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2013 Non-Sox MLB Discussion
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 12, 2013 14:45:47 GMT -5
I agree with Mattingly (I hate to say those words), the suspension for Quentin should be until Grienke can pitch again. What is this, Hammurabi's code? I have no idea why those two things should be linked.
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Post by bluechip on Apr 12, 2013 14:57:10 GMT -5
That broken collarbone is on AJ Ellis. He should have stepped in front of Quentin as soon as he took his first step to the mound. Crash Davis would have been ashamed. The point was made on ESPN this morning that as baseball players you can tell when someone is hit intentionally. Ellis didn't get out in front because Quentin wasn't hit intentionally and he had no notion that he would charge the mound. I think it caught him off guard. As soon as Quentin started walking towards the pitcher, Ellis needed to stand up and get in from of him. Ellis had plenty of time to react.
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Post by iakovos11 on Apr 12, 2013 15:34:14 GMT -5
I agree with Mattingly (I hate to say those words), the suspension for Quentin should be until Grienke can pitch again. What is this, Hammurabi's code? I have no idea why those two things should be linked. Maybe. But this stuff needs to be dealt with seriously. As much as I love the entertainment value in a bench clearer, this stuff shouldn't be part of the game - that's what hockey is for. So the actions, during a fight, of a member of one team, lands a top pitcher for a division rival on the IR for perhaps 2-3 months, and the other player - a key player - gets to keep helping his team win. Not sure how that makes sense. A hit batter is a part of the game, charging the mound is not.
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Post by iakovos11 on Apr 12, 2013 15:36:14 GMT -5
Yeah, it does look Ellis could have reacted quicker. But I think Quentin charging the mound was the last thing he expected. Maybe you always need to expect that as a catcher.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Apr 12, 2013 15:42:53 GMT -5
so if the pitch a pitcher throws hits a player in the head or in the wrist/hand should the pitchers be sideline for whatever the time the batter is injured too?
Greinke should not have lowered his shoulder. That was stupid.
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Post by beasleyrockah on Apr 12, 2013 15:43:03 GMT -5
What is this, Hammurabi's code? I have no idea why those two things should be linked. Maybe. But this stuff needs to be dealt with seriously. As much as I love the entertainment value in a bench clearer, this stuff shouldn't be part of the game - that's what hockey is for. So the actions, during a fight, of a member of one team, lands a top pitcher for a division rival on the IR for perhaps 2-3 months, and the other player - a key player - gets to keep helping his team win. Not sure how that makes sense. A hit batter is a part of the game, charging the mound is not. But it HAS been a part of the game. Guys have recently charged the mound and haven't been suspended for over a month. Changing protocol because of a freak injury isn't fair to Quentin. If they want to take it out of the game moving forward fine, but don't make it up as you go.
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Post by grandsalami on Apr 12, 2013 15:48:49 GMT -5
Michael S. Schmidt ?@michaelsschmidt13m MLB has uncovered evidence that a rep of A-Rod arranged to have documents purchased from a South Florida anti aging clinic
Michael S. Schmidt ?@michaelsschmidt12m MLB felt motivated to buy documents from other clinic employees after learning that A-Rod had arranged to purchase dox
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 12, 2013 16:11:21 GMT -5
By the way, I keep hearing that we need steroids testing in sports for The Children. We need athletes to be clean because they're roll models for The Children. But apparently it's totally cool to teach the children that punching a dude in the face is "part of the game", and an acceptable way for adults to conduct themselves? It's ridiculous. As far as I'm concerned, if steroids net you a 50 game suspension fighting on the field should be AT LEAST that. The punishment should be severe and consistant, not just when someone expensive happens to be seriously injured, because every time this happens you're risking serious injury.
I also don't like the idea that the punishment should be worse because Grienke is an important player. What, if you're Grienke no one can touch you, but if you're some mop-up reliever, yeah, whatever, we don't care if you get your face punched in? THAT'S the standard? I mean, granted, that would teach kids a very accurate lesson about justice in America, but still...
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Post by rangoon82 on Apr 12, 2013 17:49:05 GMT -5
Maybe you always need to expect that as a catcher. I think if you're not physically holding him back immediately, you are at least either positioning yourself between the pitcher and hitter or putting yourself in a position for a quick intervention, right?
