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Mookie Betts traded as part of a three-team deal
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 5, 2020 9:28:32 GMT -5
That list is like handing in a term paper in 18-point font. Yan Gomes? Archie Bradley? You really thought you were going to sneak that by? Can't wait for twenty twenty two to sign Archie Bradley, It's also just an extra little twist of the knife that so many of the best players on this list are shortstops and therefor not a great match for a team committed to Bogaerts and (we hope) Devers. For some reason I thought Archie Bradley was a better bullpen piece than what he was last year. Still, I'm not saying spend your Mookie money on Archie Bradley. Just that there's valuable bullpen arms when your bullpen has been this team's Achilles heel. It is unfortunate that 2022 is highlighted by a plethora of phenomenal SS, but there's some good pieces all around the diamond to be obtained. Oh come on. We just got through every 2019 reliever signing being awful, and you want to tell me about guys who are going to be good in 2022? Free agent relievers available in future seasons do not figure into this discussion whatsoever.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 5, 2020 9:30:25 GMT -5
For some reason I thought Archie Bradley was a better bullpen piece than what he was last year. Still, I'm not saying spend your Mookie money on Archie Bradley. Just that there's valuable bullpen arms when your bullpen has been this team's Achilles heel. It is unfortunate that 2022 is highlighted by a plethora of phenomenal SS, but there's some good pieces all around the diamond to be obtained. Oh come on. We just got through every 2019 reliever signing being awful, and you want to tell me about guys who are going to be good in 2022? Free agent relievers available in future seasons do not figure into this discussion whatsoever. It is fair to suggest that it's a meaningless list due to reliever volatility. The best signing could be a AAAA pitcher that no one heard of.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 5, 2020 9:30:57 GMT -5
I'm reminded of words David Ortiz has said in his book.
The Red Sox always value other teams' free agents more than their own.
The Red Sox didn't value Mookie Betts to the point they were willing to pay him his 400 million. They'll overspend on somebody else with less impressive results, but that's what they do.
I mean if you have to spend money, who in the world would you want to spend it on?
There's no excuse for the Red Sox NOT to offer Mookie his desired money this upcoming offseason - they've reset and they can afford it.
But I don't trust that they will. The Dodgers value what they just got and they will put forth the money. The Sox could have. They chose not to and will spin it that Mookie turned down every (under market) offer - of course they'll leave the hometown discount part out.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Feb 5, 2020 9:37:01 GMT -5
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 5, 2020 9:49:05 GMT -5
This is the "instead of signing Jon Lester, the money is best spread out to secondary pieces like Pablo Sandoval and Hanley Ramirez" argument.
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Post by huskies15 on Feb 5, 2020 9:49:29 GMT -5
It's a sad and disgraceful day. Such a transparent money grab by a billionaire owner. I'm just sad that Mookie won't be swinging his hips after crushing a double off the Monster to force Gerrit Cole out of the game with Fenway going wild.
I was mad last night and now its just sadness. Thanks Henry, hope your kids get to be trillionaires now.
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Post by libertine on Feb 5, 2020 10:00:32 GMT -5
I would like this deal more/wouldn't hate it if we had a loaded system with top prospects lined up to step up, but...……….
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Post by greekgodofpancakes on Feb 5, 2020 10:04:35 GMT -5
OK - deal is done. Now what? I think Bloom looks at the next 2-3 years as a rebuild (bridge). Gotta think that he jettisons anyone who will not contribute in 2022 and beyond and maximize their value (likely at the trading deadline). Unless the plan is to bring back Mookie next year, you have to rebuild and hope that X and Devers are the proper building blocks for this franchise. Start with the farm system, with a focus on needing to be the next LA Dodgers (competitive every year and constantly supplying the major league team with talent make the minimum. The Yankees have done it, but did so by trading their assets for better returns (presumably).
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 5, 2020 10:05:04 GMT -5
This is the "instead of signing Jon Lester, the money is best spread out to secondary pieces like Pablo Sandoval and Hanley Ramirez" argument. I think Aaron Nola and Freddie Freeman are slightly better than that. Plus, you literally can reacquire Betts. From all reports, it literally does not matter where he plays next season. He's going for top dollar. If that's the Red Sox, he's coming back.
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 5, 2020 10:06:01 GMT -5
Guys I had a real bad dream last night that we just traded one of the best players in franchise history as a sweetener on a salary dump involving someone who wasn't even close to being bad.
