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Red Sox Sign Adam Duvall (1 Year/$7 million)
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jan 18, 2023 12:31:31 GMT -5
They've already shelled out hundreds of millions this year so "strict" seems to largely be a matter of perception. We all need to travel back in time, before the shift became a thing. This is going to be a very different game. Fly ball pitchers gain in value, that's if MLB's version of the baseball is in keeping with the stated desire to keep more of those in the ballpark. Groundball pitchers will have to deal with many more of those pitches finding gaps, so they'll lose some of their value. Feel free to critique this idea. It's my own understanding of what's gone down. I'm genuinely worried that it's going to look very strange and less watchable with the outsized bases, a pitch clock, and limits on throwing to hold runners. I can see a situation where so many games are decided by small ball at the end that it becomes maddening. Like others, I've found myself thinking that same thing. Not something we have any control over of course, and a very different game than the one we got used to. MLB seems to be groping for a way to return to the days of yesteryear. but the Lone Ranger isn't riding anymore.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 18, 2023 12:33:06 GMT -5
I'm not sure what's hard to follow. A CF has to move on a ball hit toward the leftfielder or the rightfielder. A rightfielder doesn't have to do much on a ball hit toward the leftfielder or vice versa. They have a lot less ground they need to cover and a lot less running they have to do. Have you never played in a baseball game or a softball game? The CF is moving all the time. They have to. First of all, really rude for no reason. The left fielder moves on every ball hit to center, on every ball hit to the third baseman, on every throw to third or second. I understand the center fielder runs more, but having played outfield in both positions I never noticed a difference on my legs and if there is one is it really so much that it should impact a pro athlete at the plate? Especially when it’s not like they’re going from sprinting to hitting, you get lots of breaks in baseball. I could totally be wrong and it affects him, but the sample size on Duvall’s centerfield numbers is way too small to make this assumption, which on the surface is dubious to me. The fact that other baseball guys have said it is interesting, but this to me needs to be proven rather than just accepted. Lots of big dudes play center without a drop off in performance (Judge, Trout to name the most obvious examples). I apologize. I didnt mean for it to come off sounding that way. When playing I've always seen the CF with far more responsibilities than the LF or RF although at Fenway, with all those strange angles in RF, the right fielder has a lot more responsibility than a typical RF, and as somebody else made a good point before, the RF does have to backup some throws that get past 1b. And now, if the stolen base stops being something of a lost art, the CF has to deal with more stolen base attempts as they have to guard more against errant throws into CF.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,951
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jan 18, 2023 12:34:03 GMT -5
All in all, this still feels like yet another step in the K Mart blue light special offseason. I'm thinking of it as the off-season of throwing spaghetti against the wall. But I can see where they're going. They're keeping the contracts to two years or even one year, except for Yoshida, who they must really like. They're biding their time until the 2024-'25 off-season when they'll be free of the Sale contract and the short-term contracts they're giving out this winter. I think they're also figuring the farm system will produce a couple of more core pieces by then. And who knows? Some of the spaghetti might work out like it did it 2021. Renfroe, KKH, Pivetta, Dugo and Arroyo all worked out nicely. But I understand that fans are less enthused about a team that seems slapped together, rather than one that contains more familiar faces that we can think of as "our guys." Not botching the Xander situation and keeping him at SS would have changed fans' outlook on the off-season, I think.
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Post by bosoxnation on Jan 18, 2023 12:37:02 GMT -5
7 million for a guy who’s 2 years removed from 38 homers and 113 RBIs and RSN still ain’t happy! There’s not much left in FA. That has this type of promise. We needed some more pop in the lineup and that’s what Duvall will bring and we don’t lose any prospects. Big Win!
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jan 18, 2023 12:39:40 GMT -5
If signing Duvall results in moving Refsnyder, I'm going to question the need for Chaim. Potentially losing a career journeyman in Refsynder is where you draw the line on if Chaim should be running the Sox or not? I don't think Duvall is going to mean Refsnyder is gone anyway but seems like a strange place to draw the line here. I was mostly responding to @oldfaithful's idea but it's the principle of tossing a guy who's much cheaper, a bit younger, with two years of control, projected to be better this season, and has much higher upside for an older player coming off an injury with a career OBP 45 pts lower. That's the antithesis of what's supposed to be Chaim's entire m.o., after all. If he ditches that to patch a leak on a .500-ish team, it smacks of desperation, which is also the antithesis of what Chaim is supposed to stand for.