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Post by mainesox on Apr 12, 2013 18:11:40 GMT -5
I've long believed that charging the mound is a ridiculous, and mostly needless part of the game, and I think that any time a player charges the mound - or a pitcher hits a batter intentionally - the penalty should be stiffer than it always has been, but what Quentin did goes beyond the typical batter charging the mound, what Quentin did was assault Greinke. Quentin (who has been hit more than anyone in the game since 2008) was crowding the plate as usual, and didn't even attempt to get out of the way (in fact, he leaned into the pitch), so it was pretty obvious that Quentin was just looking for a reason to charge the mound.
That's to say nothing of the fact that there is a nearly 0% chance it was even remotely intentional; not with a one run lead when he'd already thrown enough pitches to get him to a full count (if he were going to hit him it would have been a lot earlier in the AB). And the pitch was close enough to the strike zone that 10,000 pitches thrown in the same spot would normally result in 2 HBPs (.02% of the time per FanGraphs).
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Post by pedroelgrande on Apr 12, 2013 18:11:51 GMT -5
By the way, I keep hearing that we need steroids testing in sports for The Children. We need athletes to be clean because they're roll models for The Children. We are the world, we are the children!!
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Post by chavopepe2 on Apr 12, 2013 19:55:34 GMT -5
So the Brewers have Yuniesky Betencourt and Alex Gonzalez in the same lineup and neither is playing SS (1B and 3B). Are there really no better options there corner infield spots?
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Post by tns on Apr 12, 2013 20:41:17 GMT -5
So the Brewers have Yuniesky Betencourt and Alex Gonzalez in the same lineup and neither is playing SS (1B and 3B). Are there really no better options there corner infield spots? They've been gutted by injuries early on (Hart, Gamel, Aramis Ramirez). Alex Gonzalez got hit on the hand with a pitch tonight too so now they've got Blake Lalli (their 3rd catcher) and Betancourt at the corners.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 12, 2013 20:52:55 GMT -5
so if the pitch a pitcher throws hits a player in the head or in the wrist/hand should the pitchers be sideline for whatever the time the batter is injured too? Greinke should not have lowered his shoulder. That was stupid. If Greinke kept his mouth shut, he wouldn't have gotten charged. Not saying it justifies it, but just shut the hell up and your collar bone is fine.
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Post by grandsalami on Apr 12, 2013 21:20:16 GMT -5
Jose Reyes left on a stretcher
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Post by bluechip on Apr 12, 2013 21:37:06 GMT -5
but what Quentin did goes beyond the typical batter charging the mound, what Quentin did was assault Greinke. I mean, it was not that different than most times a batter charges the mound. The difference this time was that Greinke thought it was a good idea to meet that charge with his own shoulder instead of backing up, playing defense and waiting for his fielders to deck Quentin. If you remember the Izzy Alcantara charging incident, the pitcher did not get touched because he played defense and Izzy was tackled.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Apr 12, 2013 21:53:24 GMT -5
They're dropping like flies, and along with them, the big dreams those players represent. I thought that Reyes was the most important part of that trade, and he looked like just that when the Sox visited Toronto. He's been lights out since he came back from a previous injury. Hope its not serious.
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Post by bluechip on Apr 12, 2013 23:03:48 GMT -5
The Blue Jays are saying Reyes could be out 1-3 months.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Apr 13, 2013 0:00:43 GMT -5
I agree with Mattingly (I hate to say those words), the suspension for Quentin should be until Grienke can pitch again. What is this, Hammurabi's code? I have no idea why those two things should be linked. No, it's just baseball. Starts with a guy throwing a hard ball about two feet from your head, an object that can break your bones and crush your cheek if it's mis-located. It's an act of controlled mayhem and we shouldn't be surprised that, every once in a while, real mayhem breaks loose. So I checked it out and, for all the time on the disabled list, Quentin has been hit 60 times in three years. During the first game of the series, when he was hit hard enough that he missed the second game, Vin Scully went on and on, before he was plunked, about how many times the guy gets hit. No secrets in this part of the baseball world, I guess. Maybe they talk about that in the clubhouse? Turns out he's never charged the mound either... till last night that is. He did come close against Greinke back in 2009. The ump jumped between he and the pitcher then. He's a very laid back guy and that may have played into this. You figure he'd never done it in the 100+ times he's been hit, he wasn't going to do it now. That's a tactical mistake on Greinke's part if there was intent. If not the cursing sure was. And he made an even bigger blunder in trying to neutralize the 240 lb. ex-linebacker by lowering his shoulder into him. I suppose that, having hit him then antagonized him, he had to stand his ground. That was a mistake. Quentin is soft-spoken and intelligent. Matt Kemp, who confronted him outside the stadium where they had to be separated, hit on that by saying that despite his degree from Stanford he didn't seem to understand that, given the circumstance, there was no way Greinke was trying to hit him. I believe that Kemp, Greinke, Mattingly and the rest of the Dodgers completely miss the point, or that they're willfully ignoring it. Quentin finally had it and he was going to send a message, which he did at Greinke's foolish expense, and to the Dodgers' chagrin. I've seen it time and time again. People badly misjudge other people, convincing themselves that they don't have any fight in them. That can be a serious mistake. It sure was this time. Carlos Quentin has a rep for crowding the plate, as does Youkilis. That certainly plays into it. Nevertheless, I'll be interested to see how many times he's hit this year. I don't like the fighting either, but given that initial act of mayhem the antagonism is built into the game. It isn't going to stop. For Mattingly to say there should be some sort of tit-for-tat based on injury time is pure horseshit and he knows it. That's not the way Mattingly and his buddies played it. It's not the way the game's ever been played.
