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Mookie Betts traded as part of a three-team deal
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Post by manfred on Feb 5, 2020 13:12:49 GMT -5
I honestly don’t get the “it is still a good team” argument. Nathan Eovaldi is the #3 starter with no one behind him. They have a subpar OF. The right side of the infield is essentially replacement players. They gave a pretty poor bullpen. And no manager. What is the brightside? I agree. Which is why I'm for this trade. Mookie and Price help, obviously, but they don't hide all the warts. This team's budget was horribly mismanaged and now they need to unload and reload. I don't trust Sale, Eovaldi, Price, and E-Rod staying healthy all season and Perez is a very mediocre pitcher. After them, nothing. They're starting off with no 2B and a questionable 1B. Their catcher I'm not sold on as suddenly being a slugger. Then there's just always freak accidents or things that just pop up like hamstrings. Who would fill in for JD Martinez, Mookie Betts, Xander, or Devers should their top flight guys get hurt? Maybe Devers regresses a bit. They still don't even have a manager. It's a down year. Agree, but... then they should dump old guys first. Even for little return. The fact is, the Mookie trade yielded too little to make the future any brighter as all the 30+ guys just decline even more. So the Sox look at a projection of X, Devers, and Beni in their primes with no one else at high value on this roster and still a poor minor league system. Ugh.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 5, 2020 13:13:48 GMT -5
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 5, 2020 13:14:39 GMT -5
I'm glad I got all of my tantrum throwing out of the way for the last few months leading up to this while everyone kept telling me that we can't just get a 4th round pick for Mookie.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 5, 2020 13:14:53 GMT -5
I'd argue Martin Perez is the #3 starter. (No, that wasn't supposed to make you feel better.) Lest you think I'm kidding, Perez has a 3.5 bWAR over the last four years, Eovaldi has a 2.9. I will always love Eovaldi for what he did in the playoffs, but given the timing, his injury history, and the allocation of resources, that looks like a really horrific signing. I hope he proves me wrong. I expect the offense to continue to be very good, though there are holes. Betts was the Red Sox best player, but he may have only been their fourth-best hitter last year. Bogaerts/Martinez/Devers is a great core, and I expect Benintendi to bounce back. They have a lot of innings to figure out though. This is the other thing where I have to come down on ownership. You can't give your GM the latitude to put you in that kind of bind, and then be so inflexible out getting out of it. If the luxury tax was going to be a priority, and obviously it was, you can't allow Dombrowski to expend the tiny bit of wiggle room you had left in the budget the way he did. This whole Padres thing was clearly an attempt to regain the leverage that was lost when ownership announced this move through a megaphone at the start of the offseason. It also clearly didn't work. I mean, you were able to get them to offer... some kind of deal where the Red Sox pay Wil freakin Myers? No surprise that the Dodgers weren't scared.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 5, 2020 13:16:36 GMT -5
I agree. Which is why I'm for this trade. Mookie and Price help, obviously, but they don't hide all the warts. This team's budget was horribly mismanaged and now they need to unload and reload. I don't trust Sale, Eovaldi, Price, and E-Rod staying healthy all season and Perez is a very mediocre pitcher. After them, nothing. They're starting off with no 2B and a questionable 1B. Their catcher I'm not sold on as suddenly being a slugger. Then there's just always freak accidents or things that just pop up like hamstrings. Who would fill in for JD Martinez, Mookie Betts, Xander, or Devers should their top flight guys get hurt? Maybe Devers regresses a bit. They still don't even have a manager. It's a down year. Agree, but... then they should dump old guys first. Even for little return. The fact is, the Mookie trade yielded too little to make the future any brighter as all the 30+ guys just decline even more. So the Sox look at a projection of X, Devers, and Beni in their primes with no one else at high value on this roster and still a poor minor league system. Ugh. I'm mad that I don't think they will re-sign him, but I'm not willing to rage until he signs that deal. The upside here is that you got 2 very good young kids for a lost season and then you get Betts back. That's my dream of dreams. So, I can't critique and blast ownership and the GM until that's no longer an option or they don't come up with something to make up for the loss of Betts (I will not accept Springer as THE guy).
