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Red Sox vs. Astros 2021 ALCS Gameday Thread
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Post by manfred on Oct 22, 2021 9:20:11 GMT -5
Benny 63 runs scored 73 rbis 766 OPS batting 2,3 in the order Renfroe 89.... 96... 816 OPS batting 6,7 Last I checked runs matter. If you were a GM who would have more trade value? Would you have rathered the Sox had Benny instead of Hunter this past season? I am not arguing for Benny over Renfroe, but that comp is a bit unfair. The Sox scored 829 runs, and the Royals 686. If they switched teams, their numbers would look much different.
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Post by incandenza on Oct 22, 2021 9:30:48 GMT -5
Benny 63 runs scored 73 rbis 766 OPS batting 2,3 in the order Renfroe 89.... 96... 816 OPS batting 6,7 Last I checked runs matter. If you were a GM who would have more trade value?Would you have rathered the Sox had Benny instead of Hunter this past season? Feel free to value runs and RBI all you want, but I doubt there's a GM in the game who even looks at those stats these days, for reasons that start with what manfred points out.
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Post by voiceofreason on Oct 22, 2021 9:31:06 GMT -5
Benny 63 runs scored 73 rbis 766 OPS batting 2,3 in the order Renfroe 89.... 96... 816 OPS batting 6,7 Last I checked runs matter. If you were a GM who would have more trade value? Would you have rathered the Sox had Benny instead of Hunter this past season? I am not arguing for Benny over Renfroe, but that comp is a bit unfair. The Sox scored 829 runs, and the Royals 686. If they switched teams, their numbers would look much different. How many players put up those numbers batting 6th or 7th in all of baseball? We can go back to Hobson in 1979 to even come close and he didn't even match that. I really don't get the down playing of his season. For a guy not batting in the top 5 he had a tremendous season matched by very few based on where he hit in the lineup. Which is a testament to the entire lineup really, but stop with the he didn't deserve to be the every day starter stuff that I have read here.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 22, 2021 9:37:05 GMT -5
1979 Butch Hobson comes to mind.....not many others That is who came to mind for me also. Jason Varitek batted .273 with 25 HRs and 85 RBIs batting out of the #9 hole in the 2003 lineup. Check out this ridiculous lineup with its triple crown category stats: Johnny Damon: .273 BA, 12 HR, 67 RBI (He'd have been seasons) Todd Walker: .283 BA, 13 HR, 85 RBI (strong post-season) Nomar Garciaparra: .301 BA, 28 HR, 105 RBI Manny Ramirez: .325, 37 HR, 104 RBI (2nd in batting average) David Ortiz: .288, 31 HR, 101 RBI (didn't become a regular until July!) Kevin Millar: .276, 25 HR, 96 RBI Trot Nixon: .307, 28 HR, 87 RBI Bill Mueller: .326, 19 HR, 85 RBI (league batting champ batting 8th!) Jason Varitek: .273, 25 HR, 85 RBI (don't get #9 hitters like that often) Nothing tops the 1950 Red Sox lineup though. That lineup didn't have a DH because the DH didn't come around until 1973, but they had 9 regulars. Ted Williams would have been a DH that year had the DH existed perhaps. He was injured in the all-star game so his numbers were merely ridiculous rather than otherworldly, and during his absence a utility guy named Billy Goodman got regular ABs, enough to qualify for the batting title he won with a .354 batting average. If the DH existed back then, picture this lineup, complete with slash line and triple crown stats: LF Billy Goodman: .354/.427/.455, 4 HR, 68 RBI (batting champ; utility man who got ABs in Williams' absence) SS Johnny Pesky: .312/.437/.388, 1 HR, 49 RBI (Mr Red Sox, but so few realize how much of an OBP machine he was) CF Dom DiMaggio: .328/.414/.452, 7 HR, 70 RBI (Like Pesky, HOF rates; career cut short and missed time due to WW2) DH Ted Williams: .317/.452/.647, 28 HR, 97 RBI (Injured in AS game; only 334 AB and 416 plate appearances) 1B Walt Dropo: .322/.378/.583, 34 HR, 144 RBI (1950 Rookie of the Year, UConn guy, never came close to that season) SS Vern Stephens: .295/.361/.511, 30 HR, 144 RBI (Very underrated player; should have gotten more HOF consideration) 2B Bobby Doerr: .294/.367/.519, 27 HR, 120 RBI (last great season of HOF career, 1951 was final season) RF Al Zarilla: .325/.423/.493, 9 HR, 