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Post by jclmontana on Apr 13, 2013 10:34:05 GMT -5
I agree that Greinke should not have lowered his shoulder, but it looked like a natural, if ill-advised action. If one is not fighting on a pretty regular basis, it is very difficult to remember how to respond when attacked, even with training.
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Post by tns on Apr 13, 2013 12:14:00 GMT -5
I agree that Greinke should not have lowered his shoulder, but it looked like a natural, if ill-advised action. If one is not fighting on a pretty regular basis, it is very difficult to remember how to respond when attacked, even with training. Greinke squared up his body and lowered his left shoulder to protect his throwing arm from Quentin charging at him. From Greinke's perspective as a pitcher, it's understandable that his first instinct was to protect his meal ticket. It's unfortunate that he had to get hurt while protecting himself from an incident that could have been avoided.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 13, 2013 13:08:32 GMT -5
I agree that Greinke should not have lowered his shoulder, but it looked like a natural, if ill-advised action. If one is not fighting on a pretty regular basis, it is very difficult to remember how to respond when attacked, even with training. I dunno. Every time I watch that GIF I can't help but think that I dropped my shoulder into a dude like that a thousand times in my rubgy playing days and I never broke anything. I was always taught that if you're going to collide with a guy, you should lead with the shoulder/elbow/hip combo on your side, protecting the face/belly/genitals combo on your front. I guess the better option would be to avoid any collision in the first place, but at the same time it doesn't look like the kind of hit that should have caused a broken bone. Seems like bad luck more than anything to me.
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Post by Don Caballero on Apr 13, 2013 13:37:02 GMT -5
Baseball is a moronic sport. So Greinke is allowed to throw a goddamn rock at someone but the guy who's hit has no right to go after him for that? I mean, would we be having this discussion if Greinke had hit Quentin in the head giving him a concussion?
One should never charge with the bat. But I have absolutely no problem with what Quentin did.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 13, 2013 13:58:06 GMT -5
Baseball is a moronic sport. So Greinke is allowed to throw a goddamn rock at someone but the guy who's hit has no right to go after him for that? I mean, would we be having this discussion if Greinke had hit Quentin in the head giving him a concussion? One should never charge with the bat. But I have absolutely no problem with what Quentin did. That ALSO shouldn't be allowed. And it's pretty tightly policed these days. And by the way, "he hit me first" does not get you off an assault charge. It doesn't even get a toddler excused from hitting his sibling. But apparently we can't hold the adults who play baseball to these basic standards.
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Post by elguapo on Apr 13, 2013 14:43:46 GMT -5
So I checked it out and, for all the time on the disabled list, Quentin has been hit 60 times in three years. During the first game of the series, when he was hit hard enough that he missed the second game, Vin Scully went on and on, before he was plunked, about how many times the guy gets hit. He's a very laid back guy and that may have played into this....Quentin is soft-spoken and intelligent....Quentin finally had it and he was going to send a message, which he did at Greinke's foolish expense, and to the Dodgers' chagrin. He's a absolute moron. He stands on top of the plate, gets hit by every pitcher in the league, and finally concludes that he's being thrown at purposefully? I guess it's a league-wide conspiracy. C'mon. You crowd the plate, you're going to get some high and tight to move you off the plate. If your fat ass doesn't move you'll get hit sometimes, and it's your own fault. Crowd the plate, be ready to hit the deck or pay the price. That's the way baseball has always played it. As for sending a message, MLB slapped Quentin on the wrist, 8 games, pending appeal.
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