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2023 National Rankings (in season)
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Post by scottysmalls on Aug 22, 2023 10:29:29 GMT -5
Daisuke was a top end arm signed under Theo, to tie into the theme of this thread I'm pretty sure at the time BA named him the number one prospect in baseball. I miss the gyroball hype.
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Aug 22, 2023 10:46:39 GMT -5
Daisuke was a top end arm signed under Theo, to tie into the theme of this thread I'm pretty sure at the time BA named him the number one prospect in baseball. I miss the gyroball hype. Ok, but the OP said he built Chicago's farm/club by drafting bats and signing pitchers. Daisuke has nothing to do with that |
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Post by Guidas on Aug 22, 2023 11:46:29 GMT -5
Daisuke was a top end arm signed under Theo, to tie into the theme of this thread I'm pretty sure at the time BA named him the number one prospect in baseball. I miss the gyroball hype. Actually saw Daisuke strike out Barry Bonds with the bases loaded at Fenway in 2007 on, I believe, Father's Day. Later in the game Okijima struck Bonds out again with men on. Sox won the game. |
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 22, 2023 11:50:35 GMT -5
Wasn't Theo there when they gave Yu Darvish 6/$126? Or is the timeline messed up in my head? They also signed Lackey. He wasn't a frontline guy by then (if he ever was) but he was a mid-rotation veteran who they could afford because they had the young talent in the lineup.
Also, while they weren't necessarily free agent signings, he definitely traded for established rotation help: Hamels, Haren, etc.
Anyway, I think we're getting a little bit into the pedantry of "signed top pitchers." The Cubs under Epstein clearly developed their own bats and went out of the organization for arms.
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Aug 22, 2023 11:58:48 GMT -5
Wasn't Theo there when they gave Yu Darvish 6/$126? Or is the timeline messed up in my head? True, I was thinking more of their run up to the WS, 2018 was the beginning of the end for the Cubs and Theo. Darvish's 2018 was a bust too |
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Post by e on Aug 22, 2023 12:47:47 GMT -5
Wasn't Theo there when they gave Yu Darvish 6/$126? Or is the timeline messed up in my head? True, I was thinking more of their run up to the WS, 2018 was the beginning of the end for the Cubs and Theo. Darvish's 2018 was a bust too The 2016 Cubs rotation consisted of Lester, Arrieta, Hendricks, Lackey, and Hammels. Only homegrown(ish) guy was Hendricks who was an 8th round pick by Texas and traded to the Cubs in 2012. He wasn't on any top 100 lists and kind of came out of nowhere. Just sifting through baseball reference, the only successful homegrown starter that came up during Theo's time there was Hendricks. The rest of the rotation was filled out through trades and free agents. |
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Aug 22, 2023 13:07:00 GMT -5
Daisuke was a top end arm signed under Theo, to tie into the theme of this thread I'm pretty sure at the time BA named him the number one prospect in baseball. I miss the gyroball hype. Ok, but the OP said he built Chicago's farm/club by drafting bats and signing pitchers. Daisuke has nothing to do with that On the roster they did have Lester who they signed as a big arm. At the time he did also go after Anibal Sanchez who was coming off a good year, didn't sign him though. But they did sign Lackey for 2/32. Back in 2016 was a decent chunk of change. |
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Aug 22, 2023 13:07:57 GMT -5
Wasn't Theo there when they gave Yu Darvish 6/$126? Or is the timeline messed up in my head? True, I was thinking more of their run up to the WS, 2018 was the beginning of the end for the Cubs and Theo. Darvish's 2018 was a bust too Darvish was really odd. So you're right he was a bust but then went to San Diego and was pretty solid for a while. |
