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Post by texs31 on Jan 27, 2020 13:21:54 GMT -5
I submit this with as much respect as I can muster:
You want to mourn Kobe, you have the right.
But several articles (including 1 on Esquire) were released this morning that addressed the very issue that was brought up. That means they were written immediately afterwards and only proper editorial protocol prevented them from being available for consumption in a similar timeframe to JimEd's comments.
As for me, I felt sad for people directly impacted by the accident. But, as a father of 2 young girls, I also felt angry. Angry that the world seemingly has completely forgotten what happened to someone else's little girl that night in Colorado. I thought, how would I feel, if that was one of my daughters (they are only 7 and 3 so, obviously not a direct comparison). How would I feel watching the world deify someone who had taken so much from her and just wrote a check and provided a half-baked apology to make it go away.
You didn't direct the comments to me but I took serious offense to them. Not sure whether I would have posted something about my feelings or not but JimEd beat me to it anyway. To read you call him (and, therefore, me) classless and now, to suggest we don't have a clue (not to mention "throwing punches after the ref has separated the fighters") gets me even more angry.
I guarantee, you don't possess the timer on when I'm allowed to express my feelings on someone who hurt someone else's child.
To Chris, I apologize for my role in the escalation. I'd like to think my history of behavior on this board gives me a pass but I understand completely if you feel a need to act. I just can't let being attacked go especially related to a topic (abuse towards women) that I feel so strongly about.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 27, 2020 13:53:14 GMT -5
There's a time for everything. I called Kobe a rapist in the past because he was a heated rival. Thing is, we don't know what happened in Colorado. None of us do. What we do know is that a family lost its father, a sport lost an icon and fans all over the world lost an inspirational figure for the things we do know about him beyond any doubt. If anyone wants to cast a shadow in his legacy because of 2003, by all means knock yourself out. But doing so in the DAY A PERSON DIES is just not cool.
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Post by swingingbunt on Jan 27, 2020 14:07:22 GMT -5
OMG. Here we go again....
We do know what happened. Kobe ADMITTED that the sex wasn't consensual. And what do we call sex in which one person doesn't consent? Rape.
I'm sorry for his family that they lost a loved one. I'm also sorry for all victims of sexual assault yesterday that had to see a rapist rise to the level of hero.
Kobe was a great basketball player and he should be remembered as one. Kobe was also a rapists and he should be remembered as one.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 27, 2020 14:11:25 GMT -5
Don, that case was way beyond "he said she said" if you want to google it. There is a lot of evidence that was collected the day after it happened. It's not like a Weinstein/Crosby case where nothing was said for 40 years.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 27, 2020 14:13:40 GMT -5
We do know what happened. Kobe ADMITTED that the sex wasn't consensual. And what do we call sex in which one person doesn't consent? Rape. "Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter." That's what he said, how the fuck is that an admission that the sex wasn't consensual? |
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Post by swingingbunt on Jan 27, 2020 14:18:06 GMT -5
We do know what happened. Kobe ADMITTED that the sex wasn't consensual. And what do we call sex in which one person doesn't consent? Rape. "Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter." That's what he said, how the fuck is that an admission that the sex wasn't consensual? The part where he says she didn't consent |
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 27, 2020 14:18:45 GMT -5
Don, that case was way beyond "he said she said" if you want to google it. There is a lot of evidence that was collected the day after it happened. It's not like a Weinstein/Crosby case where nothing was said for 40 years. I'm not saying he didn't do it, I'm saying it's pointless to mention it in the day he died and that yes, we don't fully know what happened. Why have this debate on such a tragic day? He wasn't a predator. |
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Post by swingingbunt on Jan 27, 2020 14:19:16 GMT -5
Don, that case was way beyond "he said she said" if you want to google it. There is a lot of evidence that was collected the day after it happened. It's not like a Weinstein/Crosby case where nothing was said for 40 years. Its a "she said he also said" |
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 27, 2020 14:25:26 GMT -5
"Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter." That's what he said, how the fuck is that an admission that the sex wasn't consensual? The part where he says she didn't consent That's not how I read it. I don't want to have this conversation. I respect if you didn't think much of him for this reason, it's honestly your call. My point is that we shouldn't be having this debate right now and that there will be a right time to do so. It just feels wrong doing so now. |
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Post by swingingbunt on Jan 27, 2020 14:30:48 GMT -5
Rape occurs every 73 seconds in this country. We can't afford to wait until it's a convenient time to call a rapist a rapist.
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ianrs
Veteran
Posts: 2,405 
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Post by ianrs on Jan 27, 2020 14:58:58 GMT -5
It is okay to simultaneously mourn Kobe's death and acknowledge that he was a rapist. The world is a complex, imperfect place with complex, imperfect people.
