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Mookie Betts traded as part of a three-team deal
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 10, 2020 22:25:24 GMT -5
Where you more or less sad when Nomar was traded in 2004? I'm genuinely curious, because while I obviously root for the team I don't feel any visceral attachment to professional athletes. Less sad because Nomar was toward the end of the line and there was a lot of dissension between Nomar and management. In fact he had already been traded in Dec or so we thought so there was time to get used to the idea. Still I was sad to see him go and sad that he couldn't be on the field when they won it. I'm glad he got a ring and I'm happy that he technically retired a Red Sox. But I'm sad to see Mookie go because he's one of the most unique and talent players they ever had. They've never had an athlete who was great at everything. I guess Nomar wasn't too far off, but like Yaz before him, he didn't really steal bases or run them the way Mookie can. Mookie is smack dab in the middle of his prime, and ultimately you knew Nomar couldn't really handle SS and spent more days injured than on the field when he was traded. With Mookie's deal, you know that what marginal chance they had to get into the post-season this year is most likely gone and you know that the two players they got won't and can't be what he is now. 2004 Nomar looked far different than 2000 Nomar, but Betts is Betts. It was weird to see Evans in a Red Sox uniform. Had I been old enough I would have hated to see Tony C. in an Angels uniform. I certainly didn't like seeing Mo in an Angels uniform. Nor Freddy Lynn. And every time Fisk would HR against the Bosox, which felt like every other game, it was painful. It was hard seeing Boggs in a Yankees uniform and seeing Clemens leave or Hurst leave. Hated seeing Pedro leave although that was inevitable too. You do get attached to the players. The players are the game and are what is in your memory. David Ortiz provided a ton of memories. I remember Yaz. It's like they're all family but certain players stick out as a Red Sox. Yes, I ultimately root for laundry, but that affiliation isn't always the case. Last year I went to a meaningless game at Fenway against the Giants. Workman was trying to protect a tenuous 5-3 lead in the 9th with the bases loaded, 1 out and Mike Yastrzemski at the plate. For the first time ever at Fenway, I rooted for the Red Sox to lose, or more specifically, I wanted to see Mike Yaz hit a grand slammer because I grew up a Yaz fan and rooting for a Yaz brought back great memories and exceeded the craptitude on the field that I saw. He whiffed and the Sox barely hung on to win, but there's more to the Sox than just laundry to root for. My allegiance will always go to the laundry but the people who wear it matter and they provide the memories which is why I grow attachments. They're family and you don't turn your back on family, even if they do put on pinstripes....well maybe if they do (nah, I still like Luis Tiant, Wade Boggs, and even Johnny Damon).
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Post by p23w on Feb 11, 2020 0:05:37 GMT -5
Where you more or less sad when Nomar was traded in 2004? I'm genuinely curious, because while I obviously root for the team I don't feel any visceral attachment to professional athletes. Less sad because Nomar was toward the end of the line and there was a lot of dissension between Nomar and management. In fact he had already been traded in Dec or so we thought so there was time to get used to the idea. Still I was sad to see him go and sad that he couldn't be on the field when they won it. I'm glad he got a ring and I'm happy that he technically retired a Red Sox. But I'm sad to see Mookie go because he's one of the most unique and talent players they ever had. They've never had an athlete who was great at everything. I guess Nomar wasn't too far off, but like Yaz before him, he didn't really steal bases or run them the way Mookie can. Mookie is smack dab in the middle of his prime, and ultimately you knew Nomar couldn't really handle SS and spent more days injured than on the field when he was traded. With Mookie's deal, you know that what marginal chance they had to get into the post-season this year is most likely gone and you know that the two players they got won't and can't be what he is now. 2004 Nomar looked far different than 2000 Nomar, but Betts is Betts. Nomar was a better hitter than Betts. If not for the wrist injury he would not have been traded (and the Sox might have won the pennant in2003) Betts may have had his career year in 2018 (a-la Ellsbury in 2011). But just as injuries shortened Garciaparra and Ellsbury performance and careers, Betts has been injury free. Yeah he's fun to watch and yeah the RS are a better team with Mookie, but as with Fisk and Lynn and even Jackie Jensen, life goes on. It was weird to see Evans in a Red Sox uniform. Had I been old enough I would have hated to see Tony C. in an Angels uniform. I certainly didn't like seeing Mo in an Angels uniform. Nor Freddy Lynn. And every time Fisk would HR against the Bosox, which felt like every other game, it was painful. It was hard seeing Boggs in a Yankees uniform and seeing Clemens leave or Hurst leave. Hated seeing Pedro leave although that was inevitable too. You do get attached to the players. The players are the game and are what is in your memory. David Ortiz provided a ton of memories. I remember Yaz. It's like they're all family but certain players stick out as a Red Sox. Yes, I ultimately root for laundry, but that affiliation isn't always the case. Last year I went to a meaningless game at Fenway against the Giants. Workman was trying to protect a tenuous 5-3 lead in the 9th with the bases loaded, 1 out and Mike Yastrzemski at the plate. For the first time ever at Fenway, I rooted for the Red Sox to lose, or more specifically, I wanted to see Mike Yaz hit a grand slammer because I grew up a Yaz fan and rooting for a Yaz brought back great memories and exceeded the craptitude on the field that I saw. He whiffed and the Sox barely hung on to win, but there's more to the Sox than just laundry to root for. My allegiance will always go to the laundry but the people who wear it matter and they provide the memories which is why I grow attachments. They're family and you don't turn your back on family, even if they do put on pinstripes....well maybe if they do (nah, I still like Luis Tiant, Wade Boggs, and even Johnny Damon).
