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Imagining a Bogaerts Extension
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Post by chr31ter on Jul 28, 2022 11:02:19 GMT -5
He's played a grand total of 53 games at 3rd across the 2013 and 2014 seasons when he was 20-21 years old and quite frankly wasn't a good fielder no matter where they put him. I can get the side of the argument that they shouldn't be giving 30 mil AAV for 6 years with the assumption he will learn 3rd base no problem however I guess it doesn't really worry me and I'm of the belief he'd do fine there. Maybe he won't, I certainly think we'll find out in the next few seasons if he can do it since I do believe he only has another 2-3 seasons of being a viable SS left. Why couldn’t he move to 1st? Aren't we all kind of hoping that three years from now, Triston Casas is your full time 1B?
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Post by ematz1423 on Jul 28, 2022 11:09:37 GMT -5
He's played a grand total of 53 games at 3rd across the 2013 and 2014 seasons when he was 20-21 years old and quite frankly wasn't a good fielder no matter where they put him. I can get the side of the argument that they shouldn't be giving 30 mil AAV for 6 years with the assumption he will learn 3rd base no problem however I guess it doesn't really worry me and I'm of the belief he'd do fine there. Maybe he won't, I certainly think we'll find out in the next few seasons if he can do it since I do believe he only has another 2-3 seasons of being a viable SS left. So, three years from now, you're OK with paying maybe $60 million/year combined to Bogaerts to maybe play 3B at an acceptable level, and for Devers to be your DH? Yes, I probably would be. I would take the gamble on Xander if I was the Sox if he'd agree to a 6 year deal. I can understand why some wouldn't find that appealing though. Maybe Xander sticks at SS the whole contract too, probably not but who knows. They don't have any long term albatross contracts really left on the books.
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Post by theburn on Jul 28, 2022 11:32:36 GMT -5
So, three years from now, you're OK with paying maybe $60 million/year combined to Bogaerts to maybe play 3B at an acceptable level, and for Devers to be your DH? Yes, I probably would be. I would take the gamble on Xander if I was the Sox if he'd agree to a 6 year deal. I can understand why some wouldn't find that appealing though. Maybe Xander sticks at SS the whole contract too, probably not but who knows. They don't have any long term albatross contracts really left on the books. Like the 6-year deal Trevor Story got?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 28, 2022 13:08:18 GMT -5
So, three years from now, you're OK with paying maybe $60 million/year combined to Bogaerts to maybe play 3B at an acceptable level, and for Devers to be your DH? Yes, I probably would be. I would take the gamble on Xander if I was the Sox if he'd agree to a 6 year deal. I can understand why some wouldn't find that appealing though. Maybe Xander sticks at SS the whole contract too, probably not but who knows. They don't have any long term albatross contracts really left on the books. I'm not calling Story an albatross, but I do think there is albatross potential in those final 3 years. He is already mediocre offensively and I don't think that will improve. He's good defensively, but as he ages, I'm not so sure. I'm certainly not convinced that you plug him back at SS and you're good. Between his elbow and my opinion that 30 year old and over guys don't make the rangiest and best SS, I think Story has potential to be an albatross toward the back half. Hopefully he plays gold glove caliber 2b for awhile and doesn't continue to decline with his bat too much. He obviously can still hit homers, but he strikes out a lot and that batting average, even playing half his games at Fenway, continues to decline and he's not exactly a guy who walks often, so I do have concerns about him. I guess you can say the same thing about Bogaerts, except that Bogaerts has a much better hit tool so I expect him to sustain it over the next five years or so. With him it's the defense and where does he wind up? It should be 3b, but of course I hope the Sox have a better option there by then - some guy named Devers hopefully. My guess is that if Bloom feels that Devers is unextendable then he will circle back toward Bogaerts and sign him as the cheaper option, sort of like signing Story was the cheaper option to signing Bogaerts so he signed Story in case X leaves. My guess is X stays and Devers is traded. Guess B would be that both go. Unlikeliest is that both are extended, which I'd like to see, but don't think has much likelihood at all.
