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7/2/-7/4 Red Sox @ Athletics Series Thread
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Post by sarasoxer on Jul 4, 2021 18:45:52 GMT -5
Aroldis Chapman has been brutal since the sticky stuff crackdown and Cole has not been ace like either. I read that they both got heartily booed. Hard to go anywhere when your ace and closer struggles. It is a new day for some of these hurlers. Hopefully Barnes gets back to being dominant. God he scares me. You pretty much figure he will go 3 and 2 with each batter. That's the Barnes I don't want to see. Trust your stuff!! Yah but.....his stuff and command may not be the same without the sticky....
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jul 4, 2021 18:50:04 GMT -5
Barnes scares you? Dude he has had basically no rest.
Andriese topped out at 92 with no control on a million days rest yesterday.
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Post by reasonabledoubt on Jul 4, 2021 18:53:43 GMT -5
Sox have been in 3 very memorable 1-0 games this season. And Pivetta started all 3:
The 1-0 win against deGrom, 5IP, 1H, 3W, 7K. The close but not so close no-hitter with the loss coming on the Barnes wild-pitch, 6.2IP, 0H, 2W, 8K. And today, 7IP 2H 2W 10K.
This could really turn into an incredible heist. Phillies and their fans were so down on him. Fans thought he was pretty full of himself for someone that was terrible.
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Post by worldbfree on Jul 4, 2021 18:53:58 GMT -5
The bottom of the order is mediocre at best. If they won’t bring up Duran to replace Santana, they should look for a left handed bat on the trade market.
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Post by incandenza on Jul 4, 2021 19:13:08 GMT -5
Barnes scares you? Dude he has had basically no rest. Well, if Cora's not going to rest him then I guess we should be scared of Barnes.
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Post by sarasoxer on Jul 4, 2021 19:24:37 GMT -5
Barnes scares you? Dude he has had basically no rest. Andriese topped out at 92 with no control on a million days rest yesterday. Barnes was great early...not so lately reverting to last year's form subsequent to sticky rules...walk prone and suspect command... not an ideal "closer". Andriese gives zero confidence....
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Jul 4, 2021 19:40:04 GMT -5
Come on. Those guys came into the year with such high hopes and now they're 10.5 back and everything is going wrong. Don't you feel at least a little bit bad for them? Me either. When my father-in-law was winning at cards and the people he was beating weren't drawing anything and started to gripe, he used to say, sarcastically, "I'm so sad I'm miserable." That's about how I feel. Cue the tiny violins.
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Post by manfred on Jul 4, 2021 19:43:32 GMT -5
Sox have been in 3 very memorable 1-0 games this season. And Pivetta started all 3: The 1-0 win against deGrom, 5IP, 1H, 3W, 7K. The close but not so close no-hitter with the loss coming on the Barnes wild-pitch, 6.2IP, 0H, 2W, 8K. And today, 7IP 2H 2W 10K. This could really turn into an incredible heist. Phillies and their fans were so down on him. Fans thought he was pretty full of himself for someone that was terrible. I looovvve the 1-0 win. And… he seems a bit cocky, but you know what? He’s starting to earn it, so I can live with it.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Jul 4, 2021 20:30:46 GMT -5
Vazquez had a good approach and went the opposite way, and Santana managed a line drive that just happened to be right at a guy. They just didn't fall in for hits.
Marwin, predictably enough, struck out on a ball two feet out of the zone, but hey, it's not like they had an all-star sitting on the bench who could have pinch hit for him...
it's so strange, whenever Cora decides on an offday for a guy, it seems he'll never even pinch hit them. I think the idea is that if you use them you lose some of the benefits of the off-day
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 4, 2021 21:29:30 GMT -5
Sox have been in 3 very memorable 1-0 games this season. And Pivetta started all 3: The 1-0 win against deGrom, 5IP, 1H, 3W, 7K. The close but not so close no-hitter with the loss coming on the Barnes wild-pitch, 6.2IP, 0H, 2W, 8K. And today, 7IP 2H 2W 10K. This could really turn into an incredible heist. Phillies and their fans were so down on him. Fans thought he was pretty full of himself for someone that was terrible. "Full of himself" = confident that he had the talent to be a good MLB pitcher and praying nightly to be dealt to an organization with any kind of clue about what makes pitching good. There are no words in the languages of Men, Elves, or Dwarves to express how clueless the Phillies were about him.