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 11, 2020 0:51:14 GMT -5
Right move, but doesn't change the feeling.
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Post by soxjim on Feb 11, 2020 2:09:23 GMT -5
Where you more or less sad when Nomar was traded in 2004? I'm genuinely curious, because while I obviously root for the team I don't feel any visceral attachment to professional athletes. I don't feel any attachments to players either. I wasn't sad with Nomar and not sad regarding Mookie. I'm disappointed in the owner's actions of last year that have led the Sox down this path of basically giving up this season though. The fact they are doing this highlights/magnifies what they did after winning the W/S was all/completely wrong. Nor do I hold it against the owner for wanting to get under the lowest threshold. I just think he should've been more assertive in decision-making spending after the W/S and or throughout the start of last year and through the season. He obviously felt pressure to try again to win it all- but still he could've done things differently.
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Post by libertine on Feb 11, 2020 10:16:33 GMT -5
Generally I am not too upset about players being traded. I view it as part of the game. This is one of those rare exceptions though. I'll get over it but it'll take a while...
Mookie hasn't accomplished as much at this point as these guys did in their careers but for me this would've been like trading Big Papi, Yaz or Rice.
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Post by manfred on Feb 11, 2020 10:34:46 GMT -5
I’ll say this, too: when Nomar got traded, it felt like maybe it was good for him. But also the Sox got back Orlando Cabrera, who is one of my all time favorites. I’ll reserve judgment on Downs... maybe a couple years from now he’s a blast to watch. But I won’t root for Verdugo. That adds a bit of insult to the injury.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Feb 11, 2020 10:39:51 GMT -5
I was at a family party when Nomar was traded. That entire side of the family are big Sox fans. The kids (my cousins and I) were devastated. I’ll never forget that day and I was only 11.
This has to be just as bad for kids that age now. For them I do feel sad. Betts was the number one role model for a lot of kids. Hopefully Devers and Bogaerts ease that pain by keeping up their great play.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Feb 11, 2020 10:54:46 GMT -5
I gave up hockey when Orr left the Bruins in 1976. Never looked back. Also I could barely skate.
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Post by malynn19 on Feb 11, 2020 10:58:43 GMT -5
I was heartbroken (but I was a child) when Lynn (Favorite player of all time) and Fisk were gone, so I was more attached to them then I was with Clemens (2nd) Evans and Boggs (easier to digest as an adult) , but it still hurt. Mo was a sting, but Pedro (3rd) and Nomar (even as they declined) were 2 I wanted to see retired as Red Sox. Only thing that bother me about Damon was going to the MFY and Mookie, love him but... My loyalty is with the Red Sox. And his loyalty is to the Almighty dollar, nothing wrong with that. I just don't want him to have a typical MFY press conference, you know the one when they always say that they "wanted" to be there when we all know it was cause of the highest offer. Mookie, despite his greatness is just a sting.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Feb 11, 2020 11:00:35 GMT -5
"Nomar was a better hitter than Betts." Only for two years, in the last century/ millennium (counting, as one should, the year 2000 as the 1000th year of that millennium). Such a peak at age 25 and then 26.
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 11, 2020 11:03:06 GMT -5
Part of what made the Nomar trade feel sad was it kind of capped the 1 1/2-year long realization that he wasn't as good as he used to be.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Feb 11, 2020 11:04:48 GMT -5
Fisk was a shock. Just through incompetence.
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Post by soxin8 on Feb 11, 2020 11:29:02 GMT -5
I have read 4 scouting reports on Downs. You would question if the scouts were discussing the same player. I know right? One of the most polarizing prospects I've seen in ages. MLB has him 44th. BP had him 8th on the Dodgers and way outside the top 101. Did anyone besides me think of another Sox player when reading his report? SS/2B who could play CF/RF, some speed and power with an above average hit tool? I am not saying he is going to turn into Mookie but when Betts was in the minors, nobody was predicting he was going to win an MVP. I thought in his interview he came across as a humble person who was receptive to coaching and would work hard, just a good player to root for.
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Post by chr31ter on Feb 11, 2020 11:40:32 GMT -5
I was generally in favor of the trade, but I have to admit, when I logged on to the Red Sox' roster page this morning and saw a picture of Alex Verdugo - it was jarring.