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 5, 2020 13:25:20 GMT -5
So how does this work? Are you telling me the Dodgers wouldn't throw in a Stripling so we actually had a starter for the season. Your telling me The Dodgers wouldn't give up more than Verdugo and Maeda for Betts and Price at three years and 45 million? Don't give me throw in guys have low value so it's okay This is just like what everyone complained about DD for doing in trades, yet in reverse. He wanted a basically ready replacement for both players and that's all he cared about. This is 100% on Bloom until I see something that say Henry demanded he trade both, which makes zero sense.If Betts gets you under why trade Price and eat over half his deal, thus clogging up our cap for three years? You telling me the Dodgers wouldn't trade Verdugo and Maeda for Betts? I kinda in the camp now go trade guys like Workman, yet do we really want Bloom doing that? The trade could workout just fine, yet it's very risky and he left a ton of the table. This isn't what I mean by be creative. Uh...theres about 208 million reasons why John Henry told him to trade both. Explain that one to me please. Reports have said trading Betts alone gets you under.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 5, 2020 13:30:57 GMT -5
Uh...theres about 208 million reasons why John Henry told him to trade both. Explain that one to me please. Reports have said trading Betts alone gets you under. Probably they were nervous they'd be stuck with Price after 2020 which would make him 35. Maybe internally, they weren't in love with Price going into his twilight years and wanted to move him while they still could. Again, I think this year was/is a clear indication they're punting so any value for 2020 is utterly meaningless. Though, only getting the Dodgers to eat half. That's rough. I admit it feels like something that could have been done at the deadline or in 2021. I'm sure Price will have 16 million dollar value in 2021. I just truly wonder because I doubt Bloom didn't make those calls and the fact that Price opted in means he wasn't going to get his 32 million when teams could have him without costing a prospect.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 5, 2020 13:34:35 GMT -5
I sure hope Bloom is on the phone with the Padres to get Myers for Morejon and Campusano even if we have to take the whole contract. We don't care about having tons of dead money on the cap it seems, let's get some talent. I could even take getting other guys than Campusano, they have a very deep system. Yet we almost need an arm like Morejon now.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 5, 2020 13:35:30 GMT -5
I'm glad I got all of my tantrum throwing out of the way for the last few months leading up to this while everyone kept telling me that we can't just get a 4th round pick for Mookie. Just about nobody wanted Mookie traded. The argument is is Mookie for 2020 and a 4th round pick better than getting more talent and losing him? Honestly the answer to that question is that it's a crapshoot. Like you, I was in favor of keeping Mookie, seeing where the season takes us come July and then fish or cut bait, but it wasn't a slam dunk decision in my mind. I mean, I don't think the Red Sox really broke up a juggernaut. They have flawed pitching and they were not going to improve the team as they were already over budget and unwilling to spend anymore. I mean, really, look around. Other teams have been improving themselves the past couple of years. The Sox have done absolutely nothing to improve. What the hell did they do in 2019 to make themselves better? Nothing. What did they do this offseason before yesterday? Nothing. Hard to compete when your system is thin, injuries inevitably happen - to injury prone pitchers, and you won't spend the money to improve and don't have reinforcements coming up. Could the Sox have made the playoffs? Maybe, and like you I'd be willing to take that chance, but unlike you I can admit that having a championship caliber team was extremely unlikely given all the limitations they had. Other teams have improved themselves. They weren't going to beat the Yankees for the division title and a bunch of other wild card contenders have materialized and have raised the bar for entering the playoffs for the one game coin toss. So I see the other side of let's get more than a draft pick for Mookie. My anger is that the Red Sox acted like this day would never come, never putting themselves in a position to get from under the luxury tax and having to use Mookie to do so. And moreso, not being prepared to give Mookie the market contract he desires. You can't expect everybody to be Tim Wakefield, Jason Varitek, David Ortiz, or Xander Bogaerts and giving out hometown discounts. Mookie is one of the best and easily the most multi-talented player this system has ever produced or will produce. You build around him, no matter no matter what. He's 27 years. A 12 year deal is steep, but maybe it could be negotiated somewhat and maybe by then a $35 million/year annual is what a #3 starter makes by then. If you extend and bend, you do it for Mookie.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 5, 2020 13:38:31 GMT -5