This may sound self-aggrandizing, but it's actually meant to be the opposite. When we traded for him, I immediately went to his B-Ref splits page, which is the first thing I do any time we make a significant pitching addition.
It took me less than a minutes to find a stat that screamed upside. In his career, he had been hit harder by 7 through 9 hitters than 1-2 or 5-6. (That happens to be my favorite split!) What? How do you let that happen? I'd never seen it before. If you could simply normalize that split, he'd be a solid #4 immediately. And apparently, no one in the Phillies' org was aware of this. (That stuff is in the Pivetta trade thread, BTW).
A bit later I took another look and discovered he had been one of the best pitchers in all of MLB with 2 outs and nobody on (that's the first post in his own thread). Now, that's the situation where you have the least concern about making a mistake. It's consistent with the first finding -- you get hit hard by bad hitters because you are worried about walking them when that's against the unwritten rules, and hence throw too many good strikes, and you are lights-out with 2 outs and nobody on because you're least worried about walks. But it's also consistent with his never being taught the first thing about how to pitch rather than just throw. I mean, if the Phillies had known that, it changes everything, right? And again, it's right on his B-ref Splits page. Really. (The split is; I did have to do some extra work to see just how good his split was compared to others).
So it makes me very happy that he turned out to be as good as I thought he would be (and quite possibly better, if he can become more consistent with what appears to be new and improved mechanics). But that was an easy call ... for anyone who looked. The Phillies never looked.
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Post by benzinger on Jul 4, 2021 22:14:26 GMT -5
Hernandez 8 Verdugo 9 Martinez DH Devers 5 Vazquez 2 Gonzalez 6 Santana 7 Dalbec 3 Chavis 4 Now THATS a John Farrell Sunday classic Hopefully Pivetta can give them some length Amazing to get a win with this lineup! It truly seemed like a lineup with no bottom. I’d see Marwin and I figured we were close to turning it over. Then I saw Santana and I was sure we were there. But then Dalbec came up and I was CERTAIN he was the 9th guy. But....then along came Chavis.
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Post by benzinger on Jul 4, 2021 22:25:19 GMT -5
Hernandez 8 Verdugo 9 Martinez DH Devers 5 Vazquez 2 Gonzalez 6 Santana 7 Dalbec 3 Chavis 4 Now THATS a John Farrell Sunday classic Hopefully Pivetta can give them some length Amazing to get a win with this lineup! It truly seemed like a lineup with no bottom. I’d see Marwin and I figured we were close to turning it over. Then I saw Santana and I was sure we were there. But then Dalbec came up and I was CERTAIN he was the 9th guy. But....then along came Chavis. That bottom 4 in the order was 1-14 with 9k’s today, btw. But Duran isn’t ready yet(or something like that).
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Post by Don Caballero on Jul 4, 2021 23:32:23 GMT -5
That bottom 4 in the order was 1-14 with 9k’s today, btw. But Duran isn’t ready yet(or something like that). Bro if there's ever a team in the major leagues that get to enjoy the luxury of not rushing a prospect to potentially enhance the bottom of the order of a getaway lineup, then that team is certainly the Red Sox.
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Post by soxinsf on Jul 5, 2021 0:37:12 GMT -5
That bottom 4 in the order was 1-14 with 9k’s today, btw. But Duran isn’t ready yet(or something like that). Bro if there's ever a team in the major leagues that get to enjoy the luxury of not rushing a prospect to potentially enhance the bottom of the order of a getaway lineup, then that team is certainly the Red Sox. And so this is how it goes. The bottom of the order goes 1 for 14 and people make excuses for Santana and think that Duran can’t help. It will change one of these days. Hopefully it won’t cost them too much. It, and Andriese, cost them the game on Saturday and it almost cost the game today.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 5, 2021 2:54:51 GMT -5
Hernandez 8 Verdugo 9 Martinez DH Devers 5 Vazquez 2 Gonzalez 6 Santana 7 Dalbec 3 Chavis 4 Now THATS a John Farrell Sunday classic Hopefully Pivetta can give them some length Amazing to get a win with this lineup! It truly seemed like a lineup with no bottom. I’d see Marwin and I figured we were close to turning it over. Then I saw Santana and I was sure we were there. But then Dalbec came up and I was CERTAIN he was the 9th guy. But....then along came Chavis. I trust that everyone complaining about Cora resting guys was born after 1970 or so ... which is to say, they have no memories of 1978. Sox were 57-25 on July 8 -- an even better first half than 2018 -- and then went 29-36 through September 16th, turning a 10 G lead over the Yankees into a 3.5 G deficit. Player fatigue was widely regarded as the culprit. You probably know what happened after that.