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Aug 22, 2023 13:08:53 GMT -5
Daisuke was a top end arm signed under Theo, to tie into the theme of this thread I'm pretty sure at the time BA named him the number one prospect in baseball. I miss the gyroball hype. Actually saw Daisuke strike out Barry Bonds with the bases loaded at Fenway in 2007 on, I believe, Father's Day. Later in the game Okijima struck Bonds out again with men on. Sox won the game. We went to the same series I think, I saw Bonds hit his first Fenway homer off Wakefield 😭 IIRC it was the only park he hadn’t homered in until then |
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Post by Guidas on Aug 30, 2023 10:08:55 GMT -5
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Post by vermontsox1 on Sept 13, 2023 7:51:39 GMT -5
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Post by Guidas on Sept 13, 2023 9:50:35 GMT -5
Speaking rankings, Keith Law going where most writers never go - writing a piece on four significant prospects where he turned out to be absolutely wrong. Not only does he fall on his sword admitting who he was wrong on, he explains where his evals fell short. It's subscription-only but the players he gives the public mea culpas to are: Shohei Ohtani - he believed in the arm but not the bat (at least, not enough to think two-way play was worth it). Justin Steele - he thought he'd be a fifth starter, with the a ceiling of a fourth. Kyle Bradish - was sure he couldn't repeat delivery successfully and was headed to the pen. Adolis Garcia - low OBP defensive OF with some pop, but not a regular beyond the defense. |
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Post by soxin8 on Sept 15, 2023 17:21:50 GMT -5
So, revised: MLB: 16
Fangraphs: 4
The Athletic/Law: 20
Baseball America: 5
ESPN/Kiley: 14Re-Revised (I thought I read on this site that Law had the Sox at 20 but 23 it is): The Athletic/Law: 23 Baseball America: 5 ESPN/Kiley: 14 Fangraphs/Longenhagen: 4 MLB: 16 Interesting that three of these are basically the opinion of one guy each, which is filtered through whatever prospects they've seen, plus video, plus what they've heard from scouts. It's all subjective, obviously, but if you prefer Kiley, or Law or Longenhagen (or Callis, who I understand does a lot of MLB's) or their methods, then you have your favored ranking. For example, both Law and MLB ding the Sox for lack of starting pitching prospects who project to be more than #5s, which seems to be a more "both sides of the system = balance" perspective. Fangraphs is a straight-up aggregate of their perceived future value, which may be more coldly reflective of seeing these players as "system assets" and "currency for trades," and also fits nicely with a fantasy baseball keeper league outlook. Personally, I read them all, but invest the most consideration for individual players to the reviews on this website. Keith Law didn't rerank the farms midyear like the other sites but he did briefly mention the Sox farm today in his Athletic article about Chaim. "The farm system has taken a sharp turn for the better this year, with a strong draft this July, a big step forward for Roman, and smaller breakouts or returns to form from other position players." That was one difference he had with Callis who on the podcast here only thought the Sox had an average draft because other teams had higher comp picks. Law named the Sox as having one of the four best drafts. He was less enthusiastic about the minor league pitchers this year saying he still didn't see anyone better than a number 5 starter. On July 21, he had Mayer at 3, Roman, Ceddanne, and Teel at 45,48,and 50 with Bonaci in his top 80. With what has happened since, I would think Mayer might drop some but with the next 3 all moving up. I would think he will have Boston somewhere in the top 15 in his next rankings. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 15, 2023 21:09:54 GMT -5
If we were to break it in half, we're somewhere near 1st for position players, somewhere near last for pitchers.
