nomar
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Post by nomar on Feb 11, 2020 17:22:04 GMT -5
If Downs continues his pace from last year the scouting reports will probably have a bit more of a glow to them.
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Post by wildsox on Feb 11, 2020 17:32:00 GMT -5
I'd wait until you watch him play a game before you start judging his abilities I think a speed score from a reputable source of scouting info is probably a little more bankable than just trying to eyeball it yourself. Yes. That's fair. But it also shows he stole 24 bases last year and 37 in 2018. Not too slow in my opinion. Being bummed out about a prediction that he'll be slower in a few years is what I'm pointing out. For all we know maybe he gets faster.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 11, 2020 17:37:00 GMT -5
Look at how small he was.
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Post by manfred on Feb 11, 2020 18:06:00 GMT -5
Ok, reading the Downs page bums me out even more. I looked at his stolen base numbers and thought he might have a speed/power game. But he may end with average/below average speed? Sigh. I'd wait until you watch him play a game before you start judging his abilities I am trusting the report on the soxprospects page. I may never get to see him play. I can’t watch AA games.
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Post by Smittyw on Feb 11, 2020 18:10:31 GMT -5
Not sure what there is to be "bummed" about here:
Potential solid regular with the ceiling of an impact everyday player/occasional all-star. Bat-first profile with the potential to hit in the .280 range with 20+ home runs at his peak. Defensively, profiles best at second base, but could also play short, third and even the outfield. Lacks a stand-out carrying tool, but will show average-to-better in all five tools. Speed is his weakest tool, but has shown instincts to make up for it. Sum-of-all-parts type of player with a promising future.
So he doesn't have amazing speed? Okay...?
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Feb 11, 2020 19:47:37 GMT -5
Ok, reading the Downs page bums me out even more. I looked at his stolen base numbers and thought he might have a speed/power game. But he may end with average/below average speed? Sigh. Why are you looking at a report that says “ average-to-better in all five tools” and seeing ”average/ below average” speed?
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Post by iakovos11 on Feb 11, 2020 19:57:58 GMT -5
Ok, reading the Downs page bums me out even more. I looked at his stolen base numbers and thought he might have a speed/power game. But he may end with average/below average speed? Sigh. Why are you looking at a report that says “ average-to-better in all five tools” and seeing ”average/ below average” speed? Well, once can look at the return for Betts and be bitter that Betts was traded in the first place and hate everything about the guys that were traded here, or one can view this with open and unbiased mind.
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Post by manfred on Feb 11, 2020 20:20:35 GMT -5
Why are you looking at a report that says “ average-to-better in all five tools” and seeing ”average/ below average” speed? Well, once can look at the return for Betts and be bitter that Betts was traded in the first place and hate everything about the guys that were traded here, or one can view this with open and unbiased mind. I prefer the former. I don’t hate everything about Downs. I do hate the idea that we traded a generational talent for what we did. I don’t think that is closed minded or biased. If Downs is a .280 hitter with 20 HR, that is good. It is also not much off from Chavis in 95 games last year. People can say “hey they did what they could.” I guess. But the team is worse. That is an unbiased view.
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Post by manfred on Feb 11, 2020 20:26:17 GMT -5
Ok, reading the Downs page bums me out even more. I looked at his stolen base numbers and thought he might have a speed/power game. But he may end with average/below average speed? Sigh. Why are you looking at a report that says “ average-to-better in all five tools” and seeing ”average/ below average” speed? Well, the summary says that. But read the capsules: fringe average speed. Average arm that likely makes him only an occasional shortstop. Then potential above-average hit tool, power, and field (at 2B). That all sounds, well, potentially a bit above average. “Lacks a standout carrying tool,” “potential solid regular” etc. sound actually like what I think he’ll be. So I’m not saying he won’t be an ok piece. But a small, not-that-unusual piece.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Feb 11, 2020 20:28:42 GMT -5
Why are you looking at a report that says “ average-to-better in all five tools” and seeing ”average/ below average” speed? Well, the summary says that. But read the capsules: fringe average speed. Average arm that likely makes him only an occasional shortstop. Then potential above-average hit tool, power, and field (at 2B). That all sounds, well, potentially a bit above average. “Lacks a standout carrying tool,” “potential solid regular” etc. sound actually like what I think he’ll be. So I’m not saying he won’t be an ok piece. But a small, not-that-unusual piece. Still not seeing where you got “average/below average” speed.
