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4/10-4/13 Red Sox @ Rays Series Thread
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Post by bosoxnation on Apr 11, 2023 0:55:41 GMT -5
Just wondering how the Tampa payroll compares to SD and the Red Sox? how many WS they win?
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Post by grandsalami on Apr 11, 2023 1:16:04 GMT -5
Just wondering how the Tampa payroll compares to SD and the Red Sox? how many WS they win? SD AND tb?
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Post by dirtywaterinla on Apr 11, 2023 1:23:11 GMT -5
Hey, bright side is that Duvall’s injury isn’t as bad as initially thought. Looks like he could only be out for 4-6 weeks. I'll never trust a player returning and hitting the same after Nomar Garciaparra's wrist injury. It pretty much ended the prime Nomar. No matter what the timetable is, I don't expect Duvall to hit the same all year. Pretty negative post, but swinging a bat is all starts at the wrists. I hear you, but the dude had a wrist injury last year and set the world on fire.
I do think there's a huge caveat here in that Duvall's production was never ever going to be sustainable. I think saying this is a huge blow to the offense is well...overblown. If Duvall were to stay healthy, I still think he would have regressed to his mean which is 25hr, .250 AVG, .300 OBP guy, ~2 WAR guy. It's success has and still hinges on Devers, Verdugo, Casas and Yoshida having breakout seasons which is asking A LOT.
I guess my hopes at this point is that this team can slap it together to stay around the .500 mark until June/July when you're hopefully getting a fully healthy Duvall and Story to make a big push at the tail end of the season.
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Post by bosoxnation on Apr 11, 2023 1:25:31 GMT -5
Exactly so why are we comparing again?
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Post by grandsalami on Apr 11, 2023 1:37:31 GMT -5
Exactly so why are we comparing again?
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Post by yuchangclan on Apr 11, 2023 3:18:32 GMT -5
I wrote a song called “You Can’t Play the Tigers All the Time”. I think you guys would really dig it.
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Post by jmei on Apr 11, 2023 5:01:15 GMT -5
It is pretty well established in modern investing that one way to maximize returns over a long time horizon is to hold a well-diversified basket of uncorrelated assets. You can draw a line based on that idea from the rise of modern portfolio theory in the 50s through to the current dominance of the pod shop hedge funds. Part and parcel of that philosophy is that you shouldn’t hold outsized concentrated positions, even if you believe in them strongly. Now, query how well that model applies to MLB team building (that’s a discussion for another thread), but that’s what I think intellectually underpins Bloom’s roster construction philosophy. That's fair and I get that, even though both modern investing and our GM would have you at a net loss over the last 3 years. Maybe my complaint is more specific in that I don't like Bloom's strategy and think that he's diversified too extensively. The pitching staff consists of Sale (who Bloom didn't sign) plus seven other starters who at least for this year roughly profile like #4 starters. The lineup consists of Devers (who I still argue they were nervous to sign/keep) and 8 players who roughly profile as #5-6 hitters. I'm over-generalizing and there are some caveats I could add, but the main point is that I would like a more defined core of players that the team is built around. IMO, the first 2 starters should be set in stone. 1-4 in the lineup should be too. I think you'd end up with a better W-L record and the fans would be happier too. Right, but those guys are really expensive (in trade or free agency), and if you don’t already have them on cost-controlled contracts, in a world with finite resources, it’s tough to acquire those guys and still fill out your roster (and not sacrifice future payroll flexibility and/or empty out the farm system). It’s fine to prefer a stars and scrubs roster, but that’s just not how Bloom is going to construct a team.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Apr 11, 2023 5:09:43 GMT -5
This team does have depth. Thats good. They also lack a lot in top end talent other than Devers. You have some guys like Casas, Bello, Sale, and Whitlock who could be top end, but for one reason or another its tough to project that. Duvall was perfect because of his ability to hit in Fenway and play all 3 outfield spots. The problem being is that you need more than one star on a team in order to contend. Rays might have guys we don't hear about daily but guys like Aroznerena, Glasnow, McClanahan, Franco are stars. The Sox have a long way to go to get to that point.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 11, 2023 7:00:23 GMT -5
They should have never got to "after" and signing Devers, IMO, was an act of self defense rather than something they truly wanted to do. I am genuinely curious, my comment is only 20% snark. Can't sign Bogaerts at $27M per year, but can sign Story and Yoshida at $37M per (or whichever combination of riskier contracts you'd prefer as an example). Mitigating risk in the last 3 years of Bogaert's contract by taking on short-term isn't fully computing. I guess I'm missing the logic of "Why suck in 2030 when we can suck right now?". It's like Bloom's the type of guy who won't buy a new car even though he has the money, but buys a "great deal" of a used car with 170,000 miles and gets pissed when it breaks down...and his remedy is to buy a second used car. Hey, I am an officer in the rebellion, but it is game 10, and they just lost their hottest player on a total freak. It is a bit early for autopsies. I'm not a medical expert, but the fact he just had surgery on that same wrist last year and is 34 turning 35 is it not likely that if someone like Casas or Duran landed similarly that they'd be less likely to fracture their wrist? I could be wrong about this, but feels like it's not completely a freak accident.