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pd
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Post by pd on Sept 16, 2023 12:38:00 GMT -5
If we were to break it in half, we're somewhere near 1st for position players, somewhere near last for pitchers. Roger's? Spot on. Hopefully a few of Gonzalez, Peralta, Monegro etc., take a leap. |
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Post by rickasadoorian on Sept 16, 2023 13:19:46 GMT -5
Re-Revised (I thought I read on this site that Law had the Sox at 20 but 23 it is): The Athletic/Law: 23 Baseball America: 5 ESPN/Kiley: 14 Fangraphs/Longenhagen: 4 MLB: 16 Interesting that three of these are basically the opinion of one guy each, which is filtered through whatever prospects they've seen, plus video, plus what they've heard from scouts. It's all subjective, obviously, but if you prefer Kiley, or Law or Longenhagen (or Callis, who I understand does a lot of MLB's) or their methods, then you have your favored ranking. For example, both Law and MLB ding the Sox for lack of starting pitching prospects who project to be more than #5s, which seems to be a more "both sides of the system = balance" perspective. Fangraphs is a straight-up aggregate of their perceived future value, which may be more coldly reflective of seeing these players as "system assets" and "currency for trades," and also fits nicely with a fantasy baseball keeper league outlook. Personally, I read them all, but invest the most consideration for individual players to the reviews on this website. On July 21, he had Mayer at 3, Roman, Ceddanne, and Teel at 45,48,and 50 with Bonaci in his top 80. With what has happened since, I would think Mayer might drop some but with the next 3 all moving up. I would think he will have Boston somewhere in the top 15 in his next rankings. 4 players in the top 50 and 5 in the top 80 should be a top 5 (at least top 10) system. The average team would have less than 2 players in the top 50, and less than 3 in the top 80. It really makes no sense it's top 15 instead of top 5/10. It seems very anti tinstapp. If they replaced Teel with a top 50 arm, is that the difference between top 5 and top 15? Seems odd to me. |
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Post by Guidas on Sept 16, 2023 14:33:26 GMT -5
Re-Revised (I thought I read on this site that Law had the Sox at 20 but 23 it is): The Athletic/Law: 23 Baseball America: 5 ESPN/Kiley: 14 Fangraphs/Longenhagen: 4 MLB: 16 Interesting that three of these are basically the opinion of one guy each, which is filtered through whatever prospects they've seen, plus video, plus what they've heard from scouts. It's all subjective, obviously, but if you prefer Kiley, or Law or Longenhagen (or Callis, who I understand does a lot of MLB's) or their methods, then you have your favored ranking. For example, both Law and MLB ding the Sox for lack of starting pitching prospects who project to be more than #5s, which seems to be a more "both sides of the system = balance" perspective. Fangraphs is a straight-up aggregate of their perceived future value, which may be more coldly reflective of seeing these players as "system assets" and "currency for trades," and also fits nicely with a fantasy baseball keeper league outlook. Personally, I read them all, but invest the most consideration for individual players to the reviews on this website. Keith Law didn't rerank the farms midyear like the other sites but he did briefly mention the Sox farm today in his Athletic article about Chaim. "The farm system has taken a sharp turn for the better this year, with a strong draft this July, a big step forward for Roman, and smaller breakouts or returns to form from other position players." That was one difference he had with Callis who on the podcast here only thought the Sox had an average draft because other teams had higher comp picks. Law named the Sox as having one of the four best drafts. He was less enthusiastic about the minor league pitchers this year saying he still didn't see anyone better than a number 5 starter. On July 21, he had Mayer at 3, Roman, Ceddanne, and Teel at 45,48,and 50 with Bonaci in his top 80. With what has happened since, I would think Mayer might drop some but with the next 3 all moving up. I would think he will have Boston somewhere in the top 15 in his next rankings. Yes - he mentioned this in his Athletic pod (Free) with Stephen Nesbit where he said he had Sox system in lower third at the beginning of the system but now saw them as middle of the pack or so. |
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Post by wcsoxfan on Oct 12, 2023 11:49:51 GMT -5
MLB.com released their minor league hitters and pitchers of the year for each organization. Red Sox (with org ranks) below:
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Oct 13, 2023 6:29:22 GMT -5
MLB.com released their minor league hitters and pitchers of the year for each organization. Red Sox (with org ranks) below: Abreu, no question, deserves that. He went from a JAG in the minors to a guy who might make it as a 3rd or 4th outfielder in the majors as long as he continues building on his success from this year. |
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ematz1423
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Post by ematz1423 on Oct 13, 2023 6:57:26 GMT -5