74 RBI (Another underrated player, this lineup is ridiculous) C Birdie Tebbets: .310/.377/.444, 8 HR, 45 RBI (Just 299 plate appearances, shared catching duties with Matt Batts) They even had Batts (.273 BA), Clyde Vollmer (.284 with 7 HR in 169 ABs), Tom Wright (.318), and 3rd string catcher Buddy Rosar hitting .298 in 84 ABs coming off the bench. That squad batted .302 as a team with a .385 OBP and a .464 SA. They only had 161 HRs, which was 2nd in the league, but they score 1027 runs, the team record. Only the 1999 Indians have cracked 1000 runs since. If you factor out the pitchers batting the slash line becomes .311/.394/.484. And if the DH existed and Williams hadn't got hurt in the all-star game cracking his elbow against the LF fence trying to make a catch and had gotten more ABs, that stat line would have been even more ridiculous. But the pitching was bad (4.88 ERA), as they only had 3 effective pitchers: Mel Parnell (18-10 3.61), Joe Dobson (15-10 4.18), and Ellis Kinder (14-12 4.26 ERA with 9 saves), and the team only finished in 3rd with their 94-60 record. They wouldn't be seriously competitive again until 1967.
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Post by voiceofreason on Oct 22, 2021 9:38:39 GMT -5
Benny 63 runs scored 73 rbis 766 OPS batting 2,3 in the order Renfroe 89.... 96... 816 OPS batting 6,7 Last I checked runs matter. If you were a GM who would have more trade value?Would you have rathered the Sox had Benny instead of Hunter this past season? Feel free to value runs and RBI all you want, but I doubt there's a GM in the game who even looks at those stats these days, for reasons that start with what manfred points out. Well then give me a line up that is so strong that my 6th or 7th batter has 89 31 96 stat line for 3 million and I will have a winning team every year. Take out the HRs counting twice and he accounted for 154 runs in the 6,7 hole. Yeah he is just an average player. Once again how many guys did that in the 6,7 hole? All done....
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Post by voiceofreason on Oct 22, 2021 9:43:46 GMT -5
That is who came to mind for me also. Jason Varitek batted .273 with 25 HRs and 85 RBIs batting out of the #9 hole in the 2003 lineup. Check out this ridiculous lineup with its triple crown category stats: Johnny Damon: .273 BA, 12 HR, 67 RBI (He'd have been seasons) Todd Walker: .283 BA, 13 HR, 85 RBI (strong post-season) Nomar Garciaparra: .301 BA, 28 HR, 105 RBI Manny Ramirez: .325, 37 HR, 104 RBI (2nd in batting average) David Ortiz: .288, 31 HR, 101 RBI (didn't become a regular until July!) Kevin Millar: .276, 25 HR, 96 RBI Trot Nixon: .307, 28 HR, 87 RBI Bill Mueller: .326, 19 HR, 85 RBI (league batting champ batting 8th!) Jason Varitek: .273, 25 HR, 85 RBI (don't get #9 hitters like that often) Nothing tops the 1950 Red Sox lineup though. That lineup didn't have a DH because the DH didn't come around until 1973, but they had 9 regulars. Ted Williams would have been a DH that year had the DH existed perhaps. He was injured in the all-star game so his numbers were merely ridiculous rather than otherworldly, and during his absence a utility guy named Billy Goodman got regular ABs, enough to qualify for the batting title he won with a .354 batting average. If the DH existed back then, picture this lineup, complete with slash line and triple crown stats: LF Billy Goodman: .354/.427/.455, 4 HR, 68 RBI (batting champ; utility man who got ABs in Williams' absence) SS Johnny Pesky: .312/.437/.388, 1 HR, 49 RBI (Mr Red Sox, but so few realize how much of an OBP machine he was) CF Dom DiMaggio: .328/.414/.452, 7 HR, 70 RBI (Like Pesky, HOF rates; career cut short and missed time due to WW2) DH Ted Williams: .317/.452/.647, 28 HR, 97 RBI (Injured in AS game; only 334 AB and 416 plate appearances) 1B Walt Dropo: .322/.378/.583, 34 HR, 144 RBI (1950 Rookie of the Year, UConn guy, never came close to that season) SS Vern Stephens: .295/.361/.511, 30 HR, 144 RBI (Very underrated player; should have gotten more HOF consideration) 2B Bobby Doerr: .294/.367/.519, 27 HR, 120 RBI (last great season of HOF career, 1951 was final season) RF Al Zarilla: .325/.423/.493, 9 HR, 74 RBI (Another underrated player, this lineup is ridiculous) C Birdie Tebbets: .310/.377/.444, 8 HR, 45 RBI (Just 299 plate appearances, shared catching duties with Matt Batts) They even had Batts (.273 