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2019-20 Non-Red Sox Offseason Thread
mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,780
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Post by mobaz on Dec 11, 2019 8:54:16 GMT -5
The Dustin Pedroia contract that we all now "hate" was an early instance of that, driven by player desire for time instead of the economic environment. He was worth $20-$25M at his peak of that contract but was getting $15M, with the remainder still on the books these last few years. I think he still would be a $10M a year player now if he hadn't had two knee catastrophes.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 11, 2019 8:57:18 GMT -5
Nomar Mazara seems like a perfect fit for the White Sox. His value was low and their RF situation last year was a disaster. Even if he doesn't figure it out and remains a 1.0-ish WAR player, that's an upgrade, and it's possible he's got more than that in him.
The White Sox can't pitch, but by position: C Yasmani Grandal 1B Jose Abreu 2B Nick Madrigal SS Tim Anderson 3B Yoan Moncada LF Eloy Jimenez CF Luis Robert RF Nomar Mazara
Reasonable chance that Mazara is their worst regular, and you can beat up a lot of pitchers if Mazara is your worst regular.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 11, 2019 9:39:11 GMT -5
Steele Walker, Texas Ranger.
It has the right ring to it.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 11, 2019 9:56:08 GMT -5
Steele Walker, Texas Ranger. It has the right ring to it. I hate myself for being beaten to this. Excellent work, Ray.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 11, 2019 11:18:56 GMT -5
Also I'm extremely disappointed by the civility and rationality in response to this signing. The anarchist in me was hoping for a dumpster fire from the NYY panic delegation.
Reap what you sow I guess. Oh well!
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 11, 2019 13:12:16 GMT -5
Globe has a piece on the see-saw effect of the soft cap. The Yankees are on the see side now, the saw may come later. It all does depend on the next CBA so that's likely a reasonable gamble on their part. By that I mean that Cashman may still have his job in five years even as he's dealing with a budget squeeze.
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Post by soxaddict on Dec 11, 2019 16:17:33 GMT -5
Mets close to signing Wacha. I would have loved the Sox to have been in on him.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 11, 2019 16:26:28 GMT -5
Mets close to signing Wacha. I would have loved the Sox to have been in on him. I could be wrong, but I think he has seen his best days already.
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Post by texs31 on Dec 11, 2019 16:26:32 GMT -5
Mets close to signing Wacha. I would have loved the Sox to have been in on him. I think this gets back to Chad Jenning's (The Athletic) thoughts leading up to the Winter Meetings. Their (desired) moves are likely linked. In this case, if they can't move Price (or, I suppose, Eovaldi) then they are likely looking at Minor League deals (or using Openers) for the back of the rotation. If they can, then a Wacha (or Porcello) is potentially in the mix (though we don't know the cost so who knows). Until they are able to determine a path on Price, they are likely stuck in limbo.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 11, 2019 21:57:22 GMT -5
Angels trying to free up cash for Cole. Will Wilson was the Angels first round pick in 2019. It could also be for Rendon. I don't think they have a above replacement level player at third base right now. Cosart wasn't one, but he was a option at third base for them.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 11, 2019 22:34:15 GMT -5
Whoever doesn't get Rendon still has Kris Bryant and now Nolan Arrenado as trade possibilities. I can see a scenario where the Dodgers line up with the Rockies for a trade. If Arrenado goes anywhere I'd guess it would be LA.
Perhaps Texas engages the Cubs for Bryant.
I figure if the Angels do indeed get Rendon - sounds like they will, they'll then go after a pitcher. I would guess that means Price or Kluber or Carrasco as previously mentioned.
But there are other teams who need pitching. If the Dodgers get Bumgarner that takes them out of the Price sweepstakes but at some point some team will take Price, albeit heavily subsidized.
If it were an option I would take Myers in a deal for Price. I think Myers would play better in a hitter's park. He has always been in tougher parks to hit. I'd also take Upton in a deal for Price to Anaheim. If they got Myers or Upton, it means that you could slide Mookie to CF and not necessarily have to replace JBJ in CF. Honestly, though, if the Angels get Rendon, you'd want to pair him with Trout and hope that Upton bounces back from injuries.