As I've said, in the mess that we're already in, I'd much rather see what we've really got in guys like Refsnyder, Duran, Arroyo, and guys coming up like Valdez, Abreu and Hamilton than bring in some middling leftover retreads and still wind up out of the playoffs. This team is no better than 4th in their own division even before the bunting comes out and Adam Duvall or Elvis Andrus or Jose Iglesias are not going to change that.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jan 18, 2023 12:43:11 GMT -5
7 million for a guy who’s 2 years removed from 38 homers and 113 RBIs and RSN still ain’t happy! There’s not much left in FA. That has this type of promise. We needed some more pop in the lineup and that’s what Duvall will bring and we don’t lose any prospects. Big Win! 1979 called and they want their stats back...
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Post by soxstan96 on Jan 18, 2023 12:46:49 GMT -5
The more I think about it, the less I want them to move Verdugo. Yes playing Duvall as the (mostly) everyday CFer could be an issue, but I think Verdugo fits the middle of this lineup too well, and I'd bank on him having a better season than he did in 2022. According to his brother on Twitter, he was apparently battling an injury last year, and has started to slim down a bit this offseason. Should help improve his speed and agility in RF. If they can work out a trade for Kim without including Dugie in the package, I'd be all for that and we'd be looking at a lineup of:
Yoshida LF Hernandez 2B Devers 3B Turner DH Verdugo RF Duvall CF Casas 1B Kim SS McGuire/Wong C
Assuming they also add a #2 or #3 for the rotation, I think this team competes for a WC spot at least. Lots of good vibes, even with the Story injury. Naysayers feel free to prove me wrong.
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Post by bosoxnation on Jan 18, 2023 12:48:20 GMT -5
7 million for a guy who’s 2 years removed from 38 homers and 113 RBIs and RSN still ain’t happy! There’s not much left in FA. That has this type of promise. We needed some more pop in the lineup and that’s what Duvall will bring and we don’t lose any prospects. Big Win! 1979 called and they want their stats back... 🤣. You’re so miserable man. Go get yourself a box of tissues and let it all out.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jan 18, 2023 12:51:56 GMT -5
While still spending less than they did the year prior. We still have about a month before pitchers and catchers report and still at least one hole in the MI that they are almost assured to fill since I'm not buying that Hernandez is going to be the everyday SS. They're going to be give or take about 5 million less in payroll than they were last year on opening day from what I can tell. Not really sure what you expected, seems likely to me that they want to stay under the luxury tax so yes they were pretty likely to be spending less than they did the prior year either way. Now that Devers is extended, I can live with a reset year, but was honestly hoping for a Henry being angry and blowing up the payroll kind of off-season. I find the whole luxury tax thing to be extremely overblown, but I get resetting it every once in a while. It's just infuriating they didn't do it last deadline.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 18, 2023 12:53:39 GMT -5
Well, I was hoping for Mitch Haniger and would have been cool with Renfroe coming back but at this point I'll take Duvall and hope for the best.
I have to imagine the next move is a SS. If it's all about defense then they sign Simmons. I'd have to think Andrus would be the guy though?
Maybe they go with Duvall in CF to start and hope Rafaela rakes in AAA and forces his way up midseason?
I'm not sure where Bloom goes from here, but I can't imagine they're done.
