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Post by knuckledown on Mar 8, 2013 7:36:42 GMT -5
D&C (and Minihane) speculating about Ortiz not starting the season and the possibility that he may not play a significant role this year.
What do you think the Sox options are at DH? Personally I'd favor Lavarnway, though I think Carp will get a shot at it as well.
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Post by bluechip on Mar 8, 2013 7:59:11 GMT -5
Gomes should get a lot of action at DH. I would also play Napoli there upon occasion.
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Post by sibbysisti on Mar 8, 2013 9:11:11 GMT -5
There is also the possibility of moving Napoli to DH and acquiring a first baseman if Carp doesn't perform. Morneau could be available as a 1B option.
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Post by jdb on Mar 8, 2013 10:52:52 GMT -5
Im starting to feel like Ortiz doesnt make opening day. If i set the over under on games played at 90 which way would you go?
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 8, 2013 13:31:01 GMT -5
Currently there is little to no depth at DH. Or if you want to argue there is by moving Napoli, then there is no 1b depth. If you go the Gomes route, then the real depth is Bradley. The not so real, we're just going to patch things depth is Nava and or Carp. Carp has the super low floor with the good upside. Nava has the higher floor, but no real upside.
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Post by James Dunne on Mar 8, 2013 13:38:31 GMT -5
If Ortiz can't start the season, the Red Sox can slot in Nava, Gomez, Gomes, Carp, or Napoli, and slide around the other pieces (Sweeney, possibly Overbay, etc). None of them will replace David Ortiz's production, but all are solid (or better) hitters who don't kill the team at DH. I'd be disappointed if Ortiz can't start the year, but it's nothing to get all doom and gloom about.
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Post by jmei on Mar 8, 2013 13:50:35 GMT -5
Here's my roster if Ortiz starts the season on the DL:
1B: Napoli
DH: Gomes
LF: Nava
BN: Sweeney
BN: Overbay/Carp
...with Overbay/Carp spelling Gomes and Napoli on occasion versus RHP.
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Post by Kevin Pereira on Mar 8, 2013 14:17:03 GMT -5
Here's my roster if Ortiz starts the season on the DL: 1B: Napoli DH: Gomes LF: Nava BN: Sweeney BN: Overbay/Carp ...with Overbay/Carp spelling Gomes and Napoli on occasion versus RHP. Overbay's not on the 40-man, so I'm assuming you believe Ortiz will be placed on the 60-day DL? The Sox don't have many clear favorites to be DFA; maybe Mauro Gomez? |
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Post by James Dunne on Mar 8, 2013 14:33:53 GMT -5
If Carp doesn't make the team he'll be DFA'd, as he's out of options. It's tough to imagine both Overbay and Carp heading north. They'd still need to find a 40-man spot for Sweeney, though. Gomez is a possible DFA, as is Ciriaco if the Red Sox decide to bring Holt instead of him. Another possibility is that Bard or Wilson make the club, which would lead to either Mortensen or Aceves being cut.
There's also a chance that Hassan or Morales end up on the 60-day.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2013 16:05:30 GMT -5
some other options if papi isn't ready are:
1. gomez (minor league journeyman who did ok in short sample last year)
2. gomes (of who can move to 1b)
3. napoli (could move to dh and someone else play 1b)
4. lavarnway (prospect c knocking on the door)
5. carp (1b traded for bench/depth)
6. overbay (1b signed to minors deal)
7. linares (did well in minors last year, older prospect)
8. hamilton (minor league journeyman)
9. nava (high obp)
10. brentz (when he is healthy. he could dh or play left, and accordingly, gomes could move to dh)
11. hassan (high obp)
12. hazelbaker (again, he could play field and gomes to dh)
13. bradley (he plays of and gomes to dh)
14. sweeney (plays of and gomes to dh)
15. trade or fa acquisition
i just named almost every possible option. there must be a solution somewhere in there.....
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Post by hammerhead on Mar 8, 2013 16:50:14 GMT -5
I think Ortiz will be ready for opening day or very soon after. He's DH-ing and he's slow anyway, I don't see a huge problem once it's manageable.
If we needed a 40 man spot that is really, really easy . Put Drake Britton on the restricted list.
No Fuss, No Muss
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danr
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Posts: 1,871 
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Post by danr on Mar 9, 2013 20:31:01 GMT -5
Ortiz is getting (or got) MRIs on his feet. He has a problem, and I suspect it won't magically clear up by opening day, maybe not for a long time after that.