BA), Clyde Vollmer (.284 with 7 HR in 169 ABs), Tom Wright (.318), and 3rd string catcher Buddy Rosar hitting .298 in 84 ABs coming off the bench. That squad batted .302 as a team with a .385 OBP and a .464 SA. They only had 161 HRs, which was 2nd in the league, but they score 1027 runs, the team record. Only the 1999 Indians have cracked 1000 runs since. If you factor out the pitchers batting the slash line becomes .311/.394/.484. And if the DH existed and Williams hadn't got hurt in the all-star game cracking his elbow against the LF fence trying to make a catch and had gotten more ABs, that stat line would have been even more ridiculous. But the pitching was bad (4.88 ERA) and the team only finished in 3rd with their 94-60 record. They wouldn't be seriously competitive again until 1967. Those are some ridiculous numbers to come in 3rd. That 03 team was something else. Losing to the Yankees was heartbreaking, remember it all too well.
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Post by incandenza on Oct 22, 2021 9:48:52 GMT -5
Feel free to value runs and RBI all you want, but I doubt there's a GM in the game who even looks at those stats these days, for reasons that start with what manfred points out. Well then give me a line up that is so strong that my 6th or 7th batter has 89 31 96 stat line for 3 million and I will have a winning team every year. Take out the HRs counting twice and he accounted for 154 runs in the 6,7 hole. Yeah he is just an average player. Once again how many guys did that in the 6,7 hole? All done.... I don't get the focus on his place in the batting order. That's obviously just a function of the other guys in the lineup. Why does that make Renfroe more valuable? Would he have been less valuable if Cora had batted him 4th?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 22, 2021 9:59:27 GMT -5
Just remember that the next two Houston starters are the ones the Red Sox destroyed in games 2 and 3.
We came in thinking this would be a closer series and McCullers missing it would be a potential difference-maker. We're about to see if that's how it plays out.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Oct 22, 2021 10:00:06 GMT -5
I would like to point out that whatever happens on Friday, the Sox have gone far above anybody's predictions...The Yankees are gone...The Rays are gone...The Astros have the upper hand, but the Sox are still there. No one had them getting even close to a World Series and we are spoiled because they are still in there fighting. Renfroe has disappeared in the playoffs, but he was one of the main reasons that they made the playoffs with outstanding throws from the outfield and clutch hitting throughout the season. It is disappointing that he hasn't contributed in the post season, but others are there to pick him up. I am very happy that they had a chance to get to the World Series at all. I am sure Bloom must be in awe of Cora's job of getting these players motivated throughout the season. Not only are the MFYs and Rays gone, we buried them. Doing the same to the Unrepentant Cheaters would be that much sweeter.
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Post by benzinger on Oct 22, 2021 10:18:53 GMT -5
Renfroe should never have been an everyday right fielder. Part of that is the Benintendi trade was dumb and didn’t work and thats not Renfroe’s fault. I’m happy with how the season went regardless of how it plays out but it will still be really tough wondering what if should the Braves upset the Dodgers. If that happens Ill just think we were one big hit in Game 4 from going up 3-1 and probably taking this series. You can quibble about the return Benintendi brought(because Franchy does look pretty terrible), but Benintendi is HARDLY the one that “got away”. They didn’t miss him at all this season. Then again, there are still people on this site that pine over JBJ and Mitch Moreland, so it isn’t overly surprising.
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Post by benzinger on Oct 22, 2021 10:27:28 GMT -5
Does Garcia really have any kind of knee issue, or was that completely fabricated. I guess we will see pretty early on tonight.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 22, 2021 10:38:06 GMT -5
Does Garcia really have any kind of knee issue, or was that completely fabricated. I guess we will see pretty early on tonight. He was miraculously cured.