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Post by notstarboard on Apr 11, 2023 7:00:28 GMT -5
I guess Devers' 10-year extension did nothing whatsoever to silence this complaint?
I don't know what else they were supposed to do after Bogaerts (who they belatedly tried to sign to a long-term deal) got away and Story (who they did sign to a long-term deal) got hurt. They could have gone after Correa, I suppose, if you think that would have been an especially good risk to take on...
They should have never got to "after" and signing Devers, IMO, was an act of self defense rather than something they truly wanted to do. I am genuinely curious, my comment is only 20% snark. Can't sign Bogaerts at $27M per year, but can sign Story and Yoshida at $37M per (or whichever combination of riskier contracts you'd prefer as an example). Mitigating risk in the last 3 years of Bogaert's contract by taking on short-term risk isn't fully computing. I guess I'm missing the logic of "Why suck in 2030 when we can suck right now?". It's like Bloom's the type of guy who won't buy a new car even though he has the money, but buys a "great deal" of a used car with 170,000 miles and gets pissed when it breaks down...and his remedy is to buy a second used car. Yoshida is in his second week in the majors and Story is injured. Would you be making the same argument if Bogaerts were the one injured? The issue with the Bogaerts deal isn't the AAV. It's the length.
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Post by notstarboard on Apr 11, 2023 7:02:59 GMT -5
The offense is really worrying. Not sure it's going to be a strength this year. I mean I knew this going in We have only played ten games and we are fourth in the majors in runs.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 11, 2023 7:05:31 GMT -5
Cora can be very frustrating as a manager. I think he over values and loves the super utility guys way too much as a reflection of his playing career. Kiké and his 0.097 BA shouldn't be leading off. Kiké is a 4th OF or sporadic fill in on any other good team in this league. In general I detest the gravitational pull towards super utility players that is present in today's game. They only have value if they can provide value on both sides of the ball, and the Brock Holt's, Ben Zobrist's of the world are few and far between. You need a lot super utility players when you have a 49 million dollar payroll. Give me 8 guys who are adequate at one position and one guy who can bounce around when needed, but this utility stuff has gotten out of hand. You need one guy who can cover the OF and one guy who can cover the IF, if you're lucky you need one guy who can do both and then you can have a speedster for PR. It's a byproduct of the have nots putting together winning rosters, but it should be a bug, not a feature. I think Kiké is a little better than that, especially if he's in CF, but I do agree that on a really good team he's filling in for a different guy every night. I also agree that there shouldn't be more than 2 multi positional "gamers" on a team. I don't care if a guy can play 8 positions. Can he hit and field? They keep trying to turn Dalbec into one of these guys and he can't do either.
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Post by Addam603 on Apr 11, 2023 7:23:02 GMT -5
Kutter gets sent down to Worcester to make room for Whitlock and I don’t hate it. Keep him stretched out as a starter.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 11, 2023 7:49:52 GMT -5
Hey, bright side is that ry ?injury isn’t as bad as initially thought. Looks like he could only be out for 4-6 weeks. I'll never trust a player returning and hitting the same after Nomar Garciaparra's wrist injury. It pretty much ended the prime Nomar. No matter what the timetable is, I don't expect Duvall to hit the same all year. Pretty negative post, but swinging a bat is all starts at the wrists. So you are saying that post wrist injury, he won't be as good as he was post wrist injury ?
