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Boston Celtics 2021-2022 Season
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 3, 2021 19:44:58 GMT -5
Much better defense this quarter.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 3, 2021 19:58:50 GMT -5
Stop. Playing. Horford. And. Timelord. Together. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD IME Horford and Rob Williams have a plus 13.7 net rating when playing together. It’s the best non Grant Williams 2 man lineup on the team for what it’s worth.
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Nov 3, 2021 20:06:38 GMT -5
The continued lack of bench playing time is outrageous. I’m generally not a fan of the front office micromanaging coaching, but it’s clear Ime has no clue what he’s doing so far.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 3, 2021 20:36:42 GMT -5
Stop. Playing. Horford. And. Timelord. Together. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD IME Horford and Rob Williams have a plus 13.7 net rating when playing together. It’s the best non Grant Williams 2 man lineup on the team for what it’s worth. Where do you get that? NBA.com has them 9th, Brown and Williams #1 before this game, it hasn't been updated yet.
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 3, 2021 20:57:04 GMT -5
The continued lack of bench playing time is outrageous. I’m generally not a fan of the front office micromanaging coaching, but it’s clear Ime has no clue what he’s doing so far. The minutes aren't bad. He could (and should) save Al and Timelord some time by playing Nesmith AT ALL, but I don't think the rotation is hopeless.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Nov 4, 2021 0:29:59 GMT -5
I just don’t think they are very good. Tonight‘s win did not convince me otherwise. It was more of the same, they just defended a little bit better against a really bad team
Another shot-heavy, assist-deficient game from the 2 stars
Horford is blocking a ton of shots this year so that’s a weird and neat development I guess. He’s also by far their best facilitator. Like it’s not close, the offense moves so much better with him making decisions. I’d start him at the 5 and give Timelord 25 min off the bench and let him run pick n roll with Schroder all day with the 2nd unit. Not that Timelord doesn’t deserve to start- he is very obviously a good NBA player- I just think Horford needs to basically run point with that first unit to get them to stop having the ball stick. Timelord is a slick passer too but he’s not necessarily a guy you can run the offense through. If you look at the 5 man lineups they almost all play better when one of Horford/Timelord is at the 5 and Grant Williams is at the 4. Like those two guys in a vacuum are fine, the problem is playing them together pretty much puts most of the lineup in a spot that isn’t ideal for them (you’re playing one of them at the 4, Tatum at the 3, and Brown at the 2….I prefer Tatum at the 4 and Brown at the 3)
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 4, 2021 5:15:14 GMT -5
Horford and Rob Williams have a plus 13.7 net rating when playing together. It’s the best non Grant Williams 2 man lineup on the team for what it’s worth. Where do you get that? NBA.com has them 9th, Brown and Williams #1 before this game, it hasn't been updated yet. I put a minutes minimum on it to sort out all lineups that have barely played. It’s still a plus 13.7.
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ianrs
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Posts: 2,451
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Post by ianrs on Nov 4, 2021 11:23:03 GMT -5
I think this team is still much better than last year's team and Ime will eventually figure it out. I do think Nesmith should get more PT, at least 20 mins a game as a sparkplug.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 4, 2021 11:46:13 GMT -5
Where do you get that? NBA.com has them 9th, Brown and Williams #1 before this game, it hasn't been updated yet. I put a minutes minimum on it to sort out all lineups that have barely played. It’s still a plus 13.7. What is plus 13.7? They are plus 23 total on the year, 8th on the team now after last night's blowout win. They are plus 4.6 per game. Yet that pairing is 25th on the team in minutes totaling 56 minutes together or 11.1 minutes per game. The top pairing has 198 minutes together. Which seems to fit Ime pattern of only playing them together to start each half for 5-6 minutes. Which just shows you the issues, if that's a great pairing why isn't he playing them more together? It's the effect of starting each game without your best lineup to help Tatum and Brown, then the effect on the rotation after that. It's about matching up correctly to the other teams. Playing your bigs more minutes than you should and Tatum not playing PF. What have you seen that makes you think that’s a good pairing in today's NBA?
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 4, 2021 12:26:54 GMT -5
When the Nets hired Steve Nash, they also brought in Mike D'Antoni and Ime. A former darn good coach and a top assistant. I don't know if this is on Ime or Stevens, yet they should have brought in a guy with NBA head coaching experience or at minimum a guy seen as a top assistant to help him.
I always thought that was one of Brads issues, not bringing in top assistant coaches to mix things up. That was a big part of what Doc did.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 4, 2021 13:32:02 GMT -5
As of last night Rob Williams and Al Horfords net rating when playing together was 13.7. After last night it’s 19.7. This isn’t that hard.