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Post by Guidas on Oct 22, 2021 10:50:55 GMT -5
Does Garcia really have any kind of knee issue, or was that completely fabricated. I guess we will see pretty early on tonight. He was miraculously cured. Maybe the miracle cure is the same sticky hair gel Valdez used Wednesday.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 3,019
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Post by mobaz on Oct 22, 2021 11:19:50 GMT -5
Houston probably used the same spray that miraculously cures European soccer players from (based on their reactions) what must be torn ACLs when they get bumped a little.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Oct 22, 2021 12:50:49 GMT -5
Benny 63 runs scored 73 rbis 766 OPS batting 2,3 in the order Renfroe 89.... 96... 816 OPS batting 6,7 Last I checked runs matter. If you were a GM who would have more trade value? Would you have rathered the Sox had Benny instead of Hunter this past season? Totally agree Voice!! Add to your analysis that Beni made $6.3 million and Renfroe $3.1 million. The arbitration salaries for 2022 per mlbtraderumors is Beni $9.3 to Renfroe $7.6 million. Beni is a FA after 2022 whereas Renfroe afte 2023!!!!!!
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Post by voiceofreason on Oct 22, 2021 13:20:08 GMT -5
Benny 63 runs scored 73 rbis 766 OPS batting 2,3 in the order Renfroe 89.... 96... 816 OPS batting 6,7 Last I checked runs matter. If you were a GM who would have more trade value? Would you have rathered the Sox had Benny instead of Hunter this past season? Totally agree Voice!! Add to your analysis that Beni made $6.3 million and Renfroe $3.1 million. The arbitration salaries for 2022 per mlbtraderumors is Beni $9.3 to Renfroe $7.6 million. Beni is a FA after 2022 whereas Renfroe afte 2023!!!!!! Thanks Soxfan, I think I need to learn that sometimes here on SP guys will just not give up a debate regardless of the facts put in front of them. Then again everyone is entitled to an opinion and I should just state mine and leave it at that. We all get caught up once in a while. Hope the Sox win tonight and I think they will, the way this season has gone a game 7 would be fitting.
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Post by tizzle on Oct 22, 2021 13:24:51 GMT -5
One way to look at it is it seems to me like the team that has "needed" a W more has won every game so far.
Game 1- Houston needs to win game 1 to hold home field advantage Game 2- Sox need a split in Houston Game 3- Sox need to hold serve on their own home turf Game 4- Houston needs to even series Game 5- Houston needs a W with Eovaldi lurking and their only good SP going Game 6- Sox need a W to stay alive......
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Post by greenmonster on Oct 22, 2021 13:35:20 GMT -5
Here is some Framber video
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Oct 22, 2021 13:59:22 GMT -5
Jason Varitek batted .273 with 25 HRs and 85 RBIs batting out of the #9 hole in the 2003 lineup. Check out this ridiculous lineup with its triple crown category stats: Johnny Damon: .273 BA, 12 HR, 67 RBI (He'd have been seasons) Todd Walker: .283 BA, 13 HR, 85 RBI (strong post-season) Nomar Garciaparra: .301 BA, 28 HR, 105 RBI Manny Ramirez: .325, 37 HR, 104 RBI (2nd in batting average) David Ortiz: .288, 31 HR, 101 RBI (didn't become a regular until July!) Kevin Millar: .276, 25 HR, 96 RBI Trot Nixon: .307, 28 HR, 87 RBI Bill Mueller: .326, 19 HR, 85 RBI (league batting champ batting 8th!) Jason Varitek: .273, 25 HR, 85 RBI (don't get #9 hitters like that often) Nothing tops the 1950 Red Sox lineup though. That lineup didn't have a DH because the DH didn't come around until 1973, but they had 9 regulars. Ted Williams would have been a DH that year had the DH existed perhaps. He was injured in the all-star game so his numbers were merely ridiculous rather than otherworldly, and during his absence a utility guy named Billy Goodman got regular ABs, enough to qualify for the batting title he won with a .354 batting average. If the DH existed back then, picture this lineup, complete with slash line and triple crown stats: LF Billy Goodman: .354/.427/.455, 4 HR, 68 RBI (batting champ; utility man who got ABs in Williams' absence) SS Johnny Pesky: .312/.437/.388, 1 HR, 49 RBI (Mr Red Sox, but so few realize how much of an OBP machine he was) CF