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 5, 2020 10:12:32 GMT -5
This is the "instead of signing Jon Lester, the money is best spread out to secondary pieces like Pablo Sandoval and Hanley Ramirez" argument. I think Aaron Nola and Freddie Freeman are slightly better than that. Plus, you literally can reacquire Betts. From all reports, it literally does not matter where he plays next season. He's going for top dollar. If that's the Red Sox, he's coming back. Freddie Freeman is great. Using "payroll flexibility" on giving a seven-year deal to a 31-year-old Freddie Freeman instead of just signing a HOF-quality player like Betts who is three years younger is exactly the sort of thing I'm worried about. As far as Aaron Nola, the Red Sox just had to use a year of the best player they've developed in 50 years to get out of David Price, who was much better in his prime than Aaron Nola.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Feb 5, 2020 10:21:00 GMT -5
Guys I had a real bad dream last night that we just traded one of the best players in franchise history as a sweetener on a salary dump involving someone who wasn't even close to being bad. Sharing the same dream as you. Can someone please wake me up so I can find out what the real trade return is?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 5, 2020 10:22:37 GMT -5
This is the "instead of signing Jon Lester, the money is best spread out to secondary pieces like Pablo Sandoval and Hanley Ramirez" argument. I think Aaron Nola and Freddie Freeman are slightly better than that. Plus, you literally can reacquire Betts. From all reports, it literally does not matter where he plays next season. He's going for top dollar. If that's the Red Sox, he's coming back. It won't be. The Red Sox will not be spending the money it takes to sign Betts. It's a fantasy that they will. They did not want to pay him market value. The Dodgers will.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 5, 2020 10:28:36 GMT -5
I think Aaron Nola and Freddie Freeman are slightly better than that. Plus, you literally can reacquire Betts. From all reports, it literally does not matter where he plays next season. He's going for top dollar. If that's the Red Sox, he's coming back. It won't be. The Red Sox will not be spending the money it takes to sign Betts. It's a fantasy that they will. They did not want to pay him market value. The Dodgers will. That's likely, but I feel like the Dodgers would do that anyways and the Red Sox wouldn't. Then again, if Martinez opts out, who knows? The Red Sox could feel Betts just isn't worth 420 million. I feel like it's more appropriate to kill them for this the year after once he gets his money.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 5, 2020 10:32:17 GMT -5
It won't be. The Red Sox will not be spending the money it takes to sign Betts. It's a fantasy that they will. They did not want to pay him market value. The Dodgers will. That's likely, but I feel like the Dodgers would do that anyways and the Red Sox wouldn't. Then again, if Martinez opts out, who knows? The Red Sox could feel Betts just isn't worth 420 million. I feel like it's more appropriate to kill them for this the year after once he gets his money. I suspect JDM will be traded for pennies on the dollar in July when the Red Sox are hopelessly out of the Wild Card race. I think you have it right as far as the Red Sox not valuing Betts for $420 million. Like Big Papi said, the Sox will always value some other team's talent more than their own. Yeah, they'll make an offer to Betts like they did Lester, but like the Cubs blew away their offer the Dodgers will do likewise with Betts.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Feb 5, 2020 10:36:09 GMT -5
Few thoughts/feedback from reading through all the reaction posts:
- ownership/dombrowski definitely put the team in a bind with the salary and announcing that we had to get under the tax. But this trade doesn't look like ownership mettled at all.
- this looks very much like a Tampa trade. Send the older players with less control out for unproven high ceiling affordable players with years of team control back
- many of us thought that price had value similar to Bumgarner in $/yr - but clearly not the case. Should have paid more attention to the report that GMs thought he was only with n about 12/yr
- with the extra complications of this trade it's clear that the Red Sox got exactly the players they wanted. Dodgers are swimming in young pitching but the twins had the guy who made it work. Let's hope that Chaim and crew are right.
- Graterol doesn't look 265. He certainly looks much thinner than Schilling did. Let's see how he looks once he reports.
- Verdugo has had immaturity issues but there's no evidence of anything further (I read all of the articles I could find). He was young - let's hope he has learned. On the other hand, Price has always been a bully/ahole; it didn't seem to affect the team but I'm not going to miss him as a fan.
- I think we all would have been much happier if Chaim had gotten back another couple of no name young prospects - just to have something to dream on. But based on $$ value, those guys aren't worth much so it would have been less about winning and more about appeasing the nerdier fans.
- chances of resigning Mookie have dropped slightly, but there's no reason to think he's not coming back. Mookie will have to move for the season but there's nothing to suggest he will hold this against the Red Sox. More than most players, he understands it's a business.
- the Red Sox now have about 15mil to spend on payroll. What do they do with it? Pickup a couple of low proceed free agents (Brock!)? Extend Devers? Keep flexibility for in-season trades? This will be the next story to follow
I'm going to miss Mookie this year, but at least we can be excited for 2 new players who will be in Boston uniforms right away (assume Verdugos back checks out).
