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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jul 9, 2022 20:21:13 GMT -5
All due respect to everyone's data / opinions, but on this team, i am not dying on the JBJ defense is needed over Duran hill. Not even when in this game the Red Sox would be up 2-1? not even then. that is extremely short sighted.
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Post by notstarboard on Jul 9, 2022 20:21:34 GMT -5
No, they only don't believe in any value that JBJ gives the team. They would never admit something so stupid, though they don't act like they actually understand it when they think trading Renfroe was this huge mistake. That trade will depend on what Binelas becomes. In the short-term, the trade is a significant loss for the RS. Renfroe is on pace for >3 WAR. Jackie is on pace to match his disastrous 2021. The trade has already happened and should really only be evaluated based on the information available at the time. Prospects are inherently high variance. If you want to address a GM's deal-making based on outcomes when prospects are key features, the best you can really do is take a large sample size of many deals over multi-year time scales and see if the net outcome was positive or negative.
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Post by notstarboard on Jul 9, 2022 20:22:58 GMT -5
All due respect to everyone's data / opinions, but on this team, i am not dying on the JBJ defense is needed over Duran hill. It's not just that. It's that Duran is probably the worst outfielder out there and he's still in CF.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 9, 2022 20:23:48 GMT -5
Not even when in this game the Red Sox would be up 2-1? not even then. that is extremely short sighted. What is short sighted is not putting any value in defense, especially in CF/RF of Fenway. I thought we got beyond that when we had Victorino and Mookie in RF when they were both CFers. I really noticed when Verdugo and Renfroe were out there and so did the pitchers.
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Post by wildsox on Jul 9, 2022 20:24:15 GMT -5
This announcing is awful
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Post by julyanmorley on Jul 9, 2022 20:24:44 GMT -5
Still plenty of room on the cozy Rob Refsnyder bandwagon
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Post by manfred on Jul 9, 2022 20:26:12 GMT -5
So… in the past two days, guys have given up on Seabold (ranked as high as #7) and Duran (as high as #3).
Not a huge endorsement for the system.
I return to my proposal of trading guys for a major league starter.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,940
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jul 9, 2022 20:26:38 GMT -5
That trade will depend on what Binelas becomes. In the short-term, the trade is a significant loss for the RS. Renfroe is on pace for >3 WAR. Jackie is on pace to match his disastrous 2021. Renfroe has 1.0 fWAR. Not even close. He is bad defensively and the Red Sox need a CF in RF. Fair enough. I was citing B-Ref WAR, which is the one I tend to look at just by force of habit. But Jackie is -.5 if you want to go by Fangraphs. Nobody is saying Renfroe is Dewey Evans, but whether you choose FG or B-Ref, he is significantly better than JBJ. Like I said, if Binelas gives us some solid cost-controlled years, he could make up the difference in the long haul. But it's tough for some of us to watch a team with a $238M payroll roll out a lineup that is under replacement level at two positions.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jul 9, 2022 20:26:43 GMT -5
Yeah keeping a mediocre Renfroe wouldn’t have done much, we got some good prospects for him and sold high.
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Post by notstarboard on Jul 9, 2022 20:27:05 GMT -5
So… in the past two days, guys have given up on Seabold (ranked as high as #7) and Duran (as high as #3). Not a huge endorsement for the system. I return to my proposal of trading guys for a major league starter. How about Eovaldi, Sale, Paxton, Wacha, or Whitlock? I hear they'll be available soon for nothing
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Post by reasonabledoubt on Jul 9, 2022 20:27:07 GMT -5
He's not that young (he'll be 26 in a month) and he's been playing CF almost exclusively since he entered the system without any sort of progress whatsoever. He's a guy I'd flip if he's got value. I don't trust him long term. Terrible defense that isn't getting better and strikes out too much. That's the thing. It's like other teams forgot how to pitch Duran from last year. So in June he hit everything. Now in July teams have finally found their book on him and he's back to that guy who hasn't adjusted to what got him out last season. Can't handle very good pitching right now. And his instincts are bad. Arroyo and Dalbec would have caught that fly. I wish I was wrong.
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Post by soxfaninnj on Jul 9, 2022 20:27:42 GMT -5
.223 avg vs 2.23 era
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Post by manfred on Jul 9, 2022 20:28:18 GMT -5
So… in the past two days, guys have given up on Seabold (ranked as high as #7) and Duran (as high as #3). Not a huge endorsement for the system. I return to my proposal of trading guys for a major league starter. How about Eovaldi, Sale, Paxton, Wacha, or Whitlock? I hear they'll be available soon for nothing I don’t know that Paxton will be ready soon. Whitlock will be in the pen. Sale is a huge question. Add: Anyway, my point is that every time I suggest they trade prospects, I get calked Dombrowski. Then those prospects stumble and people say they suck. Well, then get something when you can.
