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Red Sox trade Workman and Hembree to the Phillies
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 21, 2020 21:32:50 GMT -5
Honestly, in Bloom we trust with both of these guys. No, not at all I bet you would have been happy with just cutting the two, and they get 2 decent arms back. I really hope Pivetta becomes a break out ace now just for Chaim.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Aug 21, 2020 21:34:13 GMT -5
I don't have trust or mistrust or Bloom as of yet, but I do know one thing - I do trust his judgment a helluva lot more than yours, but that's not saying much. You can't expect much for a month of Workman and Hembree but my initial thought was they did reasonably well in the deal. I was looking at Pivetta's numbers and they're better than I thought they were given how crappy his ERA is. The K/BB ratio is there and he gets the Ks. He's not overly wild. The problem is obvious. Way too many HR balls given up. He's definitely a victim of his time, with all those HRs flying out of the park. I don't know how he cuts that down in this era but if he does, then there could be something there. Seabold sounds like he could help them whether it's as a back end starter or a reliever. My guess is he winds up an 8th inning guy, but we'll see. Everytime I see Eovaldi start it reminds me of how Dmaineah wants him to be our closer
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 21, 2020 21:34:22 GMT -5
But can he play the guitar?
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Aug 21, 2020 21:39:34 GMT -5
I don't have trust or mistrust or Bloom as of yet, but I do know one thing - I do trust his judgment a helluva lot more than yours, but that's not saying much. You can't expect much for a month of Workman and Hembree but my initial thought was they did reasonably well in the deal. I was looking at Pivetta's numbers and they're better than I thought they were given how crappy his ERA is. The K/BB ratio is there and he gets the Ks. He's not overly wild. The problem is obvious. Way too many HR balls given up. He's definitely a victim of his time, with all those HRs flying out of the park. I don't know how he cuts that down in this era but if he does, then there could be something there. Seabold sounds like he could help them whether it's as a back end starter or a reliever. My guess is he winds up an 8th inning guy, but we'll see. Everytime I see Eovaldi start it reminds me of how Dmaineah wants him to be our closer In fairness, I am up for that.
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Post by wOBA Fett on Aug 21, 2020 21:42:01 GMT -5
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Post by juanpena on Aug 21, 2020 21:44:20 GMT -5
Umm... bad as his numbers are, dude is no worse than our #3 starter right now. And that is an impressive montage. Most of the pitches are good. The fourth pitch should have been hit 500 feet.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Aug 21, 2020 21:52:18 GMT -5
Umm... bad as his numbers are, dude is no worse than our #3 starter right now. And that is an impressive montage. Most of the pitches are good. The fourth pitch should have been hit 500 feet. So... #2 starter?
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Post by chr31ter on Aug 21, 2020 21:59:09 GMT -5
*shrug* Same age with better minor league numbers than Houck. A year older than Ward, but has arguably performed just as well against better competition.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Aug 21, 2020 21:59:32 GMT -5
Everytime I see Eovaldi start it reminds me of how Dmaineah wants him to be our closer In fairness, I am up for that. This. I think the book is closed on him being an effective long term starter. See if the Sox can turn him into an ace closer next year.
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Post by Ryanod1 on Aug 21, 2020 22:03:53 GMT -5
I don't have trust or mistrust for Bloom as of yet, but I do know one thing - I do trust his judgment a helluva lot more than yours, but that's not saying much. You can't expect much for a month of Workman and Hembree but my initial thought was they did reasonably well in the deal. I was looking at Pivetta's numbers and they're better than I thought they were given how crappy his ERA is. The K/BB ratio is there and he gets the Ks. He's not overly wild. The problem is obvious. Way too many HR balls given up. He's definitely a victim of his time, with all those HRs flying out of the park. I don't know how he cuts that down in this era but if he does, then there could be something there. Seabold sounds like he could help them whether it's as a back end starter or a reliever. My guess is he winds up an 8th inning guy, but we'll see. I thought the same thing with Pivetta regarding the HRs. I wonder if his arm slot is allowing pitches to be picked up a little sooner than you would want. I doubt hes tipping his pitches or anything but maybe a small amount of deception will go a long way. Better control is the obvious answer too of course. He has quite a bit of life on his pitches so finding a way to harness his higher spin rate stuff can skyrocket his value. Maybe it will be like when we had ERod early on where the Sox did great work correcting small flaws. Overall I think hes very correctable, and could be really good. Based on what we gave up theres a lot of untapped potential in both pitchers. Thats all I can ask for with short rentals haha.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 21, 2020 22:09:50 GMT -5
dmaineah....he ain't heavy....he's my brother. Keep it real, brother.