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Post by taftreign on Feb 5, 2020 10:36:26 GMT -5
With money coming off the books between now and 2023 and the tax threshold has been reset let's get a quick rundown on some of what they can now spend their money on: 2021: Mookie Betts J.T. Realmuto George Springer Daniel Murphy (mutual option) Justin Turner Marcus Semien Andrelton Simmons Jonathan Villar James Paxton Trevor Bauer 2022: Francisco Lindor Carlos Correa Corey Seager Trevor Story Javier Baez Anthony Rizzo Freddie Freeman Brandon Belt Salvador Perez Wilson Ramos Yan Gomes Michael Conforto Tommy Pham Starling Marte Kyle Schwarber Byron Buxton Aaron Nola Noah Syndergaard Clayton Kershaw Chris Archer Aroldis Chapman Kenley Jansen Brad Hand Jeurys Familia Corey Knebel Archie Bradley Raisel Iglesias Roberto Osuna The only two that excite me from this list are Mookie and Lindor. We can pray Mookie comes home and I bet Lindor plays a pretty good 2nd base too.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 5, 2020 10:38:12 GMT -5
I think Aaron Nola and Freddie Freeman are slightly better than that. Plus, you literally can reacquire Betts. From all reports, it literally does not matter where he plays next season. He's going for top dollar. If that's the Red Sox, he's coming back. Freddie Freeman is great. Using "payroll flexibility" on giving a seven-year deal to a 31-year-old Freddie Freeman instead of just signing a HOF-quality player like Betts who is three years younger is exactly the sort of thing I'm worried about. As far as Aaron Nola, the Red Sox just had to use a year of the best player they've developed in 50 years to get out of David Price, who was much better in his prime than Aaron Nola. But David Price is no longer David Price of old. The pitcher they got back could be better than Price in 2 years. I guess I'm just hoping I understand their plan and ability to execute it correctly, but won't know for sure until the next off-season at the earliest, but really the off-season after that.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 5, 2020 10:42:40 GMT -5
That's likely, but I feel like the Dodgers would do that anyways and the Red Sox wouldn't. Then again, if Martinez opts out, who knows? The Red Sox could feel Betts just isn't worth 420 million. I feel like it's more appropriate to kill them for this the year after once he gets his money. I suspect JDM will be traded for pennies on the dollar in July when the Red Sox are hopelessly out of the Wild Card race. I think you have it right as far as the Red Sox not valuing Betts for $420 million. Like Big Papi said, the Sox will always value some other team's talent more than their own. Yeah, they'll make an offer to Betts like they did Lester, but like the Cubs blew away their offer the Dodgers will do likewise with Betts. I mean, I don't know how you'd consider Sale, but a lot of people at the time thought they overpaid in extending him. It'll be interesting to see what they do. I bet you JD is gone at the deadline, same as JBJ. They'll have a ton of flexibility. It's just if you believe they'll use it correctly. As of right now, they can afford to reacquire, if they want to.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 5, 2020 10:47:07 GMT -5
I think Aaron Nola and Freddie Freeman are slightly better than that. Plus, you literally can reacquire Betts. From all reports, it literally does not matter where he plays next season. He's going for top dollar. If that's the Red Sox, he's coming back. It won't be. The Red Sox will not be spending the money it takes to sign Betts. It's a fantasy that they will. They did not want to pay him market value. The Dodgers will. Ya know, refusing to hand Mookie his ridiculous non-negotiable "counteroffer" is not an indication of anything but intelligence. That also is not market value.
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Post by incandenza on Feb 5, 2020 10:51:49 GMT -5
That's likely, but I feel like the Dodgers would do that anyways and the Red Sox wouldn't. Then again, if Martinez opts out, who knows? The Red Sox could feel Betts just isn't worth 420 million. I feel like it's more appropriate to kill them for this the year after once he gets his money. I suspect JDM will be traded for pennies on the dollar in July when the Red Sox are hopelessly out of the Wild Card race. I think you have it right as far as the Red Sox not valuing Betts for $420 million. Like Big Papi said, the Sox will always value some other team's talent more than their own. Yeah, they'll make an offer to Betts like they did Lester, but like the Cubs blew away their offer the Dodgers will do likewise with Betts. You don't know that they won't sign Betts and the claim of certainty is irritating. Personally, I recommend a New England-wide boycott of the Red Sox for the full season on the demand that they sign him back - maybe Henry would panic and give in. And "the Sox will always value some other team's talent more than their own" is some magical thinking nonsense. Is this because of Lester? That was 3 GMs ago. Dombrowski, for one, valued the Sox' own free agents too much.
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Post by southernredsoxality on Feb 5, 2020 11:00:35 GMT -5
You guys can blame Dombrowski and Henry all you want, but the fact that Bloom couldn’t even get a couple of low minors lotto tickets thrown in the deal is a really bad sign for me. From what we know so far, it seems the Dodgers had no problem making Verdugo part of the trade so what did Bloom actually negotiate?
I’m interested to see what the other packages were, but it looks like our guy got bullied while trading Mookie freaking Betts away, that’s not a good first impression.
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Post by grandsalami on Feb 5, 2020 11:03:51 GMT -5
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,511
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Post by nomar on Feb 5, 2020 11:13:53 GMT -5
This is the "instead of signing Jon Lester, the money is best spread out to secondary pieces like Pablo Sandoval and Hanley Ramirez" argument. I really hope we aren't trying to convince ourselves that signing a 30 year old Realmuto is a good idea next year.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 5, 2020 11:17:26 GMT -5
You can't say the criticism is misplaced because "at least they got under the cap". That IS the criticism.
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