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Post by ematz1423 on Jul 28, 2022 14:41:05 GMT -5
Yes, I probably would be. I would take the gamble on Xander if I was the Sox if he'd agree to a 6 year deal. I can understand why some wouldn't find that appealing though. Maybe Xander sticks at SS the whole contract too, probably not but who knows. They don't have any long term albatross contracts really left on the books. I'm not calling Story an albatross, but I do think there is albatross potential in those final 3 years. He is already mediocre offensively and I don't think that will improve. He's good defensively, but as he ages, I'm not so sure. I'm certainly not convinced that you plug him back at SS and you're good. Between his elbow and my opinion that 30 year old and over guys don't make the rangiest and best SS, I think Story has potential to be an albatross toward the back half. Hopefully he plays gold glove caliber 2b for awhile and doesn't continue to decline with his bat too much. He obviously can still hit homers, but he strikes out a lot and that batting average, even playing half his games at Fenway, continues to decline and he's not exactly a guy who walks often, so I do have concerns about him. I guess you can say the same thing about Bogaerts, except that Bogaerts has a much better hit tool so I expect him to sustain it over the next five years or so. With him it's the defense and where does he wind up? It should be 3b, but of course I hope the Sox have a better option there by then - some guy named Devers hopefully. My guess is that if Bloom feels that Devers is unextendable then he will circle back toward Bogaerts and sign him as the cheaper option, sort of like signing Story was the cheaper option to signing Bogaerts so he signed Story in case X leaves. My guess is X stays and Devers is traded. Guess B would be that both go. Unlikeliest is that both are extended, which I'd like to see, but don't think has much likelihood at all. Fair and valid points, but I guess I'm of the mindset that they're going to spend the money somewhere unless they decide to just slash the payroll which I don't see them doing. They could certainly go with the 4 quarters equals a dollar strategy and spread the money around to lesser players but I guess I'd rather spend it and risk it on the homegrown SS who if he stays in Boston could be one of the all time Sox legends. I know that's a fans perspective and not the best way to look at it but eh, I'm a fan so sue me!
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 28, 2022 15:40:46 GMT -5
Yes, I probably would be. I would take the gamble on Xander if I was the Sox if he'd agree to a 6 year deal. I can understand why some wouldn't find that appealing though. Maybe Xander sticks at SS the whole contract too, probably not but who knows. They don't have any long term albatross contracts really left on the books. I'm not calling Story an albatross, but I do think there is albatross potential in those final 3 years. He is already mediocre offensively and I don't think that will improve. He's good defensively, but as he ages, I'm not so sure. I'm certainly not convinced that you plug him back at SS and you're good. Between his elbow and my opinion that 30 year old and over guys don't make the rangiest and best SS, I think Story has potential to be an albatross toward the back half. Hopefully he plays gold glove caliber 2b for awhile and doesn't continue to decline with his bat too much. He obviously can still hit homers, but he strikes out a lot and that batting average, even playing half his games at Fenway, continues to decline and he's not exactly a guy who walks often, so I do have concerns about him. I guess you can say the same thing about Bogaerts, except that Bogaerts has a much better hit tool so I expect him to sustain it over the next five years or so. With him it's the defense and where does he wind up? It should be 3b, but of course I hope the Sox have a better option there by then - some guy named Devers hopefully. My guess is that if Bloom feels that Devers is unextendable then he will circle back toward Bogaerts and sign him as the cheaper option, sort of like signing Story was the cheaper option to signing Bogaerts so he signed Story in case X leaves. My guess is X stays and Devers is traded. Guess B would be that both go. Unlikeliest is that both are extended, which I'd like to see, but don't think has much likelihood at all. They are different hitters completely, but I compare Story to a late career pre-Machado knee version of Pedroia.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 28, 2022 16:50:30 GMT -5
I'm not calling Story an albatross, but I do think there is albatross potential in those final 3 years. He is already mediocre offensively and I don't think that will improve. He's good defensively, but as he ages, I'm not so sure. I'm certainly not convinced that you plug him back at SS and you're good. Between his elbow and my opinion that 30 year old and over guys don't make the rangiest and best SS, I think Story has potential to be an albatross toward the back half. Hopefully he plays gold glove caliber 2b for awhile and doesn't continue to decline with his bat too much. He obviously can still hit homers, but he strikes out a lot and that batting average, even playing half his games at Fenway, continues to decline and he's not exactly a guy who walks often, so I do have concerns about him. I guess you can say the same thing about Bogaerts, except that Bogaerts has a much better hit tool so I expect him to sustain it over the next five years or so. With him it's the defense and where does he wind up? It should be 3b, but of course I hope the Sox have a better option there by then - some guy named Devers hopefully. My guess is that if Bloom feels that Devers is unextendable then he will circle back toward Bogaerts and sign him as the cheaper option, sort of like signing Story was the cheaper option to signing Bogaerts so he signed Story in case X leaves. My guess is X stays and Devers is traded. Guess B would be that both go. Unlikeliest is that both are extended, which I'd like to see, but don't think has much likelihood at all. Fair and valid points, but I guess I'm of the mindset that they're going to spend the money somewhere unless they decide to just slash the payroll which I don't see them doing. They could certainly go with the 4 quarters equals a dollar strategy and spread the money around to lesser players but I guess I'd rather spend it and risk it on the homegrown SS who if he stays in Boston could be one of the all time Sox legends. I know that's a fans perspective and not the best way to look at it but eh, I'm a fan so sue me! Agreed. The Sox will spend up to the limit and probably in the manner you're speaking of.