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Post by oldfaithful2019 on Feb 11, 2020 11:55:18 GMT -5
I know right? One of the most polarizing prospects I've seen in ages. MLB has him 44th. BP had him 8th on the Dodgers and way outside the top 101. Did anyone besides me think of another Sox player when reading his report? SS/2B who could play CF/RF, some speed and power with an above average hit tool? I am not saying he is going to turn into Mookie but when Betts was in the minors, nobody was predicting he was going to win an MVP. I thought in his interview he came across as a humble person who was receptive to coaching and would work hard, just a good player to root for. My mind keeps going back to Willie Randolph when the Yankees got him from Pittsburgh back in the day. A real coup for them. I like where your mind is headed more though
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Post by manfred on Feb 11, 2020 12:09:30 GMT -5
I know right? One of the most polarizing prospects I've seen in ages. MLB has him 44th. BP had him 8th on the Dodgers and way outside the top 101. Did anyone besides me think of another Sox player when reading his report? SS/2B who could play CF/RF, some speed and power with an above average hit tool? I am not saying he is going to turn into Mookie but when Betts was in the minors, nobody was predicting he was going to win an MVP. I thought in his interview he came across as a humble person who was receptive to coaching and would work hard, just a good player to root for. Ummm... no. I don’t see it. Mookie devoured the minors. At 19, he got his feet wet with a meh season at Lowell and then took off like a rocket. By 21, he HAD to be in Boston, and that was all she wrote. Downs might be good, and, hell, he might be great. But he is no Mookie comp. I’m not even talking about careers... it is just Mookie’s tear from who-is-he to insane prospect was a rare explosion for a mostly unheralded pick.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 11, 2020 12:23:49 GMT -5
This should go without saying but racism of any sort isn't going to be tolerated. Thank you for your time.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 11, 2020 12:27:41 GMT -5
My friend is good friends with Verdugo. From the social media I’ve seen he seems like a goof ball more than anything. Some of this stuff I’m reading here is so ridiculously outrageous
He watched and allegedly filmed 2 drunk girls fighting when he was 18. He missed a meeting. Couple that with tattoos and Mexico and he’s for sure a serial killer
Not that it’s even relevant but Aaron Hernandez isn’t even Mexican, jfc
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 11, 2020 14:13:17 GMT -5
This should go without saying but racism of any sort isn't going to be tolerated. Thank you for your time. To add, the poster in question has been banned. No room for that here.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 11, 2020 14:19:49 GMT -5
"Nomar was a better hitter than Betts." Only for two years, in the last century/ millennium (counting, as one should, the year 2000 as the 1000th year of that millennium). Such a peak at age 25 and then 26. It's more like Betts only had one season better than Nomar with his bat his epic 2018 season. Through age 26 only counting full seasons Nomar had three years of an OPS+ at or above 140, Betts only had one. Age 23-26 Betts OPS+ 140.5, Nomar 143 and it's only that close because of Betts monster 2018 numbers. Nomar got better for 4 straight years, then got injured and was never the same. That isn't even taking into account Nomar was a SS and Betts plays the OF, which makes a massive difference. I love Betts, but Nomar is hands down the best hitter I ever got to see play. Watching him flirt with .400 was unreal. Yet it also shows how one injury can destroy a career.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 11, 2020 14:45:39 GMT -5
I know right? One of the most polarizing prospects I've seen in ages. MLB has him 44th. BP had him 8th on the Dodgers and way outside the top 101. Did anyone besides me think of another Sox player when reading his report? SS/2B who could play CF/RF, some speed and power with an above average hit tool? I am not saying he is going to turn into Mookie but when Betts was in the minors, nobody was predicting he was going to win an MVP. I thought in his interview he came across as a humble person who was receptive to coaching and would work hard, just a good player to root for. Uh speak for yourself. When Mookie had his 70 game on base streak, people were noticing a whole lot. I happened to catch a game against the Durham Bulls when he was in AAA for like 2 weeks and told everyone that would listen to me how great he was going to be. I talked about him to my girlfriend for over a year when he was in the minors. He was OPS'ing close to 1.000 for 2 seasons while stealing 30-40 bases. I absolutely had MVP aspirations (Mike Trout aside) for him and it would have been disappointing if he didn't turn out exactly how he did.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Feb 11, 2020 15:42:43 GMT -5
Yeah, once we were able to get a look at him, and that happened for me when he was in the minors thanks to video clips, it was easy to see Betts was special. The bat-speed was absurd and it promised a lot - and a lot has been delivered. He's young enough here may have a few more Nomar-like seasons in him.
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Post by manfred on Feb 11, 2020 15:49:07 GMT -5
Ok, reading the Downs page bums me out even more. I looked at his stolen base numbers and thought he might have a speed/power game. But he may end with average/below average speed? Sigh.
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Post by wildsox on Feb 11, 2020 16:13:34 GMT -5
Ok, reading the Downs page bums me out even more. I looked at his stolen base numbers and thought he might have a speed/power game. But he may end with average/below average speed? Sigh. I'd wait until you watch him play a game before you start judging his abilities
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 11, 2020 17:10:14 GMT -5
Ok, reading the Downs page bums me out even more. I looked at his stolen base numbers and thought he might have a speed/power game. But he may end with average/below average speed? Sigh. I'd wait until you watch him play a game before you start judging his abilities I think a speed score from a reputable source of scouting info is probably a little more bankable than just trying to eyeball it yourself.
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