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Post by fanofredsox on May 22, 2021 16:25:19 GMT -5
Team currently holds a $7m option on him for next year.
I think they should extend him.
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Post by voiceofreason on May 24, 2021 8:51:40 GMT -5
Team currently holds a $7m option on him for next year. I think they should extend him. I agree, don't want to lose him and some team could come in and offer too much to match. But as always what would it take? He already signed a team friendly deal once so what is his mindset? How much, how long?
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 24, 2021 11:08:23 GMT -5
Team currently holds a $7m option on him for next year. I think they should extend him. I agree, don't want to lose him and some team could come in and offer too much to match. But as always what would it take? He already signed a team friendly deal once so what is his mindset? How much, how long? You never know but from listening to him, I think he genuinely wants to be a Red Sox lifer. I think if the Sox offer a team friendly deal, he'll take it. Just my sense. You listen to these guys talk and sometimes you get a feel for who's just looking for the highest bidder, who wants to stay but will go elsewhere if the dollars are even $1 higher, somebody who wants to stay but will only go if they're blown away elsewhere, or those who want to stay no matter what. I say I get a feel for it, but it certainly doesn't make me right. It just gives me an opinion, right or wrong, and my sense, right or wrong, is if the Sox put down a something remotely reasonable, he'll sign it. I could be wrong here, but that's what I think with Vazquez or the impression he gives off when it's been talked about. It could work, where they get a good deal on him as a regular, and then overpay on him as a backup. I can see his defensive skills holding up for a long time even if his bat fades out. The things is though the longer the deal is the longer the Sox risk overpaying him as a backup which I have trouble seeing Bloom wanting to do as I think he wants to maximize every last dollar and always have the flexibility.
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Post by Smittyw on May 24, 2021 11:15:28 GMT -5
Next spring would seem like the natural time to talk extension (and I'd venture a guess that they will).
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 24, 2021 11:58:36 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't get why you'd extend Vazquez now.
A lot might have to do with Wong's development in the meantime.
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on May 24, 2021 16:08:43 GMT -5
I'd consider Vaz a low priority for an extension. They'll have to deal with JDM and Ed-Rod FA after this season. They'll also have to close in on decisions on X, who can walk after 2022, and Raffy, who's up after 2023.
If they're going to extend Raffy at decent money, this is the off-season to do it. If he demands ridiculous money to forego FA, I think CB will totally have the stones to trade him either during the upcoming off-season or after 2022. He won't let him walk for just picks in return.
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Post by manfred on May 24, 2021 16:44:43 GMT -5
I'd consider Vaz a low priority for an extension. They'll have to deal with JDM and Ed-Rod FA after this season. They'll also have to close in on decisions on X, who can walk after 2022, and Raffy, who's up after 2023. If they're going to extend Raffy at decent money, this is the off-season to do it. If he demands ridiculous money to forego FA, I think CB will totally have the stones to trade him either during the upcoming off-season or after 2022. He won't let him walk for just picks in return. If this formula holds (not extend CVaz, extend ERod, trade Raffy)... the only stones CB would have are in his head.
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shagworthy
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Post by shagworthy on May 24, 2021 17:12:52 GMT -5
I'd consider Vaz a low priority for an extension. They'll have to deal with JDM and Ed-Rod FA after this season. They'll also have to close in on decisions on X, who can walk after 2022, and Raffy, who's up after 2023. If they're going to extend Raffy at decent money, this is the off-season to do it. If he demands ridiculous money to forego FA, I think CB will totally have the stones to trade him either during the upcoming off-season or after 2022. He won't let him walk for just picks in return. If this formula holds (not extend CVaz, extend ERod, trade Raffy)... the only stones CB would have are in his head. If I'm Bloom, Vasquez and Raffy are my extension targets, with Raffy being the priority. Guys with his ability to hit do not come often. If the deal is right, I'm fine with a Vasquez extension, but I wouldn't want to overpay. JDM can opt out, and if he does as crazy as this sounds, I'm fine with walking away from him if the money doesn't make sense. I don't see the point in tying up big dollars for a guy who will be 34 next year. The rate of success for those deals is so miniscule versus the probability of failure, for every Cruz or Ortiz there is a Puljos, Miggy, Kemp, etc. As for Erod, I just don't see the value with what he'll probably want (and likely get) on the market. Health, stuff, makeup make him a number 3 starter in my opinion who's already peaked and is probably already in his downturn. If he can be extended for a fair price, sure, but anything over 18 AAV in my opinion is a gross overpay.
