SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
2013 Non-Sox MLB Discussion
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 10, 2013 15:42:41 GMT -5
It's apalling that Loria is still allowed to own that team. He's a disgrace to the sport. Somehow MLB is ok with him, but they were talking about taking the Dodgers away from McCourt and wouldn't let what-his-face-Maverics-owner buy a team. One of MLB's major cash cows over the past decade plus has been publicly financed stadiums (think about that for a minute), and Loria has done as much as any owner to get one of those built. So it's no surprise to me, really.
|
|
|
Post by mredsox89 on Apr 10, 2013 16:03:06 GMT -5
The problem is that usually the publicly financed stadiums come with understandings that the team will do what it can to remain at least relatively competitive. But it's not even just that he got a publicly financed stadium. As you said, that seems to be a relatively regular occurrence. But everything surrounding the entire process was essentially a giant scam, with fraud etc. build in through the whole thing. They "lied" to the city, claiming that their estimates had them drawing 30K fans per game for multiple years. Now if you asked anyone in Miami if this was actually possible (I've lived there for the past 5 years and spend half my time there now) they would have said HAHAHA. Teams don't draw long term support down there. The Heat have, because they have the best team in the league. But when they're not ultra competitive, attendance plummets. Panthers have absolutely no support, whether they win or lose. Dolphins have support because it's the NFL and you have to punch fans in the face to convince them not to go, but even they've had local support start to fall in the last 5 years because they haven't consistently been competitive.
That doesn't even go into the fact that Loria essentially threw the University of Miami and their stadium plans under the bus with his guaranteed positive business plan. The Canes don't draw like the Dolphins, few college teams can compete, especially in a city with an NFL team. But they certainly draw more than the Marlins ever have and ever will. The city had essentially agreed to put a few hundred million into redoing the Orange Bowl, but then Loria came in and "convinced" the city to spend $500M and build him a custom stadium. They tore down the existing OB and rebuilt on top of it. Canes now stuck playing an hour from campus at Dolphin Stadium, while Loria sits back and reaps in the profits from a nearly empty stadium. I'm bitter since I'm a Cane guy, but this was all known when the initial bidding process was going on. Everyone that had any idea said this was going to happen, and everyone was stunned when the city decided to finance this project, which by accounts will cose Miami-Dade County $2 BILLION by the time it's paid off with interest
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Apr 10, 2013 19:34:35 GMT -5
Yet, Loria gets the blame... It's the cities fault. I bet those same people get re-elected.
|
|
|
Post by elguapo on Apr 10, 2013 19:43:04 GMT -5
Yet, Loria gets the blame... It's the cities fault. I bet those same people get re-elected. I believe at least some of them were recalled.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 10, 2013 19:53:01 GMT -5
Yet, Loria gets the blame... It's the cities fault. I bet those same people get re-elected. First off, I don't care. Just because I happen to leave my front door unlocked doesn't mean you aren't a criminal for stealing all my stuff. There's something so very ugly and cruel about victim-blaming. It doesn't reflect well on a person. Second, it's not like this was something the voters/legislators were clamoring for a publicly funded stadium. It came as the result of years and years of lies, arm-twisting, naked threats and ultimatums from Loria and MLB itself: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlins_Park#Negotiations_and_possible_relocation*** Sound familiar?
|
|
|
Post by jclmontana on Apr 10, 2013 20:29:33 GMT -5
Yet, Loria gets the blame... It's the cities fault. I bet those same people get re-elected. First off, I don't care. Just because I happen to leave my front door unlocked doesn't mean you aren't a criminal for stealing all my stuff. There's something so very ugly and cruel about victim-blaming. It doesn't reflect well on a person. Victim Blaming? What are you talking about? RJP is pretty clearly saying that the city officials, (the ones that have to be reelected) also share blame. And from the link you posted, the voters of Miami-Dade County seem to have agreed: "On March 15, 2011, Miami-Dade County voters ousted Mayor Carlos Alvarez in a recall election, for his backing the ballpark and pushing for a higher property-tax rate. His manager George Burgess, who helped engineer the deal, left soon thereafter. County Commissioner Natacha Seijas was recalled alongside Alvarez for largely the same reasons. The recall effort was led by the same billionaire who lost his legal challenge to the park's financing plan back in 2008, Norman Braman. A vocal opponent of the stadium deal, former commissioner Carlos A. Giménez, succeeded Alvarez as county mayor after a special election was held on June 28, 2011.[2][40]"
|
|
|
Post by charliezink16 on Apr 10, 2013 21:28:54 GMT -5
@minorleagueblog: Apparently #Cubs Jorge Soler rushed the Clearwater Dugout with a Bat tonight while playing at High-A Daytona He was ejected Stay tuned. #WOW
Looking forward to seeing the video on this one...