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ianrs
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Post by ianrs on Jul 5, 2021 4:06:24 GMT -5
Cora was notoriously blasted for resting guys in the past too and it turned out pretty well.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jul 5, 2021 5:31:47 GMT -5
How did Danny Santana ever have an .857 OPS? Nothing about his career or age suggest he deserves a place on a World Series contending team (when you have the best record in the AL by July I think you qualify as a contender).
Awesome to wake up to Pivetta returning to being awesome again and Alex Verdugo had himself a good game despite the 1-0 score.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jul 5, 2021 9:12:46 GMT -5
Bro if there's ever a team in the major leagues that get to enjoy the luxury of not rushing a prospect to potentially enhance the bottom of the order of a getaway lineup, then that team is certainly the Red Sox. And so this is how it goes. The bottom of the order goes 1 for 14 and people make excuses for Santana and think that Duran can’t help. It will change one of these days. Hopefully it won’t cost them too much. It, and Andriese, cost them the game on Saturday and it almost cost the game today. There’s nobody that thinks Duran won’t be better than Santana, that’s not an especially high bar to clear. There are people who don’t want to rush a prospect up when he’s had 2 months of reps at AAA. Those are very different things. Also who on earth is making excuses for Santana?? There’s nothing wrong with making sure a guy has a sturdy foundation to build a successful career off of. I don’t want a situation where we rushed him up and have to option him back down. But I get it- you’re a big fan who thinks he could have made that absurd play Kikè made standing up, despite all reports saying his defense is a weak point. He’s a 45 glove right now, and that’s probably the high end
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jul 5, 2021 9:20:06 GMT -5
Also for the record an OF of Verdugo-Hernandez-Renfroe is A LOT better defensively than Duran-Verdugo-Renfroe, im sure that’s a factor in their decision making right now
I think we will see Duran soon though, his bat is making too much of an impact to ignore
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 5, 2021 9:28:39 GMT -5
Amazing to get a win with this lineup! It truly seemed like a lineup with no bottom. I’d see Marwin and I figured we were close to turning it over. Then I saw Santana and I was sure we were there. But then Dalbec came up and I was CERTAIN he was the 9th guy. But....then along came Chavis. I trust that everyone complaining about Cora resting guys was born after 1970 or so ... which is to say, they have no memories of 1978. Sox were 57-25 on July 8 -- an even better first half than 2018 -- and then went 29-36 through September 16th, turning a 10 G lead over the Yankees into a 3.5 G deficit. Player fatigue was widely regarded as the culprit. You probably know what happened after that. I was born after 1970 and was too young to see 1978 but I know what you're talking about. It was even more extreme than refusing to rest players. Don Zimmer was playing injured players every day. Butch Hobson was rearranging his elbow chips between pitches and then throwing the ball away when somebody would hit a grounder in his direction. Dwight Evans was suffering dizzy spells in RF. Fisk was beat up really badly. The clubhouse had some sort of caste system where the food spread was intended for the regulars and the bench guys had to wait their turn. And if Zimmer wasn't doing enough damage with that, he made sure to put personal feelings above what was best for the club by yanking a fairly effective Bill Lee out of the rotation when he clearly had no better alternative. Emotionally I hate seeing the quasi-spring training lineup, but I understand why he's doing what he's doing. Alex Cora will not "chase wins" when he doesn't think he has to - hence the move to go to Matt Andriese rather than risk overusing Workman (I don't agree with that one, but I understand it). What we've seen from Alex Cora, particularly in 2018, when he thinks his team has the goods in the regular season, which he knew was the case in 2018, and suspects strongly in 2021, he will play the long game. Then in the playoffs, Cora changes gears and will do anything to chase a win in the post-season. He will rob Peter to pay Paul if he thinks he can secure a win and then worry about later - later. In a 11 win sprint, I understand the wisdom of that. The trick is to figure out how to balance it afterwards - like the way the pitching staff was so messed up at the beginning of the 2019 season - but if he get another opportunity we will be happy, because the Sox might have won another Championship and I think Cora is one who learns from his mistakes. I'd love to see what Cora does differently if the Sox have themselves a long (hopefully championship) post-season.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jul 5, 2021 10:29:54 GMT -5
Can we at least release Santana, try Franchy again and if that doesn't work THEN go to Duran?