I'm glad I got all of my tantrum throwing out of the way for the last few months leading up to this while everyone kept telling me that we can't just get a 4th round pick for Mookie. Just about nobody wanted Mookie traded. The argument is is Mookie for 2020 and a 4th round pick better than getting more talent and losing him? Honestly the answer to that question is that it's a crapshoot. Like you, I was in favor of keeping Mookie, seeing where the season takes us come July and then fish or cut bait, but it wasn't a slam dunk decision in my mind. I mean, I don't think the Red Sox really broke up a juggernaut. They have flawed pitching and they were not going to improve the team as they were already over budget and unwilling to spend anymore. I mean, really, look around. Other teams have been improving themselves the past couple of years. The Sox have done absolutely nothing to improve. What the hell did they do in 2019 to make themselves better? Nothing. What did they do this offseason before yesterday? Nothing. Hard to compete when your system is thin, injuries inevitably happen - to injury prone pitchers, and you won't spend the money to improve and don't have reinforcements coming up. Could the Sox have made the playoffs? Maybe, and like you I'd be willing to take that chance, but unlike you I can admit that having a championship caliber team was extremely unlikely given all the limitations they had. Other teams have improved themselves. They weren't going to beat the Yankees for the division title and a bunch of other wild card contenders have materialized and have raised the bar for entering the playoffs for the one game coin toss. So I see the other side of let's get more than a draft pick for Mookie. My anger is that the Red Sox acted like this day would never come, never putting themselves in a position to get from under the luxury tax and having to use Mookie to do so. And moreso, not being prepared to give Mookie the market contract he desires. You can't expect everybody to be Tim Wakefield, Jason Varitek, David Ortiz, or Xander Bogaerts and giving out hometown discounts. Mookie is one of the best and easily the most multi-talented player this system has ever produced or will produce. You build around him, no matter no matter what. He's 27 years. A 12 year deal is steep, but maybe it could be negotiated somewhat and maybe by then a $35 million/year annual is what a #3 starter makes by then. If you extend and bend, you do it for Mookie. The Red Sox acted like this day already came when they fired Dombrowski and hired Bloom.
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Post by nomahkid on Feb 5, 2020 13:43:18 GMT -5
I sure hope Bloom is on the phone with the Padres to get Myers for Morejon and Campusano even if we have to take the whole contract. We don't care about having tons of dead money on the cap it seems, let's get some talent. I could even take getting other guys than Campusano, they have a very deep system. Yet we almost need an arm like Morejon now. I love this idea. They have the financial flexibility to eat some money without worrying now, and the farm could definitely use a few extra pieces. Go buy prospects Bloom. ( I am assuming they are still hoping to pay some of his salary to pay down his 13mil CBT salary)
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 5, 2020 13:45:29 GMT -5
Explain that one to me please. Reports have said trading Betts alone gets you under. Probably they were nervous they'd be stuck with Price after 2020 which would make him 35. Maybe internally, they weren't in love with Price going into his twilight years and wanted to move him while they still could. Again, I think this year was/is a clear indication they're punting so any value for 2020 is utterly meaningless. Though, only getting the Dodgers to eat half. That's rough. I admit it feels like something that could have been done at the deadline or in 2021. I'm sure Price will have 16 million dollar value in 2021. I just truly wonder because I doubt Bloom didn't make those calls and the fact that Price opted in means he wasn't going to get his 32 million when teams could have him without costing a prospect. I don't know why you worry about moving him if you will eat over half the contract though. Hamels just got 18 million. You paid down his salary below his market value in my opinion. Can you imagine the teams lining up at the deadline for him if he only had two years 30 million left and you also paid down his remaining salary this year to a few million? I'd understand this if he wasn't pitching so well the last two years, but he was pitching very well. He wasn't Eovaldi! You also took away a bunch of the upside we would have had. Adding the young guy as insurance and our 6th starter. Perez is now our #3.