Without his bat in the lineup, the Sox are in it deep. The Sox have no one of his caliber. Who does? If, at the end of spring training, or during the first third of the season, the Red Sox management believe the team has a shot at the post season, and if Ortiz is not back, then I think they have to make a trade for a big bat.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Mar 10, 2013 11:20:34 GMT -5
I had to laugh at the headline. Depth at dh? Isn't every bench player depth at dh? They should be treated that way. Once Papi hangs em up. I hope we don't even sign a full-time dh. Build a good bench and just move guys there as needed; matchups, nagging injury/rest, day game after night game for veterans, etc.
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Post by knuckledown on Mar 10, 2013 12:44:11 GMT -5
I had to laugh at the headline. Depth at dh? Isn't every bench player depth at dh? They should be treated that way. Once Papi hangs em up. I hope we don't even sign a full-time dh. Build a good bench and just move guys there as needed; matchups, nagging injury/rest, day game after night game for veterans, etc. It'd be nice if we could get Ortiz-esque production out of every guy on the bench. I think an organization's approach to managing the DH position is highly dependent on who you have. I would think you'd like any of the guys who have won the Edgar Martinez Award in your DH spot, but as an organization you may not have that guy on your roster. If post-Ortiz, whenever that might be, I'm fine with your approach until we get another masher that will give you production over 600+ at bats. |
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Post by GyIantosca on Mar 10, 2013 13:06:31 GMT -5
I don't know really but it seemed to me Ortiz busted his ass on the one year deals and now that's it a two year deal he can take it easy. I personally think he was pissed about the one year deals because of this. Now he can relax and take it easy. Before he had to work hard because your only as good as your last deal and on year to year that leaves no room for relaxing. I hope I am wrong.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2013 13:47:17 GMT -5
I don't know really but it seemed to me Ortiz busted his ass on the one year deals and now that's it a two year deal he can take it easy. I personally think he was pissed about the one year deals because of this. Now he can relax and take it easy. Before he had to work hard because your only as good as your last deal and on year to year that leaves no room for relaxing. I hope I am wrong. Do you have any basis or evidence to back up the statement above? |
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Post by mattpicard on Mar 10, 2013 14:19:59 GMT -5
I don't know really but it seemed to me Ortiz busted his ass on the one year deals and now that's it a two year deal he can take it easy. I personally think he was pissed about the one year deals because of this. Now he can relax and take it easy. Before he had to work hard because your only as good as your last deal and on year to year that leaves no room for relaxing. I hope I am wrong. Well... Yes, he was pissed about the one year deals, and sometimes he was right to be pissed about it. He was usually quite productive year to year but his age, injury history, and physique always gave reason to be cautious. The 1 year high arbitration offers were an interesting way to go about it, since it was a far higher AAV than he would get from another team on the market in a multi-year deal. But I think you can argue that, despite it coming at a late age and coming off a major injury, he deserved a 2 year deal. To suggest he isn't working as hard because of it seems pretty ludicrous to me. If anything, he is probably dying to get back on the field and put the injury and the teams 2012 performance in the past, but unfortunately he's extremely physically limited at the moment. |
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Post by h11233 on Mar 10, 2013 16:00:32 GMT -5
I hope that if Ortiz is out for an extended period they give Lavarnway a chance to earn a starting role. I understand he's been a project behind the plate but if there's a need at DH and he proves capable of producing I'd rather see him fill that role than keep playing wait and see with him. At some point you got to sink or swim, and he could still get time at catcher here and there.
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danr
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Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Mar 10, 2013 17:08:39 GMT -5
Ortiz has inflammation of both heels and is being shut down for "five to seven" days. We'll see if it is that short a time. I doubt it.
I don't for a minute think Ortiz let up a bit because of his contract. That kind of speculation denies the man the respect he has earned. It's not his personality to let up.
As to what kind of player should replace Ortiz, it is not often that a player who can hit like Ortiz, or Martinez, only can be a DH. Any player who can play a position, and hit like those two, is going to play a position. Most teams have to rotate bench players through the DH position because players like Ortiz only come along about once a generation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2013 17:24:53 GMT -5
Short of picking someone else up, keeping Lavarnway and rotating him, Napoli, Gomes, and Carp through the DH slot seems to make the most sense. If June comes along and it doesn't look like Ortiz will be playing anytime soon they'll be forced to explore other options, John Jay for Stephen Drew could be interesting.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Mar 10, 2013 18:17:30 GMT -5
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Post by mattpicard on Mar 10, 2013 19:55:34 GMT -5
I'm interested in seeing what Linares can do in a part time role as well. Lavarnway needs to play everyday as a catcher in AAA, and doesn't excite me as a part time DH bat. Gomez may be a serviceable hitter but I don't want someone who is defensively useless coming up (not that Ortiz offers any value there, but we can save some runs on defense while he's out at 1B or LF). Overbay offers no versatility and I can't think of why it'd be worth choosing him over Carp.