It makes sense that rape victims would feel traumatized by a rapist being idolized, even in death, with no mention of nuance or complexity of that individual. Legacies are written by the totality of action. Even if much of Kobe's life was inspirational; that does not absolve awful transgressions.
Even if it feels wrong, the reality is that the conversation needs to be had. Its important to acknowledge as a part of his legacy, even if the timing is inconvenient. I personally acknowledge this, while I am also at the same time in awe of his work ethic and extremely sad for him and his family.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 27, 2020 15:17:36 GMT -5
The part where he says she didn't consent That's not how I read it. I don't want to have this conversation. I respect if you didn't think much of him for this reason, it's honestly your call. My point is that we shouldn't be having this debate right now and that there will be a right time to do so. It just feels wrong doing so now. The main reason it entered my mind to bring it up is because he's being raised up as an infallable cherished hero on the news ad nauseam for the last 24 hours. It really makes me wonder how many people would have cried about Jeffrey Epstein's death if he were a sports hero. I have not raping people higher on my list than athletic ability when judging people after death. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 27, 2020 15:21:53 GMT -5
It is okay to simultaneously mourn Kobe's death and acknowledge that he was a rapist. The world is a complex, imperfect place with complex, imperfect people. It makes sense that rape victims would feel traumatized by a rapist being idolized, even in death, with no mention of nuance or complexity of that individual. Legacies are written by the totality of action. Even if much of Kobe's life was inspirational; that does not absolve awful transgressions. Even if it feels wrong, the reality is that the conversation needs to be had. Its important to acknowledge as a part of his legacy, even if the timing is inconvenient. I personally acknowledge this, while I am also at the same time in awe of his work ethic and extremely sad for him and his family. That's a very fair and rational way to view it. I'm not saying that he should get a free pass for what happened in 2003, I don't condone his actions. I understand people react differently to this kind of story. When I said that we don't know what happened, I meant that we have no way of knowing his mindset at the time, the full set of circumstances and details. I don't mean that to excuse him. It's shit. It's always going to be shit. What he did was shit. It is what it is. Our idols are not role models. They're people. And yet 9 people died yesterday and the sadness of this situation is overwhelming to me, the tragedy makes the whole thing irrational. Maybe it affected me in a really bad way for whatever mysterious reason. And I understand the frustration of seeing the rape debate right now, I can't quite put it into words, but I understand it. Which is ultimately why I don't think it's an appropriate time to talk about how this defined Kobe. It's just an emotional whirlwind. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 27, 2020 15:23:07 GMT -5
The main reason it entered my mind to bring it up is because he's being raised up as an infallable cherished hero on the news ad nauseam for the last 24 hours. It really makes me wonder how many people would have cried about Jeffrey Epstein's death if he were a sports hero. I have not raping people higher on my list than athletic ability when judging people after death. To be fair, I've seen the 2003 incident being mentioned a lot by the media. I don't think they're sweeping it under the rug. |
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 27, 2020 15:29:22 GMT -5
The main reason it entered my mind to bring it up is because he's being raised up as an infallable cherished hero on the news ad nauseam for the last 24 hours. It really makes me wonder how many people would have cried about Jeffrey Epstein's death if he were a sports hero. I have not raping people higher on my list than athletic ability when judging people after death. To be fair, I've seen the 2003 incident being mentioned a lot by the media. I don't think they're sweeping it under the rug. That must have happened since I first brought it up. It certainly wasn't on the nightly news or ESPN. I stopped watching since because I can't stomach it. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 27, 2020 16:19:36 GMT -5
That's not how I read it. I don't want to have this conversation. I respect if you didn't think much of him for this reason, it's honestly your call. My point is that we shouldn't be having this debate right now and that there will be a right time to do so. It just feels wrong doing so now. The main reason it entered my mind to bring it up is because he's being raised up as an infallable cherished hero on the news ad nauseam for the last 24 hours. It really makes me wonder how many people would have cried about Jeffrey Epstein's death if he were a sports hero. I have not raping people higher on my list than athletic ability when judging people after death. Let’s not act like Kobe and Epstein are comparable. |
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 27, 2020 16:52:58 GMT -5
The main reason it entered my mind to bring it up is because he's being raised up as an infallable cherished hero on the news ad nauseam for the last 24 hours. It really makes me wonder how many people would have cried about Jeffrey Epstein's death if he were a sports hero. I have not raping people higher on my list than athletic ability when judging people after death. Let’s not act like Kobe and Epstein are comparable. I'm not. But the point remains. People worship all levels of scum. |
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 27, 2020 17:14:37 GMT -5
I would prefer that discussion of the Colorado incident go in the throwdown thread please. Thank you.
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