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Post by voiceofreason on May 24, 2021 17:14:07 GMT -5
I append my message to extend him before he hits the market. And yes I consider it to be a priority, sometimes you don't realize what you have until it's gone.
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Post by manfred on May 24, 2021 17:44:01 GMT -5
I’m not in a mad rush to extend CVaz. I *do* think it is preferable later if at all possible. But to me, the priorities should be 1) lock up X and Devers. Move mountains. This better be the Mookie dividend. 2) Make the hard decision on ERod, which looks like it will either mean a) a big in-season discount or b) play it out and see if he recovers. 3) Make the hard decision on JDM. Could be another roster spot where a lot of dough comes back for #1. If Casas is almost ready, Dalbec is even marginally above average, and you lock up Raffy, maybe it is fine to redirect JDM’s money. 4) Once those decisions are made, deal with CVaz.
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Post by blizzards39 on May 24, 2021 19:14:07 GMT -5
No panic to do anything. On the other hand this is one position that there isn’t any options close.
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on May 24, 2021 19:42:31 GMT -5
I'd consider Vaz a low priority for an extension. They'll have to deal with JDM and Ed-Rod FA after this season. They'll also have to close in on decisions on X, who can walk after 2022, and Raffy, who's up after 2023. If they're going to extend Raffy at decent money, this is the off-season to do it. If he demands ridiculous money to forego FA, I think CB will totally have the stones to trade him either during the upcoming off-season or after 2022. He won't let him walk for just picks in return. If this formula holds (not extend CVaz, extend ERod, trade Raffy)... the only stones CB would have are in his head. Channelling my inner Yogi here, I really didn't say a lot of the things I said. If you read my post, I never said they should extend E-Rod and not extend Vaz. In truth, I'd love it if they could extend all these guys on reasonable contracts that induce, not inhibit, sustainable winning. But that's not likely to happen. Some will demand deals that do not make economic sense and therefore do not make baseball sense. I want the executive making the decisions on which guys to sign and which to guys to drive to Logan to be cold, calculating and unsentimental.
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Post by jdb on Aug 25, 2021 8:43:41 GMT -5
This seemed like a no brainer a few months back but I’m starting to wonder if this option is picked up. I would lean towards no at this point but curious everyone’s opinion.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 25, 2021 8:47:57 GMT -5
This seemed like a no brainer a few months back but I’m starting to wonder if this option is picked up. I would lean towards no at this point but curious everyone’s opinion. It's not huge money and any kind of quality catching is tough to come by. You can debate how much quality there was in 2021, but i do think the option gets picked up. It's not like Wong is busting down the door and Plawecki is not a regular catcher and is not good defensively either, so I think they'll cover themselves and bring him back.
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Aug 25, 2021 9:24:32 GMT -5
I wonder if they do something like give him a 2/$12M type extension, which is more reasonable than 1/$8M and lets him bounce back if he can but is not unreasonable or immovable if they have to move him to a backup role.
Still might be too rich. He's been abysmal except that one month.
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Post by manfred on Aug 25, 2021 9:30:52 GMT -5
The frustrating thing about CVaz is how dumb some of his mistakes are, especially on the base paths. I’d be fine going forward with his hitting and glove if he played a smart game. But it feels like he’s given away a *lot* of outs this year.
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Post by incandenza on Aug 25, 2021 13:03:54 GMT -5
The frustrating thing about CVaz is how dumb some of his mistakes are, especially on the base paths. I’d be fine going forward with his hitting and glove if he played a smart game. But it feels like he’s given away a *lot* of outs this year. Ironically, I think Vazquez is sort of in love with being "smart," so he tries to do sneaky stuff to take an extra base when the other team's not expecting it. That was working for a while with the stolen bases this season, but then it... stopped working.
Anyway, the free agent class is a little more promising than I would've guessed. I wouldn't be shocked if Bloom preferred one of those guys over Vazquez for next season.
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Post by jmei on Aug 25, 2021 14:44:45 GMT -5
He’s worth the $8M option. Guys like pitching to him and he has upside with the bat if he ever rediscovers his power. Bloom is not the kind of executive to overreact to one bad offensive year.