MLB.com released their minor league hitters and pitchers of the year for each organization. Red Sox (with org ranks) below: Abreu, no question, deserves that. He went from a JAG in the minors to a guy who might make it as a 3rd or 4th outfielder in the majors as long as he continues building on his success from this year. I don't know if this part is necessarily true, when the trade happened last year I remember a couple of reports saying that while Valdez looked like an alright piece that Abreu would prove to be the better piece acquired in the deal. I do think at the time he was seen as possibly a 4th OFer so I'd agree that he appeared to have raised his ceiling last year from potential 4 OFer to a potential strong side of a platoon which as a LHH would pretty much be a regular starter. |
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on Oct 14, 2023 17:02:39 GMT -5
Abreu, no question, deserves that. He went from a JAG in the minors to a guy who might make it as a 3rd or 4th outfielder in the majors as long as he continues building on his success from this year. I don't know if this part is necessarily true, when the trade happened last year I remember a couple of reports saying that while Valdez looked like an alright piece that Abreu would prove to be the better piece acquired in the deal. I do think at the time he was seen as possibly a 4th OFer so I'd agree that he appeared to have raised his ceiling last year from potential 4 OFer to a potential strong side of a platoon which as a LHH would pretty much be a regular starter. I guess we should all look forward to Abreu's Zips projection being updated. FG still lists his 2023 projection and has it as .221/.314/.358 with a .301 wOBA and .4 WAR. They had him improving on that a tiny bit in '24 and a tiny bit more in '25, but still at less than 1 WAR in '25. His time in the ML changed my thinking about Dugo from "Eh, I guess they should explore a trade this off-season, given what it would cost to sign him longterm" to "Trade Dugo, make room for Abreu and use the savings for SP." It was hard not to be encouraged by Abreu's performance. OTOH, look up Phil Plantier's 1991 season vs. his career. I'll save you the trouble. He mashed a 175 wRC+ in 174 PAs with 2.3 FG WAR as a 22 year old. He lasted until 1997 and compiled a big 3.1 WAR for his career. So, you never know. |
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Oct 17, 2023 20:19:53 GMT -5
Re-Revised (I thought I read on this site that Law had the Sox at 20 but 23 it is): The Athletic/Law: 23 Baseball America: 5 ESPN/Kiley: 14 Fangraphs/Longenhagen: 4 MLB: 16 Interesting that three of these are basically the opinion of one guy each, which is filtered through whatever prospects they've seen, plus video, plus what they've heard from scouts. It's all subjective, obviously, but if you prefer Kiley, or Law or Longenhagen (or Callis, who I understand does a lot of MLB's) or their methods, then you have your favored ranking. For example, both Law and MLB ding the Sox for lack of starting pitching prospects who project to be more than #5s, which seems to be a more "both sides of the system = balance" perspective. Fangraphs is a straight-up aggregate of their perceived future value, which may be more coldly reflective of seeing these players as "system assets" and "currency for trades," and also fits nicely with a fantasy baseball keeper league outlook. Personally, I read them all, but invest the most consideration for individual players to the reviews on this website. Keith Law didn't rerank the farms midyear like the other sites but he did briefly mention the Sox farm today in his Athletic article about Chaim. "The farm system has taken a sharp turn for the better this year, with a strong draft this July, a big step forward for Roman, and smaller breakouts or returns to form from other position players." That was one difference he had with Callis who on the podcast here only thought the Sox had an average draft because other teams had higher comp picks. Law named the Sox as having one of the four best drafts. He was less enthusiastic about the minor league pitchers this year saying he still didn't see anyone better than a number 5 starter. On July 21, he had Mayer at 3, Roman, Ceddanne, and Teel at 45,48,and 50 with Bonaci in his top 80. With what has happened since, I would think Mayer might drop some but with the next 3 all moving up. I would think he will have Boston somewhere in the top 15 in his next rankings. So the systems with the lower ranking seem very flawed by the measures you lay out. One of them even admitted they made no update during the year, what is the point then really when other relevant systems do ? Overall quality is where it's at whether or not you have a weakness at starting pitching or your 5th OF'er makes zero sense to me. The basis of their system is highly flawed I'd even go so far as to say child-like in the approach, again if it is based on what you say and I have no reason to doubt you. It's safe to say we have a top farm system that any relevant systems has us at #4 to about #12 and the truth is often some wherein between. I understand it's fluid and constantly changing and any number is more about a range at one point in time. |
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