Even though I want to see a glimpse of Linares, I don't think we'd have a spot for him. With Victorino and Gomes being lefty mashers, we really need to focus on giving the bench spots to guys who can hit quality right-handed pitching. I'm not sure how JCL's lefty/righty batting splits are, but it doesn't seem like a good fit. If Sweeney was a righty and JCL was the lefty, I would absolutely like to see him get a look as a backup who can play good defense at all 3 spots. With Sweeney, we're talking about a .290, .350 OBP type bat (with no power) and the ability to provide quality defense. He's not too exciting but from a 5th outfielder who wouldn't need to play against lefties ever, that's what I want to see.
So with Ross, Ciriaco, and Sweeney on the bench, another bench spot, and an opening at DH, I say we just give it to Carp and Nava. Carp's a lefty, and Nava is far better against RHP's. Here's my alignment, with alternatives in the parentheses. Also, I included the catchers because Salty is horrible vs lefties and Ross can be a solid hitter against them. I don't think they are going to have each catcher work with specific pitchers so it can work well.
vs RHP's:
LF: Nava (Sweeney)
DH: Carp (Napoli; Carp 1B) (Gomes)
C: Salty
vs LHP's:
LF: Carp or Nava (Gomes)
DH: Gomes (Ciriaco IF, half-day off to infielder)
C: Ross
I know those options aren't exciting, but it doesn't look like Ortiz will miss too much time, and these guys are more productive than you may initially think. Carp is a wild-card. He could hit .175 or be a .260+ hitter with good power. I've seen hm hit some absolute bombs with Seattle when he's healthy. He can allow Napoli to DH as well, something that would be convenient for health purposes and wouldn't hurt the defense.
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Post by kman22 on Mar 10, 2013 21:48:27 GMT -5
I had to laugh at the headline. Depth at dh? Isn't every bench player depth at dh? They should be treated that way. Once Papi hangs em up. I hope we don't even sign a full-time dh. Build a good bench and just move guys there as needed; matchups, nagging injury/rest, day game after night game for veterans, etc. My thoughts exactly. I think Carp, Gomes and Napoli could benefit big time from Ortiz missing time. Of the three, I think Carp would benefit the most getting the chance to play regularly at Fenway. Fortunately, they have a few weeks to let it all play out before a decision is necessary. I think the preference is to leave Gomez in Pawtucket when they break camp. Same with Lavarnway, although I think both players will end up in Boston before the September roster expansion. In terms of prospect watching, if Ortiz misses any significant amount of time, we could all be looking at an exciting draft watch for 2014 as well. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2013 12:16:26 GMT -5
The assumption here is that more reps at catcher will improve Lavarnway's catching skills enough so that it would outweigh the immediate value he'd provide as a DH in the majors.
I'm not sure that's true. From posters that have seen him a lot, can you comment on the current gap between where he is now and what his maximum physical skills will allow him to be? Is he raw or is he just not athletic enough to be much better defensively than he is today?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 11, 2013 12:52:40 GMT -5
Normally, I'd say Gomes would be the main candidate to be DH, but if Mike Carp is as bad as Gomes is in LF, then maybe the prudent thing to do would be to keep Gomes in LF (particularly at Fenway), and have Carp play 1b, and preserve Napoli a bit more as the DH.
I think given the circumstances the Sox need to find out what they have in Mike Carp. Is he somebody that can play pretty regularly? Is he somebody you'd want platooning with Gomes once Ortiz returns? Of course, it also gives Gomes his opportunity to hit righties as well, and the Sox need to know if he can hold his own there.
As it is, the Sox lineup is pretty righty heavy and there is no middle of the order bat that's left handed unless Ellsbury has a season reminiscent of this 2011 campaign - so I'd be interested in seeing if Carp can be a #5 or #6 hitter.
I hope this isn't a nagging, enduring injury for Ortiz this season - if it is, the Sox lineup will be in deep trouble. It's not that great a lineup with Ortiz and without him, even if Carp was to step up somewhat, it will be lacking, especially on the road.
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