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Post by manfred on Aug 25, 2021 14:58:40 GMT -5
He’s worth the $8M option. Guys like pitching to him and he has upside with the bat if he ever rediscovers his power. Bloom is not the kind of executive to overreact to one bad offensive year. I agree that they should/will pick it up, but it is close in terms of $$. He is at .5 fWAR right now, and given how grueling a season he’s had, I’m not confident he’s going to add that much to that. He’s at .9 bWAR. So call him a 1.5 WAR guy — who will be a 31-year old catcher. That could be a tight squeeze if you expect 1 WAR for $8 million (that’s the going rate, right)? But… reservations aside, it is worth that risk.
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Post by stevedillard on Aug 25, 2021 15:23:04 GMT -5
Getting in shape would not be the worst for him.
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Post by widewordofsport on Aug 25, 2021 15:28:20 GMT -5
Having Plawecki seem competent helps that decision, but I think you keep him next year. Dream on him having a start to finish season in a contract year.
Does WAR work the same for catchers? I would think catcher defense, and the drop to what replacement value is, not to mention if it helps the pitching staff just wouldn't be measured by WAR value.
(I don't know how that would go for CV, just asking... personally Id ask Eovaldi and Sale and if they love throwing to him, ante up).
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Post by jmei on Aug 25, 2021 15:45:23 GMT -5
He’s worth the $8M option. Guys like pitching to him and he has upside with the bat if he ever rediscovers his power. Bloom is not the kind of executive to overreact to one bad offensive year. I agree that they should/will pick it up, but it is close in terms of $$. He is at .5 fWAR right now, and given how grueling a season he’s had, I’m not confident he’s going to add that much to that. He’s at .9 bWAR. So call him a 1.5 WAR guy — who will be a 31-year old catcher. That could be a tight squeeze if you expect 1 WAR for $8 million (that’s the going rate, right)? But… reservations aside, it is worth that risk. ZiPS projects .266/.315/.419 and 2.0 WAR next year and Steamer projects .255/.309/.411 and 2.6 WAR next year. Remember, Vazquez is coming off two excellent seasons in 2019-2020 (.278/.327/.472 slash, combined 4.9 fWAR in 710 PAs (prorates out to 3.1 WAR per 450 PAs)), so the projections give him a big bump despite the poor season so far. That's still pretty much a slam dunk, even if you weigh 2021 a bit more heavily than those systems do.
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Post by bcsox on Aug 25, 2021 15:52:32 GMT -5
few scattered thoughts on Vaz:
1. He looks super thick in the middle. If it is real what we are seeing for him to do that in a contract year speaks volumes to me about a high level of apprehension in handing him a multi year deal. If he cant get in shape with the moneyy on the line, whats going to happen when you let him get comfortable.
2. I know he threw someone out for the first time in months last night, but controlling the running game has been abysmal. Before I lay that at his feet, is the feeling that it is more on the pitchers, catchers or combo. For instance when Ottavino is in the game, I wont hold a thing against the catchers. His indifference to the running game is startling.
3. What is the state of free agent catchers if Vaz walks. Is Plawecki a 100 game guy? It doesnt appear there is anyone else in the system who can come up and be a serviceable backup. Bandy looks like organizational filler, and Hernandez is too far away.
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Post by wkdbigsoxfan on Aug 25, 2021 16:55:03 GMT -5
I think you have to do something about a long term catcher. Plawecki and Vaz are FA next year, not interested in extending either personally. If you can find a 3-4 year guy this year, do that. I doubt Wong or Hernandez are long term answers, but you can at least rely on Wong as a solid #2 in '23.
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Post by voiceofreason on Aug 25, 2021 17:11:40 GMT -5
He came into the season in better shape than ever having lost a considerable amount of weight and obviously leaner. Sometimes that backfires and it seems to be the case here, it would explain his power shortage. Bottom line is his play behind the plate is worth the contract. He is dedicated to the pitching staff and being the best player he can be, he really cares. The poster that said he tries to play a smart game and make a difference in every way he can is right and also in that it hasn't always worked out for him. He is a keeper unless they decide to spend a lot on a FA who is an upgrade, which I doubt highly. Baseball is not over flowing with great catchers right at the moment which makes them expensive.
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