brother.’ This is just a kill pitch. If you strike him out, you strike him out. If you walk him, you walk him.”
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 26, 2019 17:26:08 GMT -5
Jimed-Cora explained that with the stolen base he wanted Taylor in place of Brewer to prevent Jay from flicking one of Brewers curves to leftto score the runner from 2d.He was okay letting Brewer pitch to Jay as long as the runner was on 1st base. So in other words it has absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about with Barnes and Abreu. Thanks. That's what I expected. If you let Barnes pitch the first pitch to Abreu, you let him finish the at bat every single time. Anything less is Cora slapping Barnes in the face.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 26, 2019 17:28:40 GMT -5
Jimed-Cora explained that with the stolen base he wanted Taylor in place of Brewer to prevent Jay from flicking one of Brewers curves to leftto score the runner from 2d.He was okay letting Brewer pitch to Jay as long as the runner was on 1st base. So in other words it has absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about with Barnes and Abreu. Thanks. That's what I expected. If you let Barnes pitch the first pitch to Abreu, you let him finish the at bat every single time. But it happened and to call out posters for suggesting it, is really something.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 26, 2019 17:29:59 GMT -5
So in other words it has absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about with Barnes and Abreu. Thanks. That's what I expected. If you let Barnes pitch the first pitch to Abreu, you let him finish the at bat every single time. But it happened and to call out posters for suggesting it, is really something. No, it didn't happen. The circumstances changed, unlike in the Abreu at bat. You're just doubling down on stupidity now. If I said they should have removed him in the middle of the at bat you'd be arguing with me because you don't like me.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 26, 2019 17:31:09 GMT -5
Basically Barnes is higher in the bullpen hierarchy so he wasn't going to do that with Barnes as opposed to Brewer. I get that. But it was pretty obvious that Barnes wasn't going to win the war today. He faced two batters who made solid contact against him and he could not put Abreu away. It was an accident waiting to happen.
Honestly, he could have put Workman in and it still might not have worked out. My issue is less with Cora and more with the late inning options he has.
Their original hope was that Brasier would be the Cody Allen closer (before Allen lost it) and Barnes would be the Andrew Miller fireman, but it's not working out that way. Brasier has had his struggles. Workman and Walden have pitched very well, much better than could be expected. Hembree was on a hot streak before he got injured so he was helping them.
Shawaryn has had his good moments, too. Brewer has pitched a lot better. They have a lot of reasonably good pitching elements but none that you really trust implicitly in the late innings. I mean, Mariano Rivera blew saves. That's going to happen, but the problem is the Red Sox don't really have THAT GUY. The one that other teams dread and feel like shortens the game for them.
Barnes has the raw material to be that guy and was for awhile but has either been pitching with an injury or is simply gassed.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 26, 2019 17:32:01 GMT -5
I don't know if pulling Barnes in the middle of an at bat is the right call. I mean, we could see he wasn't fooling Abreu, but it's rare to pull a guy in the middle of an at bat. I think the decision to go to him in the first place was the call to question. If they didn't go to Barnes, would you or anyone else have a real problem with it had they lost? One way or another, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's just the other stuff this board comes with is childish. Do we really need to act this way, really?!! I think there's a lot of vitriol because virtually the same team that won 108 games and the World Series are struggling to make the playoffs and now the everything is awesome crowd and the doom and gloom crew are completely at each other because of the strong cognitive dissonance about the state of the team and everyone is getting grumpy. They're out of the division and they're clutching to try and make the Wild Card. Their bullpen has been OK on the surface, but they're blowing games at an alarming rate. They have an amazing lineup, but their two best hitters aren't hitting. They have a solid rotation, but there's questions about Sale's and to a degree Price's sustainability. There is literally no depth to this team. They have some guys who can fetch a haul of prospects if you sell now, but you're surrendering this season and people don't want that. They've been one of the best teams since June 1st, but their horrible start put them into a huge hole. I personally believe the Red Sox turnaround is because of the quality log their opponents, which I showed earlier is what everyone is doing. I don't get why people have to get so vicious. So what if you disagree. You can say why without being hostile.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 26, 2019 17:32:13 GMT -5
But it happened and to call out posters for suggesting it, is really something. No, it didn't happen. The circumstances changed, unlike in the Abreu at bat. You're just doubling down on stupidity now. If I said they should have removed him in the middle of the at bat you'd be arguing with me because you don't like me. Lol it happened the first game of the series and you were telling posters to think just for suggesting such a thing.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 26, 2019 17:34:37 GMT -5