You’re making something out of nothing. I simply showed the numbers to counter the narrative that the double big lineup has been a disaster this year. It hasn’t. In fact, it’s worked. I’m not advocating to play it more together.
Add: sometimes (often times?) lineups work because they aren’t over exposed.
Also, there can be reasons why you don’t want to play guys together like how it affects your other lineup options.
But to say the Al and Rob combo hasn’t worked while on the court together is a false narrative.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 4, 2021 16:02:10 GMT -5
Net ratings of the Celtics team 103.7 107.4 -3.6, last year 113.1 111.8 plus 1.2, using NBA.com, Basketball Refrence has 105.2 107.4 -3.3 and 114.0 112.5 plus 1.5. So there similar, just slightly different.
Last year using Basketball Refrence stats offense was 10th, D was 14th for 13th best net rating, its 21st, 19th and the net rating is 24th this year.
Robert Williams and Horford rating in limited minutes is 106.8 87.2 for yes 19.7. Based on the players rating Robert Williams is helping Horford offense and Horford is help Williams D. Makes sense give what we've seen. All those easy buckets for Williams and Horford playing out of his mind on D.
Yet the net effect on the team and other players matters no? You play five players at a time. Every player but Grant Williams has seen a decrease in their offensive rating. His numbers keep going down after his crazy hot start, he'll likely be worse in a few games. Brown went from 113.5 to 107.4, Tatum 114.8 to 102.8, Smart 114.2 to 106.4, Schroder 110.8 to 102.7, Richardson 113.5 to 98.4, Pritchard 111.2 to 93.1.
This teams biggest issue is offense and it all starts with his starting lineup. Along with what that does to rotations and minutes available for guys. He's hurting our offense and D. It's like I keep saying it needs to be all about helping Tatum and Brown. Tatum plays better as a PF, it gives him a quickness advantage he doesn't have at SF. His best WS/48, best defensive rating and best on court and on/off numbers are from 2020 when he played PF and even some center. It's just seems highlighted with the new rules changes this year. I thought we were past this crap after half a season of it last year.
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Nov 4, 2021 19:14:07 GMT -5
It would be nice if Tatum actually prepared himself in the offseason.
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cdj
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Posts: 15,859
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Post by cdj on Nov 4, 2021 19:42:23 GMT -5
Schroder needs to start at PG
Schroder-Smart-Brown-Tatum-Horford is what I would roll out to start games. That is an effective 5 man lineup. Then adjust depending on game flow. It’s not a knock on Timelord, I just think Horford is needed in that first unit to keep the ball moving and the shooting he provides. Not that Timelord isn’t a good passer either- he definitely is. I’d just pick my spots with him and get him 25 dominant, fresh minutes a night
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Post by jmei on Nov 4, 2021 21:28:14 GMT -5
Turns out that Aaron Nesmith can help this team. The defensive energy and crispness of rotations has been a nice sight over these last two games as well.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,859
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Post by cdj on Nov 4, 2021 21:35:02 GMT -5
Much better effort on D. THATS encouraging. Still a ton of work to be done on offense but if they want to turn themselves into a grinding team and develop an identity I’m in. I’ll root for a team that turns games into rock fights
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 4, 2021 23:38:26 GMT -5
6 quarters of really elite defense. Look at the personnel, the Celtics have all the tools to be a lockdown defense.
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ianrs
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Posts: 2,451
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Post by ianrs on Nov 5, 2021 2:54:21 GMT -5
Turns out that Aaron Nesmith can help this team. The defensive energy and crispness of rotations has been a nice sight over these last two games as well. Absolutely. Props to Ime for adjusting. Also, the difference between Horford and Thompson as our starting center and team leader is night and day , my word.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 5, 2021 5:24:03 GMT -5
Schroder needs to start at PG Schroder-Smart-Brown-Tatum-Horford is what I would roll out to start games. That is an effective 5 man lineup. Then adjust depending on game flow. It’s not a knock on Timelord, I just think Horford is needed in that first unit to keep the ball moving and the shooting he provides. Not that Timelord isn’t a good passer either- he definitely is. I’d just pick my spots with him and get him 25 dominant, fresh minutes a night Personally, I’d start this lineup: Schröder - Nesmith - Brown - Tatum - Williams Bring Smart, Pritchard, Richardson/Langford and Horford off the bench to play with Tatum/Brown And obviously mix in other guys like Grant Williams too. I see the argument for swapping Al and Rob in those lineups… Williams and Smart do have good chemistry, but I think Al fits the second unit better. I want Schöders penetration and passing in the lineup and I want Nesmith energy and shooting. You have to just let Nesmith go for a few games, give him minutes and take the ups and downs. See if you can get him in a groove. This team desperately needs a 3rd scorer/shooter who can be consistent and he’s the only guy on the team who can possibly be that dude. Ride or die.
