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Benintendi traded to KC in 3-way deal w/ NYM
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Post by julyanmorley on May 25, 2021 16:20:35 GMT -5
I dunno, maybe he just hit the weight room a bunch... In any event, should we infer that a player listening to the training advice of his agent rather than the team was one reason they traded him away?
I don't buy that the Red Sox would be mad if one of their players successfully completed a weight training program and reported to spring training with ten more pounds of good weight. I think Cora is sugarcoating things and Benintendi wasn't taking care of his body like a professional athlete should.
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shagworthy
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Post by shagworthy on May 25, 2021 16:49:38 GMT -5
I dunno, maybe he just hit the weight room a bunch... In any event, should we infer that a player listening to the training advice of his agent rather than the team was one reason they traded him away?
I don't buy that the Red Sox would be mad if one of their players successfully completed a weight training program and reported to spring training with ten more pounds of good weight. I think Cora is sugarcoating things and Benintendi wasn't taking care of his body like a professional athlete should.
Don't think the Sox were mad at the additional muscle, but I don't think they were enamored with the change in approach. If he had gained the muscle and kept the same approach at the plate, I think he and they would have seen improvements at least batted ball wise. But a guy like he is, muscle is a trade off for other things. At one point Canseco was a pretty decent runner, fielder, etc, and then he went too far and became essentially a DH. There have been plenty of guys historically who traded athleticism for power because the game rewards power more than athleticism, at least financially. Until that changes, this will be a re-occurring cautionary tale.
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Post by chr31ter on May 25, 2021 17:44:38 GMT -5
From someone who would know... theathletic.com/2385557/2021/02/13/hes-excited-why-andrew-benintendi-is-optimistic-about-his-royals-opportunity/?article_source=search&search_query=Benintendi“It was like watching somebody go down a road that they shouldn’t go down,” said Andy Barkett, who at the time was the Red Sox assistant hitting coach. “There was really nothing we could do. We could talk to him and tell him, but when that little man on his shoulder is telling him to go deep rather than stay to the middle and hit a line drive, it’s hard to fight that battle, you know?” Nearly a dozen times in that 2019 season, manager Alex Cora and then-general manager Dave Dombrowski met with Barkett and Red Sox hitting coach Tim Hyers. “What’s going on with Benny?” they’d ask. “He’s trying to hit homers,” they’d say. Andrew, from Barkett’s perspective, was attempting to lift the baseball, which caused his back shoulder to dip. He wasn’t naturally pulling the ball; he was thinking about pulling the ball, and that, Barkett believes, affected Andrew’s body.
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Post by jdog2020 on May 25, 2021 18:50:04 GMT -5
I have to admit, I am very happy to see AB out of town. Never liked his skill set. This trade will work out wonders for the Sox. Wincowski is a legit arm, Franchy is just an immense raw talent. Who knows what the other three prospects will amount to. This deal is already a huge win!
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cdj
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Post by cdj on May 25, 2021 18:56:07 GMT -5
I’m quite optimistic about the deal too but idk, I feel like going back and forth declaring victory and defeat on this deal every other weEk is kinda funny.
We’re all winners in the grand scheme of things. We beat out ~200 million counterparts just to walk this planet. Even if we lose we win every day we wake up! Philosophy! (I can’t remember which thread took a dark turn before, was it this one?)
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Post by incandenza on May 26, 2021 10:48:59 GMT -5
One thing about the discussion re: Benintendi bulking up in 2019 and then reversing course is that it really doesn't explain the trends in his power game:
| ISO | 2017
| .154 | 2018 | .174 | 2019 | .165 | 2020 | .026 | 2021 | .088 |
On the one hand, it's not like his unsanctioned efforts paid off in 2019; his power was actually down slightly from the year before. On the other hand, if he's back to his old approach, that's not working either. In fact he's pretty much fallen off a cliff. So what's going on here?
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soxin8
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Post by soxin8 on May 26, 2021 14:05:48 GMT -5
If you are still disappointed in the Benintendi trade, I think there is something else to consider now. It looks like Santana could be a big help in the outfield. If he produces anywhere near the level AB is doing for KC, the Sox will have traded a player they replaced with an inexpensive free agent and possibly added significantly to the farm in the deal.