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Post by soxfaninnj on Dec 11, 2019 22:41:07 GMT -5
Rendon 7/245 from the angels
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 11, 2019 23:20:21 GMT -5
Well now. Give Ohtani another year under his belt, continued recovery by Simmons who was finding his groove at the season's end, and that starts to look like a baseball team with some serious offensive punch. They've still got a bunch of holes but it looks as if they've got the backhoe loaded up with $ to fill them. I'd guess the money spent on Rendon will be a much better investment than the $200+ million they will have dolled out to Pujols by next year.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 12, 2019 0:55:16 GMT -5
The Angels are apparently also looking at Keuchel and aren't done yet.
Jon Morosi @jonmorosi ·
Source: #Angels still planning to add a significant starting pitcher. They’re pursuing Bumgarner, Ryu or Keuchel in free agency or #Rockies RHP Jon Gray (among others) on trade market. @mlbnetwork @mlb
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 12, 2019 1:31:30 GMT -5
Looking less likely that the Angels wind up with Price. They have a lot of other options. Somebody is going to need pitching, but the way things are going, it looks like the Red Sox are at a standstill until other teams are ready to come to them. Instead of being aggressive they have no choice but to be reactionary. It's too bad.
The Angels certainly are getting to work on improving their team for next year. When I was thinking of the Angels lineup I forgot Ohtani. What was I thinking? And they might get him back on the mound as well?
So between Trout, Rendon, Ohtani, Upton, and eventually Adell who should be up soon at some point, the Angels have some thump. Pujols should hit some HRs anyways.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Dec 12, 2019 13:02:21 GMT -5
Also I'm extremely disappointed by the civility and rationality in response to this signing. The anarchist in me was hoping for a dumpster fire from the NYY panic delegation. Reap what you sow I guess. Oh well! I like scream and complain with the best of them, but even this contract makes me hesitant. That's a lot of money and years tied to a starting pitcher. No reason he can't age like Verlander, but those guys are the exception to the rule. I say this as the Red Sox are likely going to make Mookie a $400 million man.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 12, 2019 13:41:03 GMT -5
Also I'm extremely disappointed by the civility and rationality in response to this signing. The anarchist in me was hoping for a dumpster fire from the NYY panic delegation. Reap what you sow I guess. Oh well! I like scream and complain with the best of them, but even this contract makes me hesitant. That's a lot of money and years tied to a starting pitcher. No reason he can't age like Verlander, but those guys are the exception to the rule. I say this as the Red Sox are likely going to make Mookie a $400 million man. As ridiculous as 9 years is for a pitcher the Yankees would have been dumb not to make this move, especially with the Dodgers having offered 8 years. Yeah, at some point the contract won't be worth it. The question is how many good/great years do they get with that contract? I mean if the Yankees win multiple World Series titles with Cole as a big contributor, the Yankees will have gotten what they wanted out of it. I mean, as I've used for examples before, the Red Sox didn't get true value out of free agent signings like Schilling (though he did come reasonably close to value), Foulke (one good year out of 3), Victorino (one good year out of 3), etc., but I doubt the Red Sox regretted any of those deals. I wished the Sox had signed Lester and the Sox wouldn't have needed to sign Price. Yet that said, I don't regret that the Sox signed Price. He was huge in helping the Sox win the World Series. He didn't pitch like a 30 million man the rest of the time, but it's not like he was a bust, but at the end of the day, I wouldn't undo the signing. Even if you don't get quote unquote true value. Most free agents never give you true value. Very rare that you get a Manny who gives you exactly what you paid for. The big joke of it is that by time Cole is around Year 9 of his contract, that $35 million/year figure will be what a #3 starter makes on the open market. Aces by then should be eclipsing $50 million/year. As far as Cole himself, I looked at his numbers a little more closer. He has an extreme K/BB ratio. I think he's going to be good for quite awhile. I don't think he's going to turn 32 and just suddenly lose it. With injuries you never do know and pitchers are the riskiest creatures on earth, but if you're going to give that kind of money to a pitcher, he's the guy. His 2019 results weren't a fluke. You'd be crazy to not admit that the Yankees helped themselves immensely for the foreseeable future. Now I hope they don't come away with Hader, too. Sheesh.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Dec 12, 2019 17:19:48 GMT -5