|
|
|
Post by elguapo on Apr 10, 2013 22:03:26 GMT -5
Just because I happen to leave my front door unlocked doesn't mean you aren't a criminal for stealing all my stuff. There's something so very ugly and cruel about victim-blaming. It doesn't reflect well on a person. Second, it's not like this was something the voters/legislators were clamoring for a publicly funded stadium. It came as the result of years and years of lies, arm-twisting, naked threats and ultimatums from Loria and MLB itself: I don't know whether the above is motivated by naivete or stupidity. What the politicians did was not "leave the door unlocked". It was not even to send their money to the heir to the Nigerian throne. They sent other peoples' money, the taxpayers' money, to the Nigerian scam artist. The voters chose politicians who then turned around and screwed them. "But...but... MLB told them the city would collapse if they didn't!" Wake. Up. That's not an excuse. They should have waved goodbye and told Loria to hit the road and five years later MLB would be begging to get back into that market, this time with a decent ownership group.
|
|
|
Post by mredsox89 on Apr 10, 2013 22:07:16 GMT -5
They sent other people's $ to the Nigerian scam artist knowing that it was being sent to a Nigerian scam artist
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 10, 2013 22:23:30 GMT -5
I don't know whether the above is motivated by naivete or stupidity. What the politicians did was not "leave the door unlocked". It was not even to send their money to the heir to the Nigerian throne. They sent other peoples' money, the taxpayers' money, to the Nigerian scam artist. The voters chose politicians who then turned around and screwed them. "But...but... MLB told them the city would collapse if they didn't!" Wake. Up. That's not an excuse. They should have waved goodbye and told Loria to hit the road and five years later MLB would be begging to get back into that market, this time with a decent ownership group. I'm not impressed by the politicians failures to rebut Loria/MLB, but I do place far more blame on the people actually pushing the scam in the first place. And blaming the voters is just sick.
|
|
|
Post by elguapo on Apr 10, 2013 23:57:34 GMT -5
And blaming the voters is just sick. The majority of voters gets the government they deserve. Even if Loria leaves at some point it'll be after making a killing - I assume the franchise went way up in value based on the revenue potential of the new park.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 11, 2013 0:51:52 GMT -5
The majority of voters gets the government they deserve. Yeah, I know that cliche too. I think people deserve better. It's not their fault they've been misinformed, badly educated, and flat out lied too their entire lives.
|
|
|
Post by Oregon Norm on Apr 11, 2013 4:43:26 GMT -5
And blaming the voters is just sick. The majority of voters gets the government they deserve. Even if Loria leaves at some point it'll be after making a killing - I assume the franchise went way up in value based on the revenue potential of the new park. The majority of voters get to watch as their elected officials are bribed and blackmailed into submission by a system that equates money to free speech. Pick an issue and check out the polls. The voters quite often go off in one direction, and the politicians follow the money trail in the other. That drift away from democracy has created a powerful backlash. But it will take time. Google Move to Amend to find out more. Meanwhile a little sympathy for the voters of South Florida. The development monster that's been created works very hard to steamroll everything in its path. Its been almost impossible to stop.
|
|
|
Post by raftsox on Apr 11, 2013 7:45:10 GMT -5
Vote Libertarian?
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Apr 11, 2013 8:20:08 GMT -5
The majority of voters gets the government they deserve. Yeah, I know that cliche too. I think people deserve better. It's not their fault they've been misinformed, badly educated, and flat out lied too their entire lives. You can't blame the voters as a whole because its's not a singular entity. Most voters get what they want, it's just not what I feel this country is supposed to be all about. Once you make a dog fat and lazy, it's hard to whip him back into shape tho. Forgetting about that though... Baseball in Miami should be dead. Square peg, round hole. There is plenty of blame to go around. It just shouldn't go in one place. If you leave your keys in the ignition, with the windows down in your new sports car and let it sit overnight in te ghetto. The people who steal it are still criminals, but you are a moron.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 11, 2013 8:45:17 GMT -5
Victim Blaming? What are you talking about? RJP is pretty clearly saying that the city officials, (the ones that have to be reelected) also share blame. And from the link you posted, the voters of Miami-Dade County seem to have agreed: "On March 15, 2011, Miami-Dade County voters ousted Mayor Carlos Alvarez in a recall election, for his backing the ballpark and pushing for a higher property-tax rate. His manager George Burgess, who helped engineer the deal, left soon thereafter. County Commissioner Natacha Seijas was recalled alongside Alvarez for largely the same reasons. The recall effort was led by the same billionaire who lost his legal challenge to the park's financing plan back in 2008, Norman Braman. A vocal opponent of the stadium deal, former commissioner Carlos A. Giménez, succeeded Alvarez as county mayor after a special election was held on June 28, 2011.[2][40]"
I think we're talking past each other here... What I'm addressing is the idea held by some that the citizens of Miami-Dade somehow "deserve" to have their tax dollars redistributed to Jeffry Loria because they voted for the politicians who allowed it to happen. I don't think anyone deserves that regardless of how bad their voting decisions might have been, but more to the point, what you've quoted puts the lie to the idea that the voters wanted this in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by jclmontana on Apr 11, 2013 10:57:07 GMT -5
There is no block of voters, there are many blocks of voters. Some voters certainly wanted the stadium, and they were either had or were naive about Loria and his intentions. The important point is not really about Loria, who is clearly ownership scum, but the role MLB played in strong-arming a new stadium. I don't think anyone in MLB leadership is stupid per se, but in backing Loria for a new stadium, it seems as they badly misjudged, winning the battle but damaging their credibility in the process. Loria's "leadership" of the Marlins is a black-eye on the sport and has severely damaged the brand in South Florida. Or maybe MLB has badly misjudged Florida as a major-league market. My guess (hope?) is that MLB is getting near the end of it's patience with Loria, and Selig has already sat Loria down, Godfather style, and told him to run a competent MLB franchise or expect to be forced out. Of course Loria will probably net few hundred million in the process of selling out, so it would not be a much of a threat, but it seems really clear that Loria is an open sore that needs to be excised for the good of the sport. Well, that solves that problem, time for second breakfast!