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Post by James Dunne on May 29, 2021 22:33:31 GMT -5
It's not clear if this is fluky or if the Royals have fixed something or if Benintendi is just healthy again, but he's been basically himself again now for a month.
First 16 games: 67 PA, .180/.254/.230 25.4% K rate Last 31 games (through 5/29): 121 PA, .339/.397/.468 15.7% K rate
It's the strikeout rate that I feel is the most important development, that's right back in line with his 2017-18 self. Obviously the Iso is still down from that peak, but anyone with those kinds of contact rates at a time when strikeouts are so prevalent is obviously extremely valuable.
It doesn't make sense to analyze the trade because we still don't know who Boston is getting back, but I think we're getting further away from "it was smart to trade Benintendi because he's just not that good anymore."
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cdj
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Post by cdj on May 29, 2021 22:39:36 GMT -5
It's not clear if this is fluky or if the Royals have fixed something or if Benintendi is just healthy again, but he's been basically himself again now for a month. First 16 games: 67 PA, .180/.254/.230 25.4% K rate Last 31 games (through 5/29): 121 PA, .339/.397/.468 15.7% K rate It's the strikeout rate that I feel is the most important development, that's right back in line with his 2017-18 self. Obviously the Iso is still down from that peak, but anyone with those kinds of contact rates at a time when strikeouts are so prevalent is obviously extremely valuable. It doesn't make sense to analyze the trade because we still don't know who Boston is getting back, but I think we're getting further away from "it was smart to trade Benintendi because he's just not that good anymore." The K rate coming back down is big for him. I’m happy he’s starting to find success and re-establish himself as a starting corner outfielder. I’m also glad to see Winckowski having some great results. Can’t wait for the PTBNL to be announced. Any day now *stares at clock*
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Post by vermontsox1 on May 31, 2021 15:17:26 GMT -5
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Post by vermontsox1 on May 31, 2021 16:50:19 GMT -5
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Post by vermontsox1 on May 31, 2021 20:07:22 GMT -5
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Post by wOBA Fett on May 31, 2021 20:39:27 GMT -5
Which I believe is a month after the start of the minor league season, and in line with other reports about the deadline when the trade first occured.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on May 31, 2021 21:51:27 GMT -5
If the Sox get one of Lacy, Lynch or Witt from KC or Alvarez, Allan or Mauricio from the Mets, I'll be ready to do a full mea culpa. I posted in the trade rumors post, but I'll sort of re-post here. Could we further improve the likelihood of a good return by adding Chavis or Marwin, or both? The Mets are desperate right now for warm bodies who can play multiple positions with all of their injuries. Now seems like the time to strike to take advantage of that for our own future, no? Chavis is blocked basically by Dalbec, Casas eventually, Marwin, Kiké, Arroyo, and even Franchy who the Sox want to give a bigger leash. Marwin is a defensive wizard who's bat has been imo so-so, but I think the Mets will take so-so over the dregs they have remaining, especially because I think his versatility still makes him > Pillar, even if he hits .230 the rest of the way. Marwin cannot be traded before June 15 "8. An Article XX-B MLB free-agent who signs a Major League contract after 11:59 PM (Eastern) on the 5th day after the final game of the World Series has an automatic "no trade" right through June 15th. The player can waive this right, but if he does he can be traded only for cash and/or player contracts with a maximum aggregate value of $50,000. Note that an Article XX-B MLB free-agent who signs a minor league contract after 11:59 PM (Eastern) on the 5th day after the final game of the World Series does NOT receive an automatic "no trade" right, even if the player is later added to the club's MLB Reserve List (40-man roster)" www.thecubreporter.com/book/export/html/3524
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Post by jdog2020 on May 31, 2021 22:03:30 GMT -5
It's not clear if this is fluky or if the Royals have fixed something or if Benintendi is just healthy again, but he's been basically himself again now for a month. First 16 games: 67 PA, .180/.254/.230 25.4% K rate Last 31 games (through 5/29): 121 PA, .339/.397/.468 15.7% K rate It's the strikeout rate that I feel is the most important development, that's right back in line with his 2017-18 self. Obviously the Iso is still down from that peak, but anyone with those kinds of contact rates at a time when strikeouts are so prevalent is obviously extremely valuable. It doesn't make sense to analyze the trade because we still don't know who Boston is getting back, but I think we're getting further away from "it was smart to trade Benintendi because he's just not that good anymore." The K rate coming back down is big for him. I’m happy he’s starting to find success and re-establish himself as a starting corner outfielder. I’m also glad to see Winckowski having some great results. Can’t wait for the PTBNL to be announced. Any day now *stares at clock* Let's face the facts. He's playing in a much different ballpark. AB has a declining skill set. He peaked very early. Franchy I would still take over him if it were a 1-1 deal. The fact that Wincowski and three other prospects are coming this way makes this almost as good as the trade for Slocumb and Tek.