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 11, 2023 7:55:26 GMT -5
Sox Nation is gloomy and it doesn't help that they read the likes of Tomase. He seems to have a neurotic condition and should take a Xanax before sitting at the keyboard. Apparently, the Sox have no depth ... which is an insult to Refsnyder et al. Yeah, Sox could have signed Iglesias & JBJ and traded off some younger players. We've survived the past 24 hours. Tomase is a click bait troll. He's trying to catch CHB.
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Post by bluechip on Apr 11, 2023 8:01:51 GMT -5
It is pretty well established in modern investing that one way to maximize returns over a long time horizon is to hold a well-diversified basket of uncorrelated assets. You can draw a line based on that idea from the rise of modern portfolio theory in the 50s through to the current dominance of the pod shop hedge funds. Part and parcel of that philosophy is that you shouldn’t hold outsized concentrated positions, even if you believe in them strongly. Now, query how well that model applies to MLB team building (that’s a discussion for another thread), but that’s what I think intellectually underpins Bloom’s roster construction philosophy. That's fair and I get that, even though both modern investing and our GM would have you at a net loss over the last 3 years. Maybe my complaint is more specific in that I don't like Bloom's strategy and think that he's diversified too extensively. The pitching staff consists of Sale (who Bloom didn't sign) plus seven other starters who at least for this year roughly profile like #4 starters. The lineup consists of Devers (who I still argue they were nervous to sign/keep) and 8 players who roughly profile as #5-6 hitters. I'm over-generalizing and there are some caveats I could add, but the main point is that I would like a more defined core of players that the team is built around. IMO, the first 2 starters should be set in stone. 1-4 in the lineup should be too. I think you'd end up with a better W-L record and the fans would be happier too. Putting all the assets into superstars doesn’t work either. The Angles have Trout and Ohtani, the two best players of the last 15 years. They can’t win either.
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Post by incandenza on Apr 11, 2023 8:52:32 GMT -5
It is pretty well established in modern investing that one way to maximize returns over a long time horizon is to hold a well-diversified basket of uncorrelated assets. You can draw a line based on that idea from the rise of modern portfolio theory in the 50s through to the current dominance of the pod shop hedge funds. Part and parcel of that philosophy is that you shouldn’t hold outsized concentrated positions, even if you believe in them strongly. Now, query how well that model applies to MLB team building (that’s a discussion for another thread), but that’s what I think intellectually underpins Bloom’s roster construction philosophy. That's fair and I get that, even though both modern investing and our GM would have you at a net loss over the last 3 years. Maybe my complaint is more specific in that I don't like Bloom's strategy and think that he's diversified too extensively. The pitching staff consists of Sale (who Bloom didn't sign) plus seven other starters who at least for this year roughly profile like #4 starters. The lineup consists of Devers (who I still argue they were nervous to sign/keep) and 8 players who roughly profile as #5-6 hitters. I'm over-generalizing and there are some caveats I could add, but the main point is that I would like a more defined core of players that the team is built around. IMO, the first 2 starters should be set in stone. 1-4 in the lineup should be too. I think you'd end up with a better W-L record and the fans would be happier too. Not just this past offseason but the prior offseason, Bloom said extending Devers was one of their priorities. Furthermore, locking up a young player like that on a long contract (as opposed to a 30-year-old like Bogaerts) is a totally different sort of calculation, and one that fits with other public statements Bloom has made.
Why does this happen so frequently? Bloom says "we want to do X." Then Bloom does X. Then people say "yeah well in his heart of hearts he didn't really want to do X and he just did it because [hand-waving and mumbling]." I don't get it.
But then if you can't somehow write off the fact that they gave their cornerstone player a 10-year, $300 million+ contract, it does make it harder to argue that they're constitutionally unwilling to give $300 million contracts to cornerstone players.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Apr 11, 2023 8:58:16 GMT -5
Happy G.W. day!!!!