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 5, 2021 11:44:51 GMT -5
I trust that everyone complaining about Cora resting guys was born after 1970 or so ... which is to say, they have no memories of 1978. Sox were 57-25 on July 8 -- an even better first half than 2018 -- and then went 29-36 through September 16th, turning a 10 G lead over the Yankees into a 3.5 G deficit. Player fatigue was widely regarded as the culprit. You probably know what happened after that. I was born after 1970 and was too young to see 1978 but I know what you're talking about. It was even more extreme than refusing to rest players. Don Zimmer was playing injured players every day. Butch Hobson was rearranging his elbow chips between pitches and then throwing the ball away when somebody would hit a grounder in his direction. Dwight Evans was suffering dizzy spells in RF. Fisk was beat up really badly. The clubhouse had some sort of caste system where the food spread was intended for the regulars and the bench guys had to wait their turn. And if Zimmer wasn't doing enough damage with that, he made sure to put personal feelings above what was best for the club by yanking a fairly effective Bill Lee out of the rotation when he clearly had no better alternative. Emotionally I hate seeing the quasi-spring training lineup, but I understand why he's doing what he's doing. Alex Cora will not "chase wins" when he doesn't think he has to - hence the move to go to Matt Andriese rather than risk overusing Workman (I don't agree with that one, but I understand it). What we've seen from Alex Cora, particularly in 2018, when he thinks his team has the goods in the regular season, which he knew was the case in 2018, and suspects strongly in 2021, he will play the long game. Then in the playoffs, Cora changes gears and will do anything to chase a win in the post-season. He will rob Peter to pay Paul if he thinks he can secure a win and then worry about later - later. In a 11 win sprint, I understand the wisdom of that. The trick is to figure out how to balance it afterwards - like the way the pitching staff was so messed up at the beginning of the 2019 season - but if he get another opportunity we will be happy, because the Sox might have won another Championship and I think Cora is one who learns from his mistakes. I'd love to see what Cora does differently if the Sox have themselves a long (hopefully championship) post-season. Good rundown of the other problems. Zimmer actually said that he wouldn't take Hobson out of the lineup because it was his responsibility to say he wasn't physically capable, and Hobson said that he would try to play no matter what because it was the manager's job to write the lineup. He made 22 errors in his last 44 games at 3B (.845 Fielding %), several of them game-deciding.
Evans was hitting .259 / .343 / .472 and playing his usual superb D on August 28 when he was beaned by Mike Parrott of the Mariners. He missed 4 games, and Zimmer kept him in the lineup through Sept. 23, while he hit .164 / .281 / .273 and made 4 errors (he had 2 before that). At that point Hobson was also hitting .195 / .212 / .305 in his last 23 games. On the 24th Zimmer put Jack Brohamer at 3B, Hobson at DH, and Rice in RF, and they won their last 8 games to force the one-game playoff, with Hobson hitting .303 / .351 / .394.
But you're right that the playing-favorites thing was even worse. He demanded that Bernie Carbo be dumped, claiming in his biography that he was a destructive clubhouse influence. So destructive that Bill Lee quit the team for a few days in protest. When Lee did the same thing in Montreal a few years later, Zimmer was quoted as saying "When he did it to me (emphasis mine), I was praying he wouldn't come back."