It's funny. Had they extended Bogaerts in addition to Devers and had cut enough bait last July like JDM and/or Eovaldi and had gotten themselves under the luxury tax limit so that they could be over this year and they would have made the same moves otherwise, I would have been fine with Bloom's moves. I would prefer Eovaldi to Kluber, but I would have been fine with Turner and I liked getting Yoshida and was ok with them grabbing Jansen and Martin although I still want them to grab a lefty for the pen like Will Smith or Chafin or even Britton.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jan 18, 2023 12:55:13 GMT -5
We still have about a month before pitchers and catchers report and still at least one hole in the MI that they are almost assured to fill since I'm not buying that Hernandez is going to be the everyday SS. They're going to be give or take about 5 million less in payroll than they were last year on opening day from what I can tell. Not really sure what you expected, seems likely to me that they want to stay under the luxury tax so yes they were pretty likely to be spending less than they did the prior year either way. Now that Devers is extended, I can live with a reset year, but was honestly hoping for a Henry being angry and blowing up the payroll kind of off-season. I find the whole luxury tax thing to be extremely overblown, but I get resetting it every once in a while. It's just infuriating they didn't do it last deadline. Even if they had reset the luxury tax at the deadline I'm not sure they would have spent so differently now. It still might make sense to stay under this year anyways and push the 3 year luxury tax window off. On the other hand I could see them going over again this year and dipping under next off-season. Either way I don't know that the deadline changed much there.
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Post by manfred on Jan 18, 2023 13:05:46 GMT -5
As I wrote above, I’m fine with this at this point. But for the pollyanas who are now saying the OF is good or look at 2021 or whatever…. where was the clamor for Duvall a month ago? Who said this was a great pickup at the start of the off season. Let’s not confuse making the best of a bad situation with flat-out good.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jan 18, 2023 13:10:06 GMT -5
Now that Devers is extended, I can live with a reset year, but was honestly hoping for a Henry being angry and blowing up the payroll kind of off-season. I find the whole luxury tax thing to be extremely overblown, but I get resetting it every once in a while. It's just infuriating they didn't do it last deadline. Even if they had reset the luxury tax at the deadline I'm not sure they would have spent so differently now. It still might make sense to stay under this year anyways and push the 3 year luxury tax window off. On the other hand I could see them going over again this year and dipping under next off-season. Either way I don't know that the deadline changed much there. Maybe not, but looking at the next two years of free agency seems to be rather barren. I feel like if you were going to spend, this was the year to do it (unless you're getting Ohtani). If it was reset at the deadline I'd be very curious as to the excuse for being under 2 years in a row. My larger point though was that despite all this money spent, it's still less (albeit slightly) less than the total from the year prior and they got there by signing essentially an expensive prospect, retaining their own player in a unique position that doesn't really start until next year and a bunch of retreads. As of January I'm unimpressed. I was also unimpressed in January 2013 too.
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Post by soxstan96 on Jan 18, 2023 13:15:42 GMT -5
Also I think people are forgetting that Duvall will essentially act as a fill-in bat for Story until he comes back. They have fairly similar offensive metrics. I think if Story is somehow back before the deadline, there's a good chance Duvall gets traded.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jan 18, 2023 13:17:05 GMT -5
As I wrote above, I’m fine with this at this point. But for the pollyanas who are now saying the OF is good or look at 2021 or whatever…. where was the clamor for Duvall a month ago? Who said this was a great pickup at the start of the off season. Let’s not confuse making the best of a bad situation with flat-out good. Let's also not make a straw man argument. No one said it was going to be as good as 2021. The clamor for Duvall wasn't there because Story was still on the expected opening day roster (and actually I think "poor man's Story" is a pretty good way of looking at him). No one is doing the things you're saying, no one's doing a victory dance here, the signing makes sense now so people are content with it. What's the point in saying "yeah but things still suck"? Eeyore is no fun to have at parties.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jan 18, 2023 13:18:17 GMT -5
As I wrote above, I’m fine with this at this point. But for the pollyanas who are now saying the OF is good or look at 2021 or whatever…. where was the clamor for Duvall a month ago? Who said this was a great pickup at the start of the off season. Let’s not confuse making the best of a bad situation with flat-out good. I'm really liking this signing as a super 4OF. I have a lot of concern if he's the regular CFer. How much does the defense take a hit with Kiké - SS Arroyo - 2B Yoshida - LF Duvall - CF Verdugo - RF I really want to leave Kiké in CF. I would love if they tried Duran at 2B in ST.