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Post by pappyman99 on Apr 11, 2023 9:29:38 GMT -5
Kiké is a 4th OF or sporadic fill in on any other good team in this league. In general I detest the gravitational pull towards super utility players that is present in today's game. They only have value if they can provide value on both sides of the ball, and the Brock Holt's, Ben Zobrist's of the world are few and far between. You need a lot super utility players when you have a 49 million dollar payroll. Give me 8 guys who are adequate at one position and one guy who can bounce around when needed, but this utility stuff has gotten out of hand. You need one guy who can cover the OF and one guy who can cover the IF, if you're lucky you need one guy who can do both and then you can have a speedster for PR. It's a byproduct of the have nots putting together winning rosters, but it should be a bug, not a feature. I think Kiké is a little better than that, especially if he's in CF, but I do agree that on a really good team he's filling in for a different guy every night. I also agree that there shouldn't be more than 2 multi positional "gamers" on a team. I don't care if a guy can play 8 positions. Can he hit and field? They keep trying to turn Dalbec into one of these guys and he can't do either. Eh I mean that’s ultra inflated from a putrid orioles staff / defense Wouldn’t hate a trade for reynolds and Story coming back at the all star break. Our right handed hitters are a huge problem and we knew that coming in
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Apr 11, 2023 9:33:30 GMT -5
They should have never got to "after" and signing Devers, IMO, was an act of self defense rather than something they truly wanted to do. I am genuinely curious, my comment is only 20% snark. Can't sign Bogaerts at $27M per year, but can sign Story and Yoshida at $37M per (or whichever combination of riskier contracts you'd prefer as an example). Mitigating risk in the last 3 years of Bogaert's contract by taking on short-term risk isn't fully computing. I guess I'm missing the logic of "Why suck in 2030 when we can suck right now?". It's like Bloom's the type of guy who won't buy a new car even though he has the money, but buys a "great deal" of a used car with 170,000 miles and gets pissed when it breaks down...and his remedy is to buy a second used car. Yoshida is in his second week in the majors and Story is injured. Would you be making the same argument if Bogaerts were the one injured? The issue with the Bogaerts deal isn't the AAV. It's the lengthbut you can't have the player without the FA cost and length of deal (which I think is the point of the post). That is what the market has determined. I am sure you would agree that the team would be better with X, even without the injuries to SS. We are losing the position battle with Hernandez manning the SS position to our opponents. That will show up in W-L record. And respectfully, X didn't really get injured. At least not like Story has, or Duvall, for that matter. Fine to chalk it up to good / bad luck, if someone was so inclined, but that is the data.
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Post by Guidas on Apr 11, 2023 9:38:47 GMT -5
That's fair and I get that, even though both modern investing and our GM would have you at a net loss over the last 3 years. Maybe my complaint is more specific in that I don't like Bloom's strategy and think that he's diversified too extensively. The pitching staff consists of Sale (who Bloom didn't sign) plus seven other starters who at least for this year roughly profile like #4 starters. The lineup consists of Devers (who I still argue they were nervous to sign/keep) and 8 players who roughly profile as #5-6 hitters. I'm over-generalizing and there are some caveats I could add, but the main point is that I would like a more defined core of players that the team is built around. IMO, the first 2 starters should be set in stone. 1-4 in the lineup should be too. I think you'd end up with a better W-L record and the fans would be happier too. Right, but those guys are really expensive (in trade or free agency), and if you don’t already have them on cost-controlled contracts, in a world with finite resources, it’s tough to acquire those guys and still fill out your roster (and not sacrifice future payroll flexibility and/or empty out the farm system). It’s fine to prefer a stars and scrubs roster, but that’s just not how Bloom is going to construct a team. I get this. But I also get the frustration, and have been among the mostly frustrated since 2020. There is no salary cap in baseball. A few other teams have traded assets, exceeded the tax, picked late in rounds or been excluded from the first round (and its money) all together and still made the playoffs consistently for more than a decade. We've all all commented how the failure of the Sale deal in particular seems to have brought an abrupt halt to part of this strategy. However, Bloom's results to date have been decidedly