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Post by incandenza on Feb 5, 2020 14:03:26 GMT -5
I'd argue Martin Perez is the #3 starter. (No, that wasn't supposed to make you feel better.) Lest you think I'm kidding, Perez has a 3.5 bWAR over the last four years, Eovaldi has a 2.9. I will always love Eovaldi for what he did in the playoffs, but given the timing, his injury history, and the allocation of resources, that looks like a really horrific signing. I hope he proves me wrong. I expect the offense to continue to be very good, though there are holes. Betts was the Red Sox best player, but he may have only been their fourth-best hitter last year. Bogaerts/Martinez/Devers is a great core, and I expect Benintendi to bounce back. They have a lot of innings to figure out though. This is the other thing where I have to come down on ownership. You can't give your GM the latitude to put you in that kind of bind, and then be so inflexible out getting out of it. If the luxury tax was going to be a priority, and obviously it was, you can't allow Dombrowski to expend the tiny bit of wiggle room you had left in the budget the way he did. This whole Padres thing was clearly an attempt to regain the leverage that was lost when ownership announced this move through a megaphone at the start of the offseason. It also clearly didn't work. I mean, you were able to get them to offer... some kind of deal where the Red Sox pay Wil freakin Myers? No surprise that the Dodgers weren't scared. My theory is that Dombrowski wasn't supposed to go over last year, but he did by accident because it was just him and La Russa adding up numbers on the back of a cocktail napkin and they screwed up the math, and that's why he got fired.
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Post by patford on Feb 5, 2020 14:12:30 GMT -5
I listened to the podcast and everything Chris and Ian had to say made sense to me. A quick recap. 1. Ian pointed out several times that Verdugo straight up for Betts was a decent return given the circumstances. Keep in mind that Verdugo was the Dodgers #2 prospect in 2018 and is still only 23. 2. The Sox were an 84 win team last year and it's highly unlikely they were going to win the World Series if they had retained Betts and Price. 3. With the Luxury Tax reset the Sox can now seek to resign Betts after the season. 4. Graterol for Price allowed the Sox to get rid of a large (assumed) portion of what was owed to Price in in return they got back a 21 year old pitching prospect who if he starts off in the minors will be the #1 or #2 prospect in the system.
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Post by kevfc89 on Feb 5, 2020 14:13:13 GMT -5
This from Mookie doesn't sound like a guy who'd be unwilling to return to Boston if they give him the best deal next winter.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 5, 2020 14:18:05 GMT -5
This is the other thing where I have to come down on ownership. You can't give your GM the latitude to put you in that kind of bind, and then be so inflexible out getting out of it. If the luxury tax was going to be a priority, and obviously it was, you can't allow Dombrowski to expend the tiny bit of wiggle room you had left in the budget the way he did. This whole Padres thing was clearly an attempt to regain the leverage that was lost when ownership announced this move through a megaphone at the start of the offseason. It also clearly didn't work. I mean, you were able to get them to offer... some kind of deal where the Red Sox pay Wil freakin Myers? No surprise that the Dodgers weren't scared. My theory is that Dombrowski wasn't supposed to go over last year, but he did by accident because it was just him and La Russa adding up numbers on the back of a cocktail napkin and they screwed up the math, and that's why he got fired. End of the day, it's Henry cutting the checks. If he bothered to inquire about the numbers he'd have seen they were destined to go over. If he didn't believe in Sale and Eovaldi, he could have said no.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,511
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Post by nomar on Feb 5, 2020 14:23:20 GMT -5
This from Mookie doesn't sound like a guy who'd be unwilling to return to Boston if they give him the best deal next winter. This means nothing to me. If he wanted to stay he’d be here.