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ianrs
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Post by ianrs on Nov 5, 2021 7:34:42 GMT -5
That's an absolutely massive win on a back to back on the road. Nesmith and Romeo look like legitimate rotation wings, I love to see it.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 5, 2021 10:44:06 GMT -5
I certainly enjoy the wins, playing hard and good D. Yet is anyone surprised? Last night who was your worst defender Nesmith? This team was built to be darn good on D. The difference between a guy like Schroder and Kemba Walker is massive. For me the issues were and have been all the way back to 2018 the offense.
At this point it's clear Ime message to Tatum is drive more, score more near the basket. Which I love, it's what Tatum needs to work on. Yet playing two bigs is clogging up the paint. It's why I have changed my mind, I'd start Horford and move Robert Williams to the bench. I'd also have him work on a ten foot jumper. He's so used to last years jump shooting team, he's just always waiting to get rebounds in the paint or going for dunks.
I'll give Ime credit for mixing things up, you actually had 5 bench players on the court for a few minutes anyway last night. I'm not a fan of playing Parker and Grant together. At least he's trying new things.
I absolutely love punking the Heat, them with Lowry just makes it so much sweeter. I just can't stand watching Bam and Lowry play crazy physical and complain like babies about fouls non stop. Bam trying to sneak in on the jump ball and trying to push Schroder away like he wasn't trying to cheat. Absolutely love Schroder not backing down. I love Schroder, he's not perfect by any mean. I just love the way he plays at PG.
Yet you need to fix your lineups to get your offense going. You can't play D at that level with that engery for too long. You won't get many games with three of your four top scorers were coming off the bench. Ime getting the D going was the easy part, now work on the offense. Still say Horford, Schroder, Tatum, Brown and frankly whoever you want that isn't a big. I'd still probably start Richardson because he's a veteran, yet I wouldn't complain about a lot of players. Yes in theory Nesmith would be perfect, yet he's last on my list till he shows consistency. He's also needed on the bench for his shooting if you aren't going to play Pritchard. Last night showed you a glimpse of what should happen a lot with this team. You should have a better bench than most teams. Ime just has to learn to use the bench and hopefully tonight was the first step.
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Post by texs31 on Nov 5, 2021 19:20:59 GMT -5
Brown is out tomorrow night and Richardson is questionable.
Let's see of Nesmith produces again.
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 5, 2021 21:26:23 GMT -5
Brown is out tomorrow night and Richardson is questionable. Let's see of Nesmith produces again. Third game in 4 nights tomorrow, on the road against a good team. It's the first game this season I won't be pissed off if they lose, but I'm hoping they surprise me!
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ianrs
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Post by ianrs on Nov 6, 2021 2:29:47 GMT -5
Brown is out tomorrow night and Richardson is questionable. Let's see of Nesmith produces again. Third game in 4 nights tomorrow, on the road against a good team. It's the first game this season I won't be pissed off if they lose, but I'm hoping they surprise me! I think we can win it if we just throw everything at Luka, since the rest of Dallas is simply bad. Would be a hell of a turnaround to be 500.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Nov 6, 2021 5:07:23 GMT -5
I think this team is still much better than last year's team and Ime will eventually figure it out. I do think Nesmith should get more PT, at least 20 mins a game as a sparkplug. Depth wise I think it's obvious we are better. I'd argue we are at least 10 to 12 deep for players who deserve solid rotation minutes. The one spot I think we might not be is the third piece behind the J's. Sure Walker was hurt and could not be depended upon when it mattered most. Trading him I think was the single biggest off-season move that was necessary. But, when he was healthy and the 2 J's were on the floor is when they were at their best. That said, the team has been madly inconsistent for quite a while now. There are alot of new parts and the new coach is going to tinker with the rotation for a while, most coaches do so with good reason. I like Nesmith too, and Langford, Schroder, Richardson, Pritchard (he appears buried right now) Williams and even Parker, that's a good bench right there. I'd even like to see a few become starters by the end of the season. I'd love to see what Schroder could do with the starters and move Smart to the second unit. I think we have enough interesting pieces that another trade seems certain before the years over? maybe even Smart.
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