uneven with the lows (so far) outweighing the highs. This off-season offered the first time his front office could shake off almost all the previous contracts and build "his team." What took the field at the start of the season (like last year's team) is brittle and almost everything has to go right and everyone needs to stay healthy for long stretches of the season for it to succeed. It may still shake out in the positive. All a team needs to do is reach the playoffs. It's not the NBA where chalk almost always wins. It's baseball, which means the odds in the playoffs are a virtual coin-flip, and probably even more so with the added teams. Still, the approach seems odd for many fans. So people here refer to those fans as being "spoiled," and maybe we are. But when an ownership group spends nearly 20 years using its top-of-the-industry revenues to go for it year after year - and wins four World Series along the way - how do people expect fans across the spectrum to react when the owners abruptly change course and publicly declare their desire to win, but do so with outlays below the tax - all while still being one of the top revenue generators in the sport? Or better summed up by one of The Athletic's national baseball reporters, Britt Ghiroli, last week when she spoke about the Sox at length in her podcast with Saris and Van Riper. She said that other front offices have noticed the way the Sox are team-building and doing business the last three years and are really puzzled by the change in course. Or, as one GM who spoke under condition of anonymity said, "When did the Red Sox, one of the three to five highest revenue teams in the sport, suddenly become the Twins?" Anyway, still way to early to judge results for this year and the approach with the shackles of Dombrowski contracts (minus Sale) off. But if it looks like more of the same, say, come July, perhaps it will be time for Ownership to reevaluate this business model and pay the price (or bribe Manfred to let the Sox move to the AL Central).
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Post by Guidas on Apr 11, 2023 9:42:29 GMT -5
That's fair and I get that, even though both modern investing and our GM would have you at a net loss over the last 3 years. Maybe my complaint is more specific in that I don't like Bloom's strategy and think that he's diversified too extensively. The pitching staff consists of Sale (who Bloom didn't sign) plus seven other starters who at least for this year roughly profile like #4 starters. The lineup consists of Devers (who I still argue they were nervous to sign/keep) and 8 players who roughly profile as #5-6 hitters. I'm over-generalizing and there are some caveats I could add, but the main point is that I would like a more defined core of players that the team is built around. IMO, the first 2 starters should be set in stone. 1-4 in the lineup should be too. I think you'd end up with a better W-L record and the fans would be happier too. Not just this past offseason but the prior offseason, Bloom said extending Devers was one of their priorities. Furthermore, locking up a young player like that on a long contract (as opposed to a 30-year-old like Bogaerts) is a totally different sort of calculation, and one that fits with other public statements Bloom has made. Why does this happen so frequently? Bloom says "we want to do X." Then Bloom does X. Then people say "yeah well in his heart of hearts he didn't really want to do X and he just did it because [hand-waving and mumbling]." I don't get it. But then if you can't somehow write off the fact that they gave their cornerstone player a 10-year, $300 million+ contract, it does make it harder to argue that they're constitutionally unwilling to give $300 million contracts to cornerstone players.
Sure. But one guy is not a trend. And in the wake of losing Bogaerts (after losing HEWHOSHALLNOTBENAMED), whether true or not, it looked like it was as much a reactive, face-saving PR move as much as anything else. Perception equaling reality for all but the most analytical, which means the vast bulk of the revenue-generating fan base.
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Post by incandenza on Apr 11, 2023 9:57:08 GMT -5
Not just this past offseason but the prior offseason, Bloom said extending Devers was one of their priorities. Furthermore, locking up a young player like that on a long contract (as opposed to a 30-year-old like Bogaerts) is a totally different sort of calculation, and one that fits with other public statements Bloom has made. Why does this happen so frequently? Bloom says "we want to do X." Then Bloom does X. Then people say "yeah well in his heart of hearts he didn't really want to do X and he just did it because [hand-waving and mumbling]." I don't get it. But then if you can't somehow write off the fact that they gave their cornerstone player a 10-year, $300 million+ contract, it does make it harder to argue that they're constitutionally unwilling to give $300 million contracts to cornerstone players.