I like scream and complain with the best of them, but even this contract makes me hesitant. That's a lot of money and years tied to a starting pitcher. No reason he can't age like Verlander, but those guys are the exception to the rule. I say this as the Red Sox are likely going to make Mookie a $400 million man. As ridiculous as 9 years is for a pitcher the Yankees would have been dumb not to make this move, especially with the Dodgers having offered 8 years. Yeah, at some point the contract won't be worth it. The question is how many good/great years do they get with that contract? I mean if the Yankees win multiple World Series titles with Cole as a big contributor, the Yankees will have gotten what they wanted out of it. I mean, as I've used for examples before, the Red Sox didn't get true value out of free agent signings like Schilling (though he did come reasonably close to value), Foulke (one good year out of 3), Victorino (one good year out of 3), etc., but I doubt the Red Sox regretted any of those deals. I wished the Sox had signed Lester and the Sox wouldn't have needed to sign Price. Yet that said, I don't regret that the Sox signed Price. He was huge in helping the Sox win the World Series. He didn't pitch like a 30 million man the rest of the time, but it's not like he was a bust, but at the end of the day, I wouldn't undo the signing. Even if you don't get quote unquote true value. Most free agents never give you true value. Very rare that you get a Manny who gives you exactly what you paid for. The big joke of it is that by time Cole is around Year 9 of his contract, that $35 million/year figure will be what a #3 starter makes on the open market. Aces by then should be eclipsing $50 million/year. As far as Cole himself, I looked at his numbers a little more closer. He has an extreme K/BB ratio. I think he's going to be good for quite awhile. I don't think he's going to turn 32 and just suddenly lose it. With injuries you never do know and pitchers are the riskiest creatures on earth, but if you're going to give that kind of money to a pitcher, he's the guy. His 2019 results weren't a fluke. You'd be crazy to not admit that the Yankees helped themselves immensely for the foreseeable future. Now I hope they don't come away with Hader, too. Sheesh. I'm not denying he's a great get. If they win a ring with him then he was worth every last penny of his contract. For all you can say about Price, he was worth it. Even if he never pitched again. With that said, the number and years is incredibly risky even if he has no signs of breaking down and has tremendous peripherals. I mean, you have to take chances and if someone is going to get paid, it's a guy like him. They're the clear favorites in the AL East for sure. They just better be right when it comes to Cole. Someone like Ellsbury has handicapped them from signing someone at some point. Off-topic, but are the Yankees able to get out of paying him like they're trying to do?
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Post by threeifbaerga on Dec 12, 2019 17:34:27 GMT -5
As far as Cole himself, I looked at his numbers a little more closer. He has an extreme K/BB ratio. I think he's going to be good for quite awhile. I don't think he's going to turn 32 and just suddenly lose it. With injuries you never do know and pitchers are the riskiest creatures on earth, but if you're going to give that kind of money to a pitcher, he's the guy. His 2019 results weren't a fluke.
The one thing that gets me with this deal (or maybe the one solace I can find, considering) is that both he and Verlander joined the Astros and immediately got better and he's not the only one. I've done some cursory digging and couldn't say whether my hare-brained speculation holds up but I'd be interested. Whether it's their coaching staff or -ahem- something else what says the Yankees get the Houston version of Cole and not the Pittsburgh version?