Heater and Work. Long time with the club. Thanks for the all the effort and continued success. Their days were numbered.
We are gonna see what Bloom is about now. They got young pitchers with upside and cost control. That pretty much defines pitching inventory these days, and clubs can use them well if they can be developed. The chances of them being studs is very minimal, but if they are good components to a winning club, we will all be happy with this trade.
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Post by soxfan06 on Aug 21, 2020 22:20:12 GMT -5
I mean you can't expect top tier prospects for okay relievers with 30 games left in a short season.
Hopefully we can tweak something in Pivetta and turn him into a 4th starter. And hopefully Seabold becomes the next Workman.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Aug 21, 2020 22:28:20 GMT -5
That seems kinda low to me. A possible 4/5 who is actually near getting a trial with the big club? How does that not slot ahead of guys a few years from possibly utilityman status?
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Post by RedSoxStats on Aug 21, 2020 22:37:28 GMT -5
He was 23 in Philly so that is where he was slotted in. I'm guessing he will rank considerably higher on all the lists based on league-wide opinion on him, which is sounding favorable across the board.
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Post by taftreign on Aug 21, 2020 22:44:50 GMT -5
Quite happy with this result. Neither Workman nor Hembree are irreplaceable in the bullpen. Tampa Bay for years have been able to find cheap arms for the pen who have pitched to great success and I have to hope Bloom has learned a thing or two in these regards.
The one thing that is harder to find are cheap controllable starting pitching options and there are two coming back in this trade. Pivetta has quality stuff but has not put it together for any long stretches but is a quality piece as a 4th starter. Seabold has upside if not top of the rotation stuff. I for one enjoy a good command and control pitcher in the rotation and believe these pitchers are often underrated, although Seabold seems to have the love of the scouting community.
I’m surprised after watching this years starting staff that anyone would not think this is a win. In a lost season Boston essentially is giving up 1 year of Hembree for 3 arb years of Pivetta, who is making about 500,000 this season (162 game value), and 6 seasons of Seabold.
A rotation next season of Sale once he’s healthy, Rodriguez, Eovaldi, Pivetta, some combo of Perez, Godley and/or a Free Agent (#3 to #5) doesn’t seem bad to me. The offense should be very competitive next season just on in house replacements. This doesn’t need to be a complete tear down and rebuild with a core of Bogaerts, Devers, JD and Verdugo supplemented by some reasonable prospects in Casas, Downs, Dalbec and Duran and quality depth at other positions.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Aug 21, 2020 23:10:31 GMT -5
dmaineah....he ain't heavy....he's my brother. Keep it real, brother. Heater and Work. Long time with the club. Thanks for the all the effort and continued success. Their days were numbered. We are gonna see what Bloom is about now. They got young pitchers with upside and cost control. That pretty much defines pitching inventory these days, and clubs can use them well if they can be developed. The chances of them being studs is very minimal, but if they are good components to a winning club, we will all be happy with this trade. It defines the value of people the Sox may be looking to move over the next week plus tho with this one not bringing back what some think was fair value. I see JBJ as possibly staying put, unless the Sox pick up half plus the remainder of what he is due and getting little to nothing in return. Benny, should he be getting shopped probably has not drawn much prospect wise attention.
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Aug 21, 2020 23:17:23 GMT -5
I mean you can't expect top tier prospects for okay relievers with 30 games left in a short season. Hopefully we can tweak something in Pivetta and turn him into a 4th starter. And hopefully Seabold becomes the next Workman. Man, we arent even guaranteed 30 games, covid could wrap this season up tomorrow for all we know.
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Post by pedroiaesque on Aug 21, 2020 23:44:53 GMT -5
A free agent reliever at the end of the year and an above average reliever that I’ve seen people shredding on these boards for years for a wild card with major league experience (albeit not particularly good results) and a high minors prospect. I’m not sure what anyone could realistically expect for 30 games this year and whatever season we have next year, but that’s not a bad return at all.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Aug 22, 2020 0:15:20 GMT -5
A free agent reliever at the end of the year and an above average reliever that I’ve seen people shredding on these boards for years for a wild card with major league experience (albeit not particularly good results) and a high minors prospect. I’m not sure what anyone could realistically expect for 30 games this year and whatever season we have next year, but that’s not a bad return at all. I feel like a lot of the Hembree thrashing was purely political. It seems like after he came out and supported the president people went for his throat. On the field he's an average reliever who on this team was probably 3rd in the pecking order for saves. He did a good job for the team.