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Post by incandenza on Jan 18, 2023 13:18:26 GMT -5
Potentially losing a career journeyman in Refsynder is where you draw the line on if Chaim should be running the Sox or not? I don't think Duvall is going to mean Refsnyder is gone anyway but seems like a strange place to draw the line here. I was mostly responding to @oldfaithful's idea but it's the principle of tossing a guy who's much cheaper, a bit younger, with two years of control, projected to be better this season, and has much higher upside for an older player coming off an injury with a career OBP 45 pts lower. That's the antithesis of what's supposed to be Chaim's entire m.o., after all. If he ditches that to patch a leak on a .500-ish team, it smacks of desperation, which is also the antithesis of what Chaim is supposed to stand for.
As I've said, in the mess that we're already in, I'd much rather see what we've really got in guys like Refsnyder, Duran, Arroyo, and guys coming up like Valdez, Abreu and Hamilton than bring in some middling leftover retreads and still wind up out of the playoffs. This team is no better than 4th in their own division even before the bunting comes out and Adam Duvall or Elvis Andrus or Jose Iglesias are not going to change that.
It's a bit funny to me that you think this totally unremarkable 1/7 deal for a veteran to help fill a clear need on the roster "smacks of desperation," whereas your approach would be to go into the season with Jarren Duran as the second baseman.
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Post by blizzards39 on Jan 18, 2023 13:21:51 GMT -5
We still have about a month before pitchers and catchers report and still at least one hole in the MI that they are almost assured to fill since I'm not buying that Hernandez is going to be the everyday SS. They're going to be give or take about 5 million less in payroll than they were last year on opening day from what I can tell. Not really sure what you expected, seems likely to me that they want to stay under the luxury tax so yes they were pretty likely to be spending less than they did the prior year either way. Now that Devers is extended, I can live with a reset year, but was honestly hoping for a Henry being angry and blowing up the payroll kind of off-season. I find the whole luxury tax thing to be extremely overblown, but I get resetting it every once in a while. It's just infuriating they didn't do it last deadline. Who cares about the LUX TaX. Unless you are the guy writing the pay heck’s it’s quite immaterial. I understand the strategies and all but it’s really all speculation and here say. Current ownership clearly has cash and are willing to spend. Saying that they sure do have issues with the big king deals. Can anybody really Blaim them. I love the Duval signing, but I don’t like him in CF. A couple more moves and the Sox just might be competitive.
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Post by manfred on Jan 18, 2023 13:25:06 GMT -5
As I wrote above, I’m fine with this at this point. But for the pollyanas who are now saying the OF is good or look at 2021 or whatever…. where was the clamor for Duvall a month ago? Who said this was a great pickup at the start of the off season. Let’s not confuse making the best of a bad situation with flat-out good. Let's also not make a straw man argument. No one said it was going to be as good as 2021. The clamor for Duvall wasn't there because Story was still on the expected opening day roster (and actually I think "poor man's Story" is a pretty good way of looking at him). No one is doing the things you're saying, no one's doing a victory dance here, the signing makes sense now so people are content with it. What's the point in saying "yeah but things still suck"? Eeyore is no fun to have at parties. My examples are actually from what people said — someone said taking 2021 numbers and granting Yoshida ~3 WAR etc. Calling realists Eeyore is cheap. Did you target Duvall a month ago? If he starts, are you satisfied? If he doesn’t start, well, then he has not really solved any problems. I don’t see how a team that already has Refsnyder on the bench spends $7 mill on a guy they don’t intend to start.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 18, 2023 13:26:53 GMT -5
You added a catcher for Depth, now Duval. You have to get an infielder, take your pick. Heck I'd like another starter. Yet at minimum he's added good depth at most positions. Yeah this isn’t some great team, yet good depth with legit major leaguers gives you a chance.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jan 18, 2023 13:28:46 GMT -5