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Post by manfred on Feb 11, 2020 20:50:06 GMT -5
Well, the summary says that. But read the capsules: fringe average speed. Average arm that likely makes him only an occasional shortstop. Then potential above-average hit tool, power, and field (at 2B). That all sounds, well, potentially a bit above average. “Lacks a standout carrying tool,” “potential solid regular” etc. sound actually like what I think he’ll be. So I’m not saying he won’t be an ok piece. But a small, not-that-unusual piece. Still not seeing where you got “average/below average” speed. I stand corrected. Average. Fringe-average. Huzzah.
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Post by p23w on Feb 11, 2020 22:18:02 GMT -5
Doesn't it seem ironic that Mookie Betts received early "mixed reviews" in large part due to his first name... 6 years later and the name "Mookie" is beloved to the Red Sox nation. Now our beloved Mookie is traded for another for a player whose first name is the same as the last name of an iconic NY player who we could all have done without lo' these last 25 years. I'm glad that Mookie Betts wiped the thought of Mookie Wison from my memory.... I'd be only too happy if Jeter Downs has a long productive career for the Red Sox, and removes some of the sting left by the principal owner of the Marlins.
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Post by grandsalami on Feb 12, 2020 21:44:47 GMT -5
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Post by grandsalami on Feb 12, 2020 22:48:49 GMT -5
The return at the trade deadline would have been enormous
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 13, 2020 1:57:14 GMT -5
This makes me angry when I was calling for it all last season, despite the win streak. What a wasted opportunity.
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Post by bluechip on Feb 13, 2020 2:48:00 GMT -5
The return at the trade deadline would have been enormous Also would have been tougher for fans to stomach.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 13, 2020 8:20:58 GMT -5
The return at the trade deadline would have been enormous Also would have been tougher for fans to stomach. I don't really think so. They were struggling to keep pace with the second Wild Card. The division was out of reach and the WC1 wasn't very realistic. They didn't do anything to fix the warts on the team and I think Sale was hurt despite catching back up. They weren't beating good teams outside of the Rays on that first homestead before losing the next 4 or 5 before the deadline. Outside of this board, there weren't many believers in that team. Then again, I wrote them off after 2 weeks. Just a roundabout way of talking about how this was completely botched by not making this move during the deadline. I would understand it if they traded for pieces to reinforce their roster, but the indecision was inexusable.
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Post by trajanacc on Feb 13, 2020 8:25:22 GMT -5
Easy to say in February that you knew all along how last season was gonna turn out
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 13, 2020 8:28:11 GMT -5
Also would have been tougher for fans to stomach. I don't really think so. They were struggling to keep pace with the second Wild Card. The division was out of reach and the WC1 wasn't very realistic. They didn't do anything to fix the warts on the team and I think Sale was hurt despite catching back up. They weren't beating good teams outside of the Rays on that first homestead before losing the next 4 or 5 before the deadline. Outside of this board, there weren't many believers in that team. Then again, I wrote them off after 2 weeks. Just a roundabout way of talking about how this was completely botched by not making this move during the deadline. I would understand it if they traded for pieces to reinforce their roster, but the indecision was inexusable. I guess? If we're going to play that game, Dombrowski could have just not signed the Sale or (especially) Eovaldi and avoided the whole mess altogether.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 13, 2020 8:37:46 GMT -5
I don't really think so. They were struggling to keep pace with the second Wild Card. The division was out of reach and the WC1 wasn't very realistic. They didn't do anything to fix the warts on the team and I think Sale was hurt despite catching back up. They weren't beating good teams outside of the Rays on that first homestead before losing the next 4 or 5 before the deadline. Outside of this board, there weren't many believers in that team. Then again, I wrote them off after 2 weeks. Just a roundabout way of talking about how this was completely botched by not making this move during the deadline. I would understand it if they traded for pieces to reinforce their roster, but the indecision was inexusable. I guess? If we're going to play that game, Dombrowski could have just not signed the Sale or (especially) Eovaldi and avoided the whole mess altogether. Sale, I didn't like at the time, but I can understand the logic. Eovaldi who I did want to retain was vastly over-paid. Still, those were moves made after winning a championship. This was mid-season of a failing year. What was the point in standing pat when your bullpen has concerns, you have no depth, and your rotation has injury and ineffectiveness? Either try to patch some of it up or sell.