Don't get me wrong the Pittsburgh version is still a wonderful pitcher to have but he's not the world beating damn-near-7-bWAR pitcher they're paying for.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 12, 2019 17:38:31 GMT -5
As far as Cole himself, I looked at his numbers a little more closer. He has an extreme K/BB ratio. I think he's going to be good for quite awhile. I don't think he's going to turn 32 and just suddenly lose it. With injuries you never do know and pitchers are the riskiest creatures on earth, but if you're going to give that kind of money to a pitcher, he's the guy. His 2019 results weren't a fluke. The one thing that gets me with this deal (or maybe the one solace I can find, considering) is that both he and Verlander joined the Astros and immediately got better and he's not the only one. I've done some cursory digging and couldn't say whether my hare-brained speculation holds up but I'd be interested. Whether it's their coaching staff or -ahem- something else what says the Yankees get the Houston version of Cole and not the Pittsburgh version?
Don't get me wrong the Pittsburgh version is still a wonderful pitcher to have but he's not the world beating damn-near-7-bWAR pitcher they're paying for.
I was under that impression, too, but I think it was the 2015 season perhaps, but there was a 19 win season - can't remember if it was 2015 for certain, but he had a strong K/BB ratio, and it looked like he could blossom into this kind of pitcher. But I think he got hurt and went backwards for a little before improving toward what he was in 2015 and beyond. I had thought it was a Houston thing and going there certainly didn't hurt him, but he truly is an excellent pitcher. I hardly paid attention to him and remember the Sox beating him up on Opening Day (2017?) when he was with the Pirates - for some reason I haven't paid much attention to the Pirates, but Cole really was a good pitcher and now he has fully blossomed.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Dec 13, 2019 13:40:52 GMT -5
As far as Cole himself, I looked at his numbers a little more closer. He has an extreme K/BB ratio. I think he's going to be good for quite awhile. I don't think he's going to turn 32 and just suddenly lose it. With injuries you never do know and pitchers are the riskiest creatures on earth, but if you're going to give that kind of money to a pitcher, he's the guy. His 2019 results weren't a fluke. The one thing that gets me with this deal (or maybe the one solace I can find, considering) is that both he and Verlander joined the Astros and immediately got better and he's not the only one. I've done some cursory digging and couldn't say whether my hare-brained speculation holds up but I'd be interested. Whether it's their coaching staff or -ahem- something else what says the Yankees get the Houston version of Cole and not the Pittsburgh version?
Don't get me wrong the Pittsburgh version is still a wonderful pitcher to have but he's not the world beating damn-near-7-bWAR pitcher they're paying for.
Glasnow went from having a career ERA of 4.51 to a 1.78 season the year following being traded. It sounds more like a Pittsburgh problem. Verlander has always been good.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 13, 2019 14:18:34 GMT -5
As far as Cole himself, I looked at his numbers a little more closer. He has an extreme K/BB ratio. I think he's going to be good for quite awhile. I don't think he's going to turn 32 and just suddenly lose it. With injuries you never do know and pitchers are the riskiest creatures on earth, but if you're going to give that kind of money to a pitcher, he's the guy. His 2019 results weren't a fluke. The one thing that gets me with this deal (or maybe the one solace I can find, considering) is that both he and Verlander joined the Astros and immediately got better and he's not the only one. I've done some cursory digging and couldn't say whether my hare-brained speculation holds up but I'd be interested. Whether it's their coaching staff or -ahem- something else what says the Yankees get the Houston version of Cole and not the Pittsburgh version?
Don't get me wrong the Pittsburgh version is still a wonderful pitcher to have but he's not the world beating damn-near-7-bWAR pitcher they're paying for.
Cole's Fangraph's player comment coming into the 2019 season: www.fangraphs.com/players/gerrit-cole/13125/stats?position=PThe short story is, Pittsburg loved sinkers and pushed Cole to use his a lot despite it being his worst pitch, and once the Astros told him to stop he immediately became the pitcher he was supposed to be all along. The Yankees basically take a similar approach to pitching as the Astros, and I expect Cole to be a similar pitcher next year.
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 14, 2019 20:40:28 GMT -5
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 14, 2019 23:19:00 GMT -5
I know I keep coming back to this, but the big deal for Rendon really reinforces the point: what does Xander Bogaerts make if he hits the free agent market right now? 8/$225-ish? What a steal.
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Post by Addam603 on Dec 15, 2019 12:16:37 GMT -5
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