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Post by kman22 on Aug 22, 2020 0:38:12 GMT -5
Everyone blooms in their own time
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Post by TheCerebral1 on Aug 22, 2020 0:56:04 GMT -5
I think it's a fair trade. We're not pretending this team is going on a big time run. Trading two in their thirties pitchers is a smart move. Get ahead of the curve and move forward. Workman has has an eventful last 2 years in Boston, but is a pending UFA and I've never loved his profile as as a closer. I'm not a Hembree guy, but his stats don't lie. It's a decent enough move. I want more of this in the coming weeks. Move on whatever you can to pump new life into the Red Sox.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 22, 2020 4:47:28 GMT -5
LOL, after heavy rains and 20 hours with no electricity, this is exactly the kind of news that's great to see upon returning. Color me all in on this trade.
I'd expect every trade the Sox make to include cash. One of the advantages of having billionaire ownership in a year where every team is losing money. That was likely the pot balancer that made it happen.
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Post by ghostofrussgibson on Aug 22, 2020 4:57:13 GMT -5
I like the trade and hope to see more deals before the deadline. Getting a 'change of scenery' guy we decent stuff plus another arm for a couple of pretty replaceable bullpen arms. Any rumors on Bradley, Bennie or others?
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Aug 22, 2020 5:24:21 GMT -5
You got a low-floor, high-ceiling guy, and the opposite. I like that. The Bronson Arroyo comparison for Seabold seems spot on. When the Sox claimed him on waivers from the Pirates I went deep into his ml numbers and got excited, and said so on SoSH. IIRC, people didn't buy my argument that his big improvement in his last year in AAA was so extreme it had to be real. Then they barely pitched him in ST and passed him through waivers, and people got even more skeptical. You know the rest (except maybe that they should have just given him the vacant rotation slot that year instead of trading for Suppan). Seabold is not in either BA's or MLB's top 30 Phillies prospects. Three other rankings had him at 7, 17, and 24. A lot of rankers are obsessed with upside and don't get the value of a guy who is very likely to be a #4 starter. And the other half of the disrespect is not believing that his AFL performance was meaningful. But as I collate the various reports, it seems as if he did something with his changeup that boosted it from average to plus. Pivetta's career OPS allowed splits by batting order position: 1 & 2: 810 3 & 4: 938 5 & 6: 763 7 - 9: 892. WT? High K rate, low BB rate, so he's just challenging guys he thinks aren't a threat and they torch him. He also has a reverse split where righties hit for more power, which could be the same syndrome. Splits by outs in inning (excluding IBB and SH; HRC = HR / Contact)
PA* BA OBP SLG K% BB% HRC BABIP 643 .318 .372 .530 .216 .079 .065 .369 559 .274 .331 .509 .272 .077 .078 .331 508 .218 .310 .376 .256 .102 .047 .272 This is just silly. With 2 outs, he's much more willing to walk a guy (44% more!), and his hardness of contact is immensely better. It's the same thing as above, where he's unwilling to walk 7 through 9 hitters, and they take him deep way more often than normal.
Maybe the Phillies have tried to get him to change his approach and he can't or wont. But figuring how many millions of $$ he can make if he gives it a shot, you have to wonder whether they've just missed this.
Incidentally, when Buchholz struggled early in his career, the big breakthrough came when he allowed his K / BB rate to worsen and his BABIP dropped hugely. I have a start-by-start study of the season where it happened and you can see him fine-tuning his approach over stretches of starts.
They'll have 4 years of control, thanks to the Phils sending him to the Alternate Site most of the year so far.
So this might not be the all-time steal, but you've seen his stuff, and I'm at a loss as to why he can't approach that .218 / .310 / .376 line all the time if he just uses his 2-out approach. And those numbers include being too aggressive with weak hitters and righties!
Meanwhile, the Phillies are 9-13 but just 1.5 GB the 8th seed. Given that they have to win 2 out of 3 on the road to advance ... that's an awful lot of talent for 30+ games of Workman and a year+ of Hembree, whose role is 4th RHP in the pen.
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We know that JBJ or Pillar will very likely be dealt (quite possibly to the Rockies). We should see see Puello, who'll get a shot to win the 4th OFer spot for next year.
The question is whether they'll both go, and if so, who becomes the 4th OFer. The Indians and Orioles are other prospective buyers.
I'll be really surprised if they deal anyone else.
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Post by jbsox on Aug 22, 2020 5:37:21 GMT -5
I had mentioned it a couple times in the game threads we may need to combine an expiring contract with a contract that has another year left to get something of value in return just like what we did here.
So maybe we’ll see more trades like this for example Barnes with JBJ, Moreland with Pillar etc.
I like the return, and if we really wanted to we could go after Workman in the offseason.
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