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Post by cardsox on Feb 5, 2020 14:24:08 GMT -5
Yesterday Dan O Dowd was adamant the Dodgers were not going to take Price in any deal, but now he is all aboard saying he was a tremendous get for the Dodgers.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 5, 2020 14:25:09 GMT -5
This from Mookie doesn't sound like a guy who'd be unwilling to return to Boston if they give him the best deal next winter. If only they would.
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Post by incandenza on Feb 5, 2020 14:26:01 GMT -5
My theory is that Dombrowski wasn't supposed to go over last year, but he did by accident because it was just him and La Russa adding up numbers on the back of a cocktail napkin and they screwed up the math, and that's why he got fired. End of the day, it's Henry cutting the checks. If he bothered to inquire about the numbers he'd have seen they were destined to go over. If he didn't believe in Sale and Eovaldi, he could have said no. If my (half-serious) theory were actually correct, I would blame Henry for hiring someone as incompetent as Dombrowski. But I wouldn't blame him for not weighing in on specific free agent signings. I mean really, people, do you want your billionaire owner meddling in individual contract decisions? That's how you get the kind of Steinbrennerism that screwed up the Yankees for decades.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 5, 2020 14:26:56 GMT -5
This from Mookie doesn't sound like a guy who'd be unwilling to return to Boston if they give him the best deal next winter. This means nothing to me. If he wanted to stay he’d be here. He told the Red Sox his terms to stay. You know, I love my job, but if someone is offering me 2/3 more than what I'm making now, I might consider leaving. Everyone has a price. (Except the Red Sox)
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Feb 5, 2020 14:35:45 GMT -5
Still a very sad day. You can be dispassionate about players relative to rpster construction, but this is Mookie Betts we are talking about, I can't blame people for throwing shade at ownership / FO. Hopefully, the move is a pretext to more success.
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Post by wildsox on Feb 5, 2020 14:43:32 GMT -5
I listened to the podcast and everything Chris and Ian had to say made sense to me. A quick recap. 1. Ian pointed out several times that Verdugo straight up for Betts was a decent return given the circumstances. Keep in mind that Verdugo was the Dodgers #2 prospect in 2018 and is still only 23. 2. The Sox were an 84 win team last year and it's highly unlikely they were going to win the World Series if they had retained Betts and Price. 3. With the Luxury Tax reset the Sox can now seek to resign Betts after the season. 4. Graterol for Price allowed the Sox to get rid of a large (assumed) portion of what was owed to Price in in return they got back a 21 year old pitching prospect who if he starts off in the minors will be the #1 or #2 prospect in the system. This exactly! I'm bummed about Mookie leaving and would much rather kept him BUT there's alot more factors that go into this move. If we take a step back for a minute and consider the points being made here it certainly makes things much brighter.
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Post by patford on Feb 5, 2020 14:46:04 GMT -5
If Betts sees Boston as his home and if the Sox really want him then the trade was brilliant. With the Luxury Tax reset the team can spend whatever it takes to resign him. I don't think any team is going to give Betts the deal he was asking the Sox for and playing a full season for the Dodgers might even suppress his perceived value as it is not unlikely his power won't play very well in Dodger stadium.
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Post by incandenza on Feb 5, 2020 14:53:04 GMT -5
If Betts sees Boston as his home and if the Sox really want him then the trade was brilliant. With the Luxury Tax reset the team can spend whatever it takes to resign him. I don't think any team is going to give Betts the deal he was asking the Sox for and playing a full season for the Dodgers might even suppress his perceived value as it is not unlikely his power won't play very well in Dodger stadium. Yes. We are all goldfish and only know the shining present moment, but if the Sox sign Betts in a year all this agita will be forgotten and Bloom will look like a genius.
That doesn't make me less sad now. But it is definitely one possible outcome.
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