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Post by soxfaninnj on Jul 9, 2022 20:28:41 GMT -5
If this is the World Series team fox is in a lot of trouble
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jul 9, 2022 20:28:57 GMT -5
JBJ is one of the best outfielders I have ever seen. Duran is not even close. There is gonna be a lot of bias against Duran because of his struggles thus far in his career.
My point is that Duran is going to have more opportunities to impact games offensively vis a vis JBJ, then JBJ is going to have opportunities defensively vis a Vis Duran.
We need offense on this team and JBJ can't provide it.
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Post by julyanmorley on Jul 9, 2022 20:30:00 GMT -5
Of all the guys to give a retirement sinecure to, AJ Pierieaiodsnzki was only known for being hated when he played and also he sucks as an announcer.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 9, 2022 20:30:25 GMT -5
Renfroe has 1.0 fWAR. Not even close. He is bad defensively and the Red Sox need a CF in RF. Fair enough. I was citing B-Ref WAR, which is the one I tend to look at just by force of habit. But Jackie is -.5 if you want to go by Fangraphs. Nobody is saying Renfroe is Dewey Evans, but whether you choose FG or B-Ref, he is significantly better than JBJ. Like I said, if Binelas gives us some solid cost-controlled years, he could make up the difference in the long haul. But it's tough for some of us to watch a team with a $238M payroll roll out a lineup that is under replacement level at two positions. I'm telling you that defensive WAR calculations do not adjust for Fenway. RFers while playing at Fenway deserve to be judged as CFers if not higher. I'm not saying that there is no debate, I'm just pissed that no one values JBJ's defense nearly enough, including WAR.
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Post by julyanmorley on Jul 9, 2022 20:31:03 GMT -5
The Duran hate is getting a little much
His at bats against RHP not named Gerrit Cole have been top shelf this season
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 9, 2022 20:31:27 GMT -5
How about Eovaldi, Sale, Paxton, Wacha, or Whitlock? I hear they'll be available soon for nothing I don’t know that Paxton will be ready soon. Whitlock will be in the pen. Sale is a huge question. Add: Anyway, my point is that every time I suggest they trade prospects, I get calked Dombrowski. Then those prospects stumble and people say they suck. Well, then get something when you can. Then some prospects become All Stars.
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Post by julyanmorley on Jul 9, 2022 20:32:37 GMT -5
Tampa and Minnesota lost
Blue Jays and Mariners are playing each other
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,650
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Post by cdj on Jul 9, 2022 20:33:23 GMT -5
So… in the past two days, guys have given up on Seabold (ranked as high as #7) and Duran (as high as #3). Not a huge endorsement for the system. I return to my proposal of trading guys for a major league starter. I think that’s more of a reflection on the fan base than the talent.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 9, 2022 20:34:16 GMT -5
So… in the past two days, guys have given up on Seabold (ranked as high as #7) and Duran (as high as #3). Not a huge endorsement for the system. I return to my proposal of trading guys for a major league starter. I think that’s more of a reflection on the fan base than the talent. Kind of embarrassing that even has to be pointed out.
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Post by manfred on Jul 9, 2022 20:34:38 GMT -5
Fair enough. I was citing B-Ref WAR, which is the one I tend to look at just by force of habit. But Jackie is -.5 if you want to go by Fangraphs. Nobody is saying Renfroe is Dewey Evans, but whether you choose FG or B-Ref, he is significantly better than JBJ. Like I said, if Binelas gives us some solid cost-controlled years, he could make up the difference in the long haul. But it's tough for some of us to watch a team with a $238M payroll roll out a lineup that is under replacement level at two positions. I'm telling you that defensive WAR calculations do not adjust for Fenway. RFers while playing at Fenway deserve to be judged as CFers if not higher. I'm not saying that there is no debate, I'm just pissed that no one values JBJ's defense nearly enough, including WAR. Look, I love JBJ… he’s my favorite remaining Sox player. But when the Sox had an MVP in RF and a solid LF, his bat was irrelevant. With a badly weakened lineup, it is just really hard to play him… especially against a lefty. If they had a few guys hitting better, I’d say let him field and go 0-4. But this team needs anything it can get, especially with Raffy out, and Duran’s speed *could* change an inning.
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Post by notstarboard on Jul 9, 2022 20:36:16 GMT -5
How about Eovaldi, Sale, Paxton, Wacha, or Whitlock? I hear they'll be available soon for nothing I don’t know that Paxton will be ready soon. Whitlock will be in the pen. Sale is a huge question. There is no such thing as a sure thing. Is it really less risky to ship off prospects for another SP? All those guys I listed not even being available is a testament to that. Although if Chris Archer's available maybe it would be worth it.
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Post by manfred on Jul 9, 2022 20:37:03 GMT -5
I don’t know that Paxton will be ready soon. Whitlock will be in the pen. Sale is a huge question. There is no such thing as a sure thing. Is it really less risky to ship off prospects for another SP? All those guys I listed not even being available is a testament to that. Although if Chris Archer's available maybe it would be worth it. OK.. how about an OF who can hit AND field?
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