Sure. But one guy is not a trend. And in the wake of losing Bogaerts (after losing HEWHOSHALLNOTBENAMED), whether true or not, it looked like it was as much a reactive, face-saving PR move as much as anything else. Perception equaling reality for all but the most analytical, which means the vast bulk of the revenue-generating fan base. If you people interpret Bloom's actions as face-saving PR moves for no reason other than it fits your pre-existing narrative, and despite all of Bloom's own comments going back multiple seasons, then there is literally no way you will be satisfied by what they do.
Meanwhile, the Red Sox have one more $30 million players (1-0), one fewer $20-30 million players (2-3), and one fewer $10-20 million players (4-5) than your model organization, the Dodgers. They also went over the CBT literally last season. So I'm going to say that the answer to "When did the Red Sox become the Twins?" is "You're hallucinating."
100% of what's wrong with the organization right now is downstream of the fact that they bottomed out with a completely barren farm system in 2019. (Well, that and the fact that it's gone poorly with the $20-30 million guys they did sign.)
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Post by notstarboard on Apr 11, 2023 10:15:14 GMT -5
Yoshida is in his second week in the majors and Story is injured. Would you be making the same argument if Bogaerts were the one injured? The issue with the Bogaerts deal isn't the AAV. It's the lengthbut you can't have the player without the FA cost and length of deal (which I think is the point of the post). That is what the market has determined. I am sure you would agree that the team would be better with X, even without the injuries to SS. We are losing the position battle with Hernandez manning the SS position to our opponents. That will show up in W-L record. And respectfully, X didn't really get injured. At least not like Story has, or Duvall, for that matter. Fine to chalk it up to good / bad luck, if someone was so inclined, but that is the data. Right, but that's exactly why it was a good idea not to sign him. The Padres are going down with their boom and bust ship in a couple years and have proven willing to pay guys like 50% more than they're worth in the meantime because they don't care about albatross contracts when they already intend to be rebuilding. If we offered that exact contract we would certainly be better for the next few years, but at the expense of the 2028-2033 squads. In a town like Boston, you can't plan around an Baltimore-length rebuild. And so, you don't sign Bogaerts to that deal. By all means, offer him a 10 year extension at age 25 - the market has shown ample precedent for that as well - but don't let him hit free agency at age 30 and then sign him to an 11 year deal.
Neither Story nor Duvall has been injury prone in their career. Only one of their injuries - Story's elbow - was even a non-contact injury. It's hard to knock Duvall for hurting his wrist diving for a ball or Story for getting hit in the hand with a pitch, since that could happen to anyone no matter how well their body is put together.
The "positional battle" doesn't matter much in a vacuum; there are 26 guys on the roster, and you just need to have a better team overall. So, the issue is less that we don't have a more elite SS and more that half of the starting lineup (Hernandez, Turner, Casas, Arroyo) is not hitting anywhere near their potential, which has magnified the importance of losing Duvall. 60% of our rotation (well, now 40%; welcome back Whitlock!) being injured to start the year has hurt a lot too.
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shagworthy
Veteran
My neckbeard game is on point.
Posts: 1,845
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Post by shagworthy on Apr 11, 2023 10:18:05 GMT -5
Kiké is a 4th OF or sporadic fill in on any other good team in this league. In general I detest the gravitational pull towards super utility players that is present in today's game. They only have value if they can provide value on both sides of the ball, and the Brock Holt's, Ben Zobrist's of the world are few and far between. You need a lot super utility players when you have a 49 million dollar payroll. Give me 8 guys who are adequate at one position and one guy who can bounce around when needed, but this utility stuff has gotten out of hand. You need one guy who can cover the OF and one guy who can cover the IF, if you're lucky you need one guy who can do both and then you can have a speedster for PR. It's a byproduct of the have nots putting together winning rosters, but it should be a bug, not a feature. I think Kiké is a little better than that, especially if he's in CF, but I do agree that on a really good team he's filling in for a different guy every night. I also agree that there shouldn't be more than 2 multi positional "gamers" on a team. I don't care if a guy can play 8 positions. Can he hit and field? They keep trying to turn Dalbec into one of these guys and he can't do either. Defensively, yea, Kiké is a good player, but like I said before he gets exposed when he plays every day and is a liability on offense. He's a mistake hitter, rarely does he turn on someone's best pitch unless it's grooved and even then I've seen him swing through far too many hittable fastballs for my liking.
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