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Feb 13, 2020 8:40:57 GMT -5
I would have been apoplectic.
Do we really know the return would have been better though? I still don't think Lux comes into play. Maybe one of the pitchers. But we also don't necessarily have faith that DDo would have squeezed extra value out, or whether ML-ready return would be of higher value (or whether he'd actually clear payroll).
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Post by a2sox on Feb 13, 2020 8:46:21 GMT -5
Easy to say in February that you knew all along how last season was gonna turn out In redsoxfan2's defense, he whined about the team pretty much every day all season beginning in April
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 13, 2020 8:49:54 GMT -5
I would have been apoplectic. Do we really know the return would have been better though? I still don't think Lux comes into play. Maybe one of the pitchers. But we also don't necessarily have faith that DDo would have squeezed extra value out, or whether ML-ready return would be of higher value (or whether he'd actually clear payroll). DD is under-rated trading away or acquiring pieces. He seems to throw in extra pieces to get a deal done, but he never really seems to lose these deals. I still don't believe in Moncada, but even if he's a stud it's still a wash at worst because of the banner. He architected the second Marlins championship when he had to sell off the first team he won with. Wasn't he the GM when he traded away Andrew Miller from the Tigers when everyone in baseball thought Miller was the next big ace? With a team in the middle of a playoff push and looking to compete the following year, I don't see how that doesn't increase Mookie's value.
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 13, 2020 8:54:51 GMT -5
I would have been apoplectic. Do we really know the return would have been better though? I still don't think Lux comes into play. Maybe one of the pitchers. But we also don't necessarily have faith that DDo would have squeezed extra value out, or whether ML-ready return would be of higher value (or whether he'd actually clear payroll). DD is under-rated trading away or acquiring pieces. He seems to throw in extra pieces to get a deal done, but he never really seems to lose these deals. I still don't believe in Moncada, but even if he's a stud it's still a wash at worst because of the banner. He architected the second Marlins championship when he had to sell off the first team he won with. Wasn't he the GM when he traded away Andrew Miller from the Tigers when everyone in baseball thought Miller was the next big ace? With a team in the middle of a playoff push and looking to compete the following year, I don't see how that doesn't increase Mookie's value. "Dombrowski always wins trades" is a myth that came in 2018 when basically all the people he traded weren't playing well: Moncada and Margot had poor years and Kopech got hurt. At the very least, just about all the teams he traded with are happy with the outcome as well. It's impossible to argue that, in the two biggest deals (Sale and Kimbrel) that the acquiring teams didn't get what they wanted. He was very good at filling a specific hole with the right player, even if it meant trading more than the right value for that player. There's really no evidence at all that he was the right guy to evaluate the value trade-off in one where he was selling.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 13, 2020 9:06:12 GMT -5
DD is under-rated trading away or acquiring pieces. He seems to throw in extra pieces to get a deal done, but he never really seems to lose these deals. I still don't believe in Moncada, but even if he's a stud it's still a wash at worst because of the banner. He architected the second Marlins championship when he had to sell off the first team he won with. Wasn't he the GM when he traded away Andrew Miller from the Tigers when everyone in baseball thought Miller was the next big ace? With a team in the middle of a playoff push and looking to compete the following year, I don't see how that doesn't increase Mookie's value. "Dombrowski always wins trades" is a myth that came in 2018 when basically all the people he traded weren't playing well: Moncada and Margot had poor years and Kopech got hurt. At the very least, just about all the teams he traded with are happy with the outcome as well. It's impossible to argue that, in the two biggest deals (Sale and Kimbrel) that the acquiring teams didn't get what they wanted. He was very good at filling a specific hole with the right player, even if it meant trading more than the right value for that player. There's really no evidence at all that he was the right guy to evaluate the value trade-off in one where he was selling. Just out of curiosity, for his entire career, what trades would you say he either lost or worked out for both sides? The Max Scherzer trade ended up being brilliant. I could be missing something because I truthfully only cared about his tenure in Boston.
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