|
|
|
Post by mredsox89 on Apr 12, 2013 3:10:06 GMT -5
What a mess in the SD/LAD game tonight. Greinke plunks Carlos Quentin on a 3-2 pitch in a 1 run game, Quentin charges the mound, brawl ensues, Greinke snaps his collarbone and is out 6-8 weeks. Regardless of their "history", which Quentin claims to be a lot, he's not trying to hit you in a 1 run game. Greinke also lowered his shoulder when Quentin charged at him, which is how he got hurt, so that was just dumb
|
|
|
Post by jdb on Apr 12, 2013 8:07:40 GMT -5
What a mess in the SD/LAD game tonight. Greinke plunks Carlos Quentin on a 3-2 pitch in a 1 run game, Quentin charges the mound, brawl ensues, Greinke snaps his collarbone and is out 6-8 weeks. Regardless of their "history", which Quentin claims to be a lot, he's not trying to hit you in a 1 run game. Greinke also lowered his shoulder when Quentin charged at him, which is how he got hurt, so that was just dumb They said it was the 4th time Greinke(45 career HBPs) has hit Quentin and to me it throws up red flags regardless of the game situation especially when you factor in Greinke has some of the best control/command in the game. I dont really know how to word this and Im not happy Greinke broke his collar bone and is out for a month or so but batters always run the risk of injury when pitchers hit them. WMBs last year and Drew (granted it was ST) are just two examples.
|
|
|
Post by elguapo on Apr 12, 2013 8:30:33 GMT -5
Regardless of their "history", which Quentin claims to be a lot, he's not trying to hit you in a 1 run game. Carlos Quentin, you are too stupid even for baseball. Go home.
|
|
|
Post by rangoon82 on Apr 12, 2013 9:24:03 GMT -5
That broken collarbone is on AJ Ellis. He should have stepped in front of Quentin as soon as he took his first step to the mound. Crash Davis would have been ashamed.
|
|
|
Post by bluechip on Apr 12, 2013 10:13:30 GMT -5
They said it was the 4th time Greinke(45 career HBPs) has hit Quentin and to me it throws up red flags regardless of the game situation especially when you factor in Greinke has some of the best control/command in the game. This is true, and its not like it was the 8th inning. Also remember that Marquis threw high and tight to Marquis earlier in the game, so throwing high and tight to Quentin was not exactly out of the blue.
|
|
|
Post by iakovos11 on Apr 12, 2013 11:42:31 GMT -5
They said it was the 4th time Greinke(45 career HBPs) has hit Quentin and to me it throws up red flags regardless of the game situation especially when you factor in Greinke has some of the best control/command in the game. This is true, and its not like it was the 8th inning. Also remember that Marquis threw high and tight to Marquis earlier in the game, so throwing high and tight to Quentin was not exactly out of the blue. The last time he hit was 2009, though. C'mom. And is there some reason he has hit him 4 times now - over how many years? Is it just coincidence? Charging the mound is just a stupid move in any event. I agree with Mattingly (I hate to say those words), the suspension for Quentin should be until Grienke can pitch again.
|
|
|
Post by iakovos11 on Apr 12, 2013 11:44:23 GMT -5
That broken collarbone is on AJ Ellis. He should have stepped in front of Quentin as soon as he took his first step to the mound. Crash Davis would have been ashamed. The point was made on ESPN this morning that as baseball players you can tell when someone is hit intentionally. Ellis didn't get out in front because Quentin wasn't hit intentionally and he had no notion that he would charge the mound. I think it caught him off guard.
|
|
|
Post by jdb on Apr 12, 2013 14:27:19 GMT -5
Suspending him until Grenkie gets back opens a Pandora's box. We should then suspend pitchers when they hit batters and break wrists,ankles or give them a concussion. Wasn't Quentin hit in the first game of the series and missed game two bc of it? Did Matingly call a presser saying his pitcher should get a game?
|
|
|