Dom DiMaggio: .328/.414/.452, 7 HR, 70 RBI (Like Pesky, HOF rates; career cut short and missed time due to WW2) DH Ted Williams: .317/.452/.647, 28 HR, 97 RBI (Injured in AS game; only 334 AB and 416 plate appearances) 1B Walt Dropo: .322/.378/.583, 34 HR, 144 RBI (1950 Rookie of the Year, UConn guy, never came close to that season) SS Vern Stephens: .295/.361/.511, 30 HR, 144 RBI (Very underrated player; should have gotten more HOF consideration) 2B Bobby Doerr: .294/.367/.519, 27 HR, 120 RBI (last great season of HOF career, 1951 was final season) RF Al Zarilla: .325/.423/.493, 9 HR, 74 RBI (Another underrated player, this lineup is ridiculous) C Birdie Tebbets: .310/.377/.444, 8 HR, 45 RBI (Just 299 plate appearances, shared catching duties with Matt Batts) They even had Batts (.273 BA), Clyde Vollmer (.284 with 7 HR in 169 ABs), Tom Wright (.318), and 3rd string catcher Buddy Rosar hitting .298 in 84 ABs coming off the bench. That squad batted .302 as a team with a .385 OBP and a .464 SA. They only had 161 HRs, which was 2nd in the league, but they score 1027 runs, the team record. Only the 1999 Indians have cracked 1000 runs since. If you factor out the pitchers batting the slash line becomes .311/.394/.484. And if the DH existed and Williams hadn't got hurt in the all-star game cracking his elbow against the LF fence trying to make a catch and had gotten more ABs, that stat line would have been even more ridiculous. But the pitching was bad (4.88 ERA) and the team only finished in 3rd with their 94-60 record. They wouldn't be seriously competitive again until 1967. Those are some ridiculous numbers to come in 3rd. That 03 team was something else. Losing to the Yankees was heartbreaking, remember it all too well. That 03!team went to NY down 3-2. Pounded the crap out of Pettitte and Clemens. Only to have Grady Little freeze in the moment. Will never forget Pedro getting hugs in the dugout after 7. Up 5-2. Got taken out all year in situations like that.
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Post by scottysmalls on Oct 22, 2021 14:20:16 GMT -5
Totally agree Voice!! Add to your analysis that Beni made $6.3 million and Renfroe $3.1 million. The arbitration salaries for 2022 per mlbtraderumors is Beni $9.3 to Renfroe $7.6 million. Beni is a FA after 2022 whereas Renfroe afte 2023!!!!!! Thanks Soxfan, I think I need to learn that sometimes here on SP guys will just not give up a debate regardless of the facts put in front of them. Then again everyone is entitled to an opinion and I should just state mine and leave it at that. We all get caught up once in a while. Hope the Sox win tonight and I think they will, the way this season has gone a game 7 would be fitting. This is a pretty disingenuous statement when the people debating you are clearly also arguing with facts, you just think the facts you are citing are more important.
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Post by Guidas on Oct 22, 2021 14:26:05 GMT -5
Here is some Framber video I saw him going to the temple, too, and thought it was sketchy. My question: What if Cora saw this after, say, two outs in an inning? Framber gets tossed, sure, but do they start that half-inning all over with a new pitcher and no outs or the whole game? Or is it a straight-up forfeit by Houston? My guess is nothing more than the ejection of the pitcher, but I don't know.
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Post by julyanmorley on Oct 22, 2021 14:37:32 GMT -5
If the pitcher gets caught, they get ejected, get a ten game suspension and that's it. The rule book doesn't really have enough bite to prevent someone from trying a sticky cheating scheme with the season on the line in the LCS. Maybe the possibility of national humiliation is enough to prevent people from trying, it's hard to say.
That said, the Framber evidence looks pretty flimsy to me.
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Post by manfred on Oct 22, 2021 15:00:57 GMT -5
I would like a win today, svp.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,682
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Post by cdj on Oct 22, 2021 15:12:22 GMT -5
Arroyo-Renfroe-Plawecki 7-8-9 tonight
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Post by saltalamacchia4mvp on Oct 22, 2021 15:30:54 GMT -5
Arroyo-Renfroe-Plawecki 7-8-9 tonight Murderers row
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