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Post by bosoxnation on Jul 28, 2022 21:13:43 GMT -5
with the lack of top tier talent on this team we should pay the best SS in RS history. POINT BLANK PERIOD. 6 years 170 million. SIGN HIM UP!
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Jul 28, 2022 21:19:31 GMT -5
with the lack of top tier talent on this team we should pay the best SS in RS history. POINT BLANK PERIOD. 6 years 170 million. SIGN HIM UP! That's way too much money for Nomar, he hasn't played in years
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 28, 2022 21:48:14 GMT -5
with the lack of top tier talent on this team we should pay the best SS in RS history. POINT BLANK PERIOD. 6 years 170 million. SIGN HIM UP! That's way too much money for Nomar, he hasn't played in years Joe Cronin was pretty good, too and the seasons Vern Stephens had in 1949 and 1950 were awesome. Petrocelli was fantastic in 1969. Pesky was an OBP machine. Valentin was underrated. The Sox have had some great SS. I'd still rate Nomar first and X second.
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Post by bosoxnation on Jul 28, 2022 23:54:00 GMT -5
That's way too much money for Nomar, he hasn't played in years Joe Cronin was pretty good, too and the seasons Vern Stephens had in 1949 and 1950 were awesome. Petrocelli was fantastic in 1969. Pesky was an OBP machine. Valentin was underrated. The Sox have had some great SS. I'd still rate Nomar first and X second. How many WS did Nomar help us win?
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keninten
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Post by keninten on Jul 29, 2022 0:34:31 GMT -5
Joe Cronin was pretty good, too and the seasons Vern Stephens had in 1949 and 1950 were awesome. Petrocelli was fantastic in 1969. Pesky was an OBP machine. Valentin was underrated. The Sox have had some great SS. I'd still rate Nomar first and X second. How many WS did Nomar help us win? One
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jul 29, 2022 1:01:13 GMT -5
Joe Cronin was pretty good, too and the seasons Vern Stephens had in 1949 and 1950 were awesome. Petrocelli was fantastic in 1969. Pesky was an OBP machine. Valentin was underrated. The Sox have had some great SS. I'd still rate Nomar first and X second. How many WS did Nomar help us win? How many times did Xander hit .370 with plus D? Ppl forget how good prime Nomar was. There are currently thousands of 30 year old New Englanders who mimicked him in little league Career .321/.386/.589 in the playoffs too. Xander is at .231/.309/.381 in his career in the playoffs. And yes, that was a difference in era but no it does not explain that vast gap in performance. So really who was contributing more to their team in the playoffs? Just because Nomar couldn’t single handedly win a WS doesn’t make him a worse player than Bogaerts. I’d argue Bogaerts can thank his teammates for his rings. He’s hit .186/.250/.256 in the WS in his career. Sub-Franchian Playoff performance is another reason why I’m not comfy giving him 7-8 years and over 200 mill now that I’ve reviewed the numbers
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Post by foreverred9 on Jul 29, 2022 6:45:39 GMT -5
Nomar - 41.2 bWAR / 39 fWAR in 966 games with the Sox Xander - 33.1 bWAR / 32.6 fWAR in 1210 games with the Sox
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 29, 2022 7:03:57 GMT -5
Joe Cronin was pretty good, too and the seasons Vern Stephens had in 1949 and 1950 were awesome. Petrocelli was fantastic in 1969. Pesky was an OBP machine. Valentin was underrated. The Sox have had some great SS. I'd still rate Nomar first and X second. How many WS did Nomar help us win? Hoe many WS did Ted William's help the Sox win? None. Guess he wasn't too good then? How many did Jonny Gomes help the Sox win? 1. So would your logic say that Gomes was superior to Teddy Ballgame?