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Post by dyoungteach on May 31, 2021 22:24:00 GMT -5
Something not mentioned: this potentially also means the royals guys AND Mets guys are not low low a type players who aren’t playing yet. They wouldn’t have been able to see them play yet. I’m guessing all 3 are low a or above players
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Post by vermontsox1 on May 31, 2021 22:28:30 GMT -5
Something not mentioned: this potentially also means the royals guys AND Mets guys are not low low a type players who aren’t playing yet. They wouldn’t have been able to see them play yet. I’m guessing all 3 are low a or above players That is not true. The Red Sox almost certainly have been scouting minor league spring training and extended spring training.
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Post by dyoungteach on May 31, 2021 22:35:55 GMT -5
Something not mentioned: this potentially also means the royals guys AND Mets guys are not low low a type players who aren’t playing yet. They wouldn’t have been able to see them play yet. I’m guessing all 3 are low a or above players That is not true. The Red Sox almost certainly have been scouting minor league spring training and extended spring training. I guess we will find out this week! Then of course the debate can turn to who won the trade
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Post by dyoungteach on May 31, 2021 22:41:20 GMT -5
“ Because the Mets acquired Lee -- a more highly-regarded prospect than Winckowski or Cordero -- it is assumed that the prospect the Red Sox will acquire from the Mets is a more highly-regarded player than either of the two from Kansas City.”
This quote is coming from the red Sox live article ( of which many are agreeing with). Simply pointing out.... that word assume is mother of all evil sometimes. And also gives me hope that one of those royals prospects is higher than what people are working off given the assumption.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 31, 2021 23:00:14 GMT -5
The K rate coming back down is big for him. I’m happy he’s starting to find success and re-establish himself as a starting corner outfielder. I’m also glad to see Winckowski having some great results. Can’t wait for the PTBNL to be announced. Any day now *stares at clock* Let's face the facts. He's playing in a much different ballpark. AB has a declining skill set. He peaked very early. Franchy I would still take over him if it were a 1-1 deal. The fact that Wincowski and three other prospects are coming this way makes this almost as good as the trade for Slocumb and Tek. I just have to ask why you would do a 1 for 1 deal?
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 1, 2021 0:36:10 GMT -5
Yeah I would’ve called myself Franchy’s biggest supporter on this forum but I guess not lol
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 1, 2021 7:06:43 GMT -5
I hate to admit it, but Benintendi would be the perfect lead off hitter for this team right now. His batting has improved a lot and is able to draw walks and hit singles. I'm going to assume the lack of power will catch up to him and those singles will start becoming outs again at some point, but the cut down in K-rate is a positive development. To say you'd do a 1-for-1 for Franchy is just being dug into a take lol.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 1, 2021 8:40:01 GMT -5
I hate to admit it, but Benintendi would be the perfect lead off hitter for this team right now. His batting has improved a lot and is able to draw walks and hit singles. I'm going to assume the lack of power will catch up to him and those singles will start becoming outs again at some point, but the cut down in K-rate is a positive development. To say you'd do a 1-for-1 for Franchy is just being dug into a take lol. Good point. I've seen Benintendi raked over the coals here. He's still a good player. Hitting .280 in a league where the average hitter hits under .240 is impressive. That's like a .310 BA in a normal year. And he draws walks, which is something the Sox lineup sorely lacks and the inability to draw walks will bite the Sox in the butt when they play against the better pitching staffs in the league. They will expose the Sox' penchant for chasing bad pitches and if the Sox can't hit their way on, then they'll struggle to get baserunners, the starters won't have their pitch counts run up and it'll be easier for a good pitcher to pitch 7 innings against the Sox. So in 2021, the Sox will take the loss in the trade. The best hope the Sox have is that Benintendi's loss in negated somewhat by good play from Duran or something like that, but odds are Duran will be closer to what the Sox already have a lot of, free swinging players with good pop, a decent hit tool, but