Basically Barnes is higher in the bullpen hierarchy so he wasn't going to do that with Barnes as opposed to Brewer. I get that. But it was pretty obvious that Barnes wasn't going to win the war today. He faced two batters who made solid contact against him and he could not put Abreu away. It was an accident waiting to happen. Honestly, he could have put Workman in and it still might not have worked out. My issue is less with Cora and more with the late inning options he has. Their original hope was that Brasier would be the Cody Allen closer (before Allen lost it) and Barnes would be the Andrew Miller fireman, but it's not working out that way. Brasier has had his struggles. Workman and Walden have pitched very well, much better than could be expected. Hembree was on a hot streak before he got injured so he was helping them. Shawaryn has had his good moments, too. Brewer has pitched a lot better. They have a lot of reasonably good pitching elements but none that you really trust implicitly in the late innings. I mean, Mariano Rivera blew saves. That's going to happen, but the problem is the Red Sox don't really have THAT GUY. The one that other teams dread and feel like shortens the game for them. Barnes has the raw material to be that guy and was for awhile but has either been pitching with an injury or is simply gassed. Barnes gave up 87 and 92 mph hits and Abreu fouled off 6 straight pitches including a 99 mph fastball at eye level. You just don't take anyone out of the game in the middle of an atbat when nothing changes at all other than the count. If a pitcher is good enough to pitch against him in pitch one, he's still good enough to pitch him for pitch 11. Anything different than that would make the entire pitching staff revolt against the manager. He had some odd but explainable strategy to explain what he did with Brewer which he never would have been able to explain with Barnes.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 26, 2019 17:40:24 GMT -5
Basically Barnes is higher in the bullpen hierarchy so he wasn't going to do that with Barnes as opposed to Brewer. I get that. But it was pretty obvious that Barnes wasn't going to win the war today. He faced two batters who made solid contact against him and he could not put Abreu away. It was an accident waiting to happen. Honestly, he could have put Workman in and it still might not have worked out. My issue is less with Cora and more with the late inning options he has. Their original hope was that Brasier would be the Cody Allen closer (before Allen lost it) and Barnes would be the Andrew Miller fireman, but it's not working out that way. Brasier has had his struggles. Workman and Walden have pitched very well, much better than could be expected. Hembree was on a hot streak before he got injured so he was helping them. Shawaryn has had his good moments, too. Brewer has pitched a lot better. They have a lot of reasonably good pitching elements but none that you really trust implicitly in the late innings. I mean, Mariano Rivera blew saves. That's going to happen, but the problem is the Red Sox don't really have THAT GUY. The one that other teams dread and feel like shortens the game for them. Barnes has the raw material to be that guy and was for awhile but has either been pitching with an injury or is simply gassed. Barnes gave up 87 and 92 mph hits and Abreu fouled off 6 straight pitches including a 99 mph fastball at eye level. You just don't take anyone out of the game in the middle of an atbat when nothing changes at all other than the count. If a pitcher is good enough to pitch against him in pitch one, he's still good enough to pitch him for pitch 11. Anything different than that would make the entire pitching staff revolt against the manager. He had some odd but explainable strategy to explain what he did with Brewer which he never would have been able to explain with Barnes. What he could have done was signal Barnes to stop throwing balls in the zone and basically put him on before calling out a new reliever. He looked shaky and was clearly not fooling Abreu. But, again, I think the real question is why go to Barnes, especially how bad he is on 0 days rest. It's not a stat I knew about, but feel like it's something Cora should know.
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Post by incandenza on Jun 26, 2019 17:46:36 GMT -5
Basically Barnes is higher in the bullpen hierarchy so he wasn't going to do that with Barnes as opposed to Brewer. I get that. But it was pretty obvious that Barnes wasn't going to win the war today. He faced two batters who made solid contact against him and he could not put Abreu away. It was an accident waiting to happen. Honestly, he could have put Workman in and it still might not have worked out. My issue is less with Cora and more with the late inning options he has. Well yeah, he coulda put Mariano Rivera's bionic clone out there and it might not have worked out. That's baseball. But it's well documented in the last couple pages of this thread that Barnes has not been doing well when pitching on consecutive days. So maybe put in the guy with the 1.70 ERA instead? Or... anyone else, really?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 26, 2019 17:51:37 GMT -5
Basically Barnes is higher in the bullpen hierarchy so he wasn't going to do that with Barnes as opposed to Brewer. I get that. But it was pretty obvious that Barnes wasn't going to win the war today. He faced two batters who made solid contact against him and he could not put Abreu away. It was an accident waiting to happen. Honestly, he could have put Workman in and it still might not have worked out. My issue is less with Cora and more with the late inning options he has. Their original hope was that Brasier would be the Cody Allen closer (before Allen lost it) and Barnes would be the Andrew Miller fireman, but it's not working out that way. Brasier has had his struggles. Workman and Walden have pitched very well, much better than could be expected. Hembree was on a hot streak before he got injured so he was helping them. Shawaryn has had his good moments, too. Brewer has pitched a lot better. They have a lot of reasonably good pitching elements but none that you really trust implicitly in the late innings. I mean, Mariano Rivera blew saves. That's going to happen, but the problem is the Red Sox don't really have THAT GUY. The one that other teams dread and feel like shortens the game for them. Barnes has the raw material to be that guy and was for awhile but has either been pitching with an injury or is simply gassed. Barnes gave up 87 and 92 mph hits and Abreu fouled off 6 straight pitches including a 99 mph fastball at eye level. You just don't take anyone out of the game in the middle of an atbat when nothing changes at all other than the count. If a pitcher is good enough to pitch against him in pitch one, he's still good enough to pitch him for pitch 11. Anything different than that would make the entire pitching staff revolt against the manager. He had some odd but explainable strategy to explain what he did with Brewer which he never would have been able to explain with Barnes. I probably don't pull Barnes either. However, you say some off-putting stuff on a GDT. I don't hate you or anyone here, or I would have left and not donated a long time ago. I just think the constant attack of posters takes away from your good posts here and that's unfortunate. I have faults of my own, like repeating and getting names constantly wrong, that drives people nuts myself. I just try to keep it friendly, that's all.
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