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Post by fenwaydouble on Jul 29, 2022 7:09:23 GMT -5
How many WS did Nomar help us win? How many times did Xander hit .370 with plus D? Ppl forget how good prime Nomar was. There are currently thousands of 30 year old New Englanders who mimicked him in little league Career .321/.386/.589 in the playoffs too. Xander is at .231/.309/.381 in his career in the playoffs. And yes, that was a difference in era but no it does not explain that vast gap in performance. So really who was contributing more to their team in the playoffs? Just because Nomar couldn’t single handedly win a WS doesn’t make him a worse player than Bogaerts. I’d argue Bogaerts can thank his teammates for his rings. He’s hit .186/.250/.256 in the WS in his career. Sub-Franchian Playoff performance is another reason why I’m not comfy giving him 7-8 years and over 200 mill now that I’ve reviewed the numbers Playoff performance is generally not predictive and shouldn't be a real factor in whether you're giving Bogaerts a deal. Mookie also couldn't hit in the playoffs with the Red Sox but he's been just fine in LA.
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Post by chr31ter on Jul 29, 2022 7:34:21 GMT -5
with the lack of top tier talent on this team we should pay the best SS in RS history. POINT BLANK PERIOD. 6 years 170 million. SIGN HIM UP! This seems like they'd be rewarding him for what he's done in the past rather than paying him on what he's going to be over the next six years. What position is he going to play in years 4-6???
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Post by manfred on Jul 29, 2022 7:40:58 GMT -5
Nomar - 41.2 bWAR / 39 fWAR in 966 games with the Sox Xander - 33.1 bWAR / 32.6 fWAR in 1210 games with the Sox Nomar is a tragedy. He only played 150+ games 3 times. He was a runaway HOFer when healthy. Even with the injuries, the guy could still hit to the end. Cruel.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Jul 29, 2022 8:10:40 GMT -5
How many WS did Nomar help us win? How many times did Xander hit .370 with plus D? Ppl forget how good prime Nomar was. There are currently thousands of 30 year old New Englanders who mimicked him in little league Career .321/.386/.589 in the playoffs too. Xander is at .231/.309/.381 in his career in the playoffs. And yes, that was a difference in era but no it does not explain that vast gap in performance. So really who was contributing more to their team in the playoffs? Just because Nomar couldn’t single handedly win a WS doesn’t make him a worse player than Bogaerts. I’d argue Bogaerts can thank his teammates for his rings. He’s hit .186/.250/.256 in the WS in his career. Sub-Franchian Playoff performance is another reason why I’m not comfy giving him 7-8 years and over 200 mill now that I’ve reviewed the numbers This. In his prime there was a very good argument for Nomar over Jeter. It's amazing what years of health can do for your career. Nomar fell off a cliff at 30, and Jeter kept on playing at an elite level. One is just another good baseball player (more than that to a Sox fan) and the other is regarded as one of the greatest players.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Jul 29, 2022 8:12:25 GMT -5
You look back at what Nomar did between the ages of 23-29, with plus D at SS and it's just amazing. There was no better all-around shortstop in his prime that I ever saw.
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Post by bosoxnation on Jul 29, 2022 9:24:21 GMT -5
hahaha i got you guys going!!! 😂
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Post by julyanmorley on Jul 29, 2022 9:28:08 GMT -5
1) Nomar Garciaparra 2) Xander Bogaerts 3) Johnny Pesky 4) Rico Petrocelli 5) John Valentin 6) Joe Cronin 7) Vern Stephens 8) Freddy Parent 9) Rick Burleson 10) Heinie Wagner
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 29, 2022 9:52:51 GMT -5
1) Nomar Garciaparra 2) Xander Bogaerts 3) Johnny Pesky 4) Rico Petrocelli 5) John Valentin 6) Joe Cronin 7) Vern Stephens 8) Freddy Parent 9) Rick Burleson 10) Heinie Wagner Wagner must be the best of all those SS because he along with RF Harry Hooper are the only Red Sox players to win four World Championships with Boston.If I had to rate them, I'd have Nomar, Bogaerts, Cronin, Pesky, Stephens (he'd be higher had he played longer for the Sox - this guy was totally underrated!), Petrocelli, Valentin, Parent, Burleson, and a lot of debate after that.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jul 29, 2022 10:35:52 GMT -5
Nomar is the reason I started to love baseball, my favorite Red Sox of all time and it will never not make me sad how he fell off. If he had still been on the team in '04, or Grady Little doesn't Grady Little in '03, Nomar gets talked about/remembered in a dramatically different light both career wise and in Boston.
Funny one of my favorite non-Red Sox ever is Troy Tulowitzki, who had a sort of similarly sudden drop off after being elite (though not peak-Nomar-level).
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jul 29, 2022 10:38:44 GMT -5
Thanks guys. Means a lot.
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