plate discipline issues. He also has speed and athleticism which will help close the gap of what they lose out on from Benintendi, but in 2021 Beni would have been an ideal leadoff hitter for the team, given his skill set and ability to do what nobody else in the lineup does. That said, while the trade might still be a loss in 2022, I think the Sox, especially if they hit on at least one of these three players coming back can turn this into a great trade. I don't think Benintendi was ever going to be somebody the Sox wanted to spend larger $ on to retain beyond free agency, Winckowski has a legit chance at being a useful starting pitcher and we'll see how good the Sox are picking A ball talent, because an A ball talent ranked lower in the rankings now can still become a top prospect if things break right, so you're talking luck and talent evaluation and the ability to develop. Big ifs, but if the Sox can do that they might wind up with six years of service for three talented players who can help the Sox in the 2024 - 2029 time period which could be huge. I do believe that is the time period Bloom is working his team building toward. If Bloom had thought this Sox team to be a 95 win contender maybe he doesn't make the deal, but if he figured them as an 85 - 89 win wild card contender prior to the season, then downgrading from Benintendi a bit in 2021 would be worth it. My guess is that this team is exceeding Bloom's expectations of where he saw the team. Wouldn't be the first time it happened. In Alex Speier's book, Ben Cherington throught the 2013 Red Sox could be an 86 win team. You just never really know.
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Post by incandenza on Jun 1, 2021 9:15:47 GMT -5
I hate to admit it, but Benintendi would be the perfect lead off hitter for this team right now. His batting has improved a lot and is able to draw walks and hit singles. I'm going to assume the lack of power will catch up to him and those singles will start becoming outs again at some point, but the cut down in K-rate is a positive development. To say you'd do a 1-for-1 for Franchy is just being dug into a take lol. If Bloom had thought this Sox team to be a 95 win contender maybe he doesn't make the deal, but if he figured them as an 85 - 89 win wild card contender prior to the season, then downgrading from Benintendi a bit in 2021 would be worth it. My guess is that this team is exceeding Bloom's expectations of where he saw the team. Wouldn't be the first time it happened. In Alex Speier's book, Ben Cherington throught the 2013 Red Sox could be an 86 win team. You just never really know. People want to project their own negative expectations onto Bloom, but if you start from the *wild* premise that Bloom was trying to make the team as good as possible in 2021 (without sacrificing the future) then it's not hard to see this as a lateral move: Benintendi for Cordero, plus a few million in savings that let them sign Ottavino. Cordero has been a disaster, but with reasonable expectations of how he could've done that's not an exchange that makes the team worse. And because Bloom is a little bit of a magician, he also managed to add five prospects in the bargain, including German.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Jun 1, 2021 9:40:39 GMT -5
If Bloom had thought this Sox team to be a 95 win contender maybe he doesn't make the deal, but if he figured them as an 85 - 89 win wild card contender prior to the season, then downgrading from Benintendi a bit in 2021 would be worth it. My guess is that this team is exceeding Bloom's expectations of where he saw the team. Wouldn't be the first time it happened. In Alex Speier's book, Ben Cherington throught the 2013 Red Sox could be an 86 win team. You just never really know. People want to project their own negative expectations onto Bloom, but if you start from the *wild* premise that Bloom was trying to make the team as good as possible in 2021 (without sacrificing the future) then it's not hard to see this as a lateral move: Benintendi for Cordero, plus a few million in savings that let them sign Ottavino. Cordero has been a disaster, but with reasonable expectations of how he could've done that's not an exchange that makes the team worse. And because Bloom is a little bit of a magician, he also managed to add five prospects in the bargain, including German.
I think it is fine to argue people want to project negatively. But then to call Bloom a “magician” merely substitutes another projection. We don’t even know who these guys are! I take a middle ground: this was a reasonable trade, it may or may not work out. Bloom needed be neither an idiot nor a genius to make it. It was a baseball trade with its risks and possible rewards.
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