Also I think people are forgetting that Duvall will essentially act as a fill-in bat for Story until he comes back. They have fairly similar offensive metrics. I think if Story is somehow back before the deadline, there's a good chance Duvall gets traded. I don't see one impacting the other unless they sign another IFer. Otherwise, Kiké stays in SS and Story replaces Arroyo or Arroyo's replacement because he's also hurt.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jan 18, 2023 13:30:28 GMT -5
Let's also not make a straw man argument. No one said it was going to be as good as 2021. The clamor for Duvall wasn't there because Story was still on the expected opening day roster (and actually I think "poor man's Story" is a pretty good way of looking at him). No one is doing the things you're saying, no one's doing a victory dance here, the signing makes sense now so people are content with it. What's the point in saying "yeah but things still suck"? Eeyore is no fun to have at parties. My examples are actually from what people said — someone said taking 2021 numbers and granting Yoshida ~3 WAR etc. Calling realists Eeyore is cheap. Did you target Duvall a month ago? If he starts, are you satisfied? If he doesn’t start, well, then he has not really solved any problems. I don’t see how a team that already has Refsnyder on the bench spends $7 mill on a guy they don’t intend to start. Full quote was “We're talking two guys over 30 coming off big injuries and Yoshida so generally I agree with your point, but hey, in 2021 (assuming 3 WAR for Yoshida) that would have been something like the 6th best outfield in baseball, so at least there's upside there.” which is … not at all saying they will be as good as they were in 2021. It’s obvious from the context that I was talking about upside not expectations and you know that. To your question, yeah I’m satisfied with him starting in centerfield. I think he’s roughly an average player. I wish Story stayed healthy instead, but they had to do something now.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jan 18, 2023 13:31:57 GMT -5
Let's also not make a straw man argument. No one said it was going to be as good as 2021. The clamor for Duvall wasn't there because Story was still on the expected opening day roster (and actually I think "poor man's Story" is a pretty good way of looking at him). No one is doing the things you're saying, no one's doing a victory dance here, the signing makes sense now so people are content with it. What's the point in saying "yeah but things still suck"? Eeyore is no fun to have at parties. My examples are actually from what people said — someone said taking 2021 numbers and granting Yoshida ~3 WAR etc. Calling realists Eeyore is cheap. Did you target Duvall a month ago? If he starts, are you satisfied? If he doesn’t start, well, then he has not really solved any problems. I don’t see how a team that already has Refsnyder on the bench spends $7 mill on a guy they don’t intend to start. Refsnyder I continue to forget exists.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 18, 2023 13:32:12 GMT -5
Let's also not make a straw man argument. No one said it was going to be as good as 2021. The clamor for Duvall wasn't there because Story was still on the expected opening day roster (and actually I think "poor man's Story" is a pretty good way of looking at him). No one is doing the things you're saying, no one's doing a victory dance here, the signing makes sense now so people are content with it. What's the point in saying "yeah but things still suck"? Eeyore is no fun to have at parties. My examples are actually from what people said — someone said taking 2021 numbers and granting Yoshida ~3 WAR etc. Calling realists Eeyore is cheap. Did you target Duvall a month ago? If he starts, are you satisfied? If he doesn’t start, well, then he has not really solved any problems. I don’t see how a team that already has Refsnyder on the bench spends $7 mill on a guy they don’t intend to start. Really? One year small sample size Refsnyder? A 4th OF plays more than people realize, add in our CF likely playing some 2B or SS. It's certainly not perfect type crap for building a true title contender. Yet it's a quality move.
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Post by soxstan96 on Jan 18, 2023 13:35:32 GMT -5
Also I think people are forgetting that Duvall will essentially act as a fill-in bat for Story until he comes back. They have fairly similar offensive metrics. I think if Story is somehow back before the deadline, there's a good chance Duvall gets traded. I don't see one impacting the other unless they sign another IFer. Otherwise, Kiké stays in SS and Story replaces Arroyo or Arroyo's replacement because he's also hurt. I'd be surprised if they don't add a SS. I'd love a trade for Kim, but could also see an addition of Andrus or (hopefully not) Iglesias. Hernandez to 2B until Story is back, at which point he'd move back to CF and Duvall becomes a little redundant unless he's willing to become a 4th OFer.
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