Oops. When Lee walked out he was 9-4 with a 2.82 ERA (to use the stats that Zimmer would have judged him by). And he was "praying he wouldn't come back."
Some people don't get what kind of person Zimmer was. Pedro deserves his spot in the HOF just for knocking his sorry ass to the ground. I read the relevant parts of his autobiography in the bookstore and couldn't find any admission of culpability for the Sox collapse, instead finding bullshit like "Fergie Jenkins [another guy he disliked personally and was dumped for nothing] just couldn't pitch for us."
Gene Conley owned a paper-supply company (IIRC) and our family business was a customer. He made personal sales calls and I had met him once very briefly, but when we opened a new building he came to the party and I got to talk to him. Sweetheart of a guy.
"Do you know that your name was just in Sports Illustrated?" I asked him.
"No!"
"Yeah, they just did a story on Don Zimmer and he told the story of how he got married at home plate before a minor league game. And then he adds, "And then I had to face Gene Conley."
Gene roared with laughter. "Did he say I struck him out three times?"
I laughed. "Of course not!" That was Zimmer: incapable of saying anything negative about himself even when it would make for a more interesting story.
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Post by soxjim on Jul 5, 2021 11:52:39 GMT -5
Then in the playoffs, Cora changes gears and will do anything to chase a win in the post-season. He will rob Peter to pay Paul if he thinks he can secure a win and then worry about later - later. In a 11 win sprint, I understand the wisdom of that. The trick is to figure out how to balance it afterwards - like the way the pitching staff was so messed up at the beginning of the 2019 season - but if he get another opportunity we will be happy, because the Sox might have won another Championship and I think Cora is one who learns from his mistakes. I'd love to see what Cora does differently if the Sox have themselves a long (hopefully championship) post-season. What specific mistake(s) did Cora make and is there any link to previous 2019 oi what he should have done prior to the season or is it just Monday Morning QB?
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 5, 2021 12:08:49 GMT -5
Also for the record an OF of Verdugo-Hernandez-Renfroe is A LOT better defensively than Duran-Verdugo-Renfroe, im sure thatâs a factor in their decision making right now I think we will see Duran soon though, his bat is making too much of an impact to ignore Duran has played 2 games in LF (and 6 in RF), so you'd just put him in CF. He may well be average there now, but that's a likely 5 run downgrade over Kiké if you called him up now. It's not clear at all that he's an improvement, and since you'd have to either move Marwin or go to 13 pitchers (and they have more than 13 good ones) to get him on the 26 man, he would need to be a clear improvement.
As good as he's playing, there's no need for him unless / until there's an injury (or unless Franchy fails again). Best case scenario is that we see him in September, and, thanks to the extra time in AAA, he's actually ready to start some games in CF and be an upgrade, and then be the extra position player on the post-season roster as they carry one fewer pitcher. Given his current quality of play (as good as it is), bringing him up before then just to bring him up would be hugely counter-productive.
Franchy will have Santana's spot with a few weeks, it can be hoped.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jul 5, 2021 12:17:31 GMT -5
Also for the record an OF of Verdugo-Hernandez-Renfroe is A LOT better defensively than Duran-Verdugo-Renfroe, im sure thatâs a factor in their decision making right now I think we will see Duran soon though, his bat is making too much of an impact to ignore Duran has played 2 games in LF (and 6 in RF), so you'd just put him in CF. He may well be average there now, but that's a likely 5 run downgrade over Kiké if you called him up now. It's not clear at all that he's an improvement, and since you'd have to either move Marwin or go to 13 pitchers (and they have more than 13 good ones) to get him on the 26 man, he would need to be a clear improvement.
As good as he's playing, there's no need for him unless / until there's an injury (or unless Franchy fails again). Best case scenario is that we see him in September, and, thanks to the extra time in AAA, he's actually ready to start some games in CF and be an upgrade, and then be the extra position player on the post-season roster as they carry one fewer pitcher. Given his current quality of play (as good as it is), bringing him up before then just to bring him up would be hugely counter-productive.
Franchy will have Santana's spot with a few weeks, it can be hoped.
You had me up until the final sentence here. A few weeks? What new information could they be waiting for? Same goes for Andriese.
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