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4/10-4/13 Red Sox @ Rays Series Thread
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Post by manfred on Apr 11, 2023 10:23:30 GMT -5
Nothing like mixed results in 10 games to stir things up.
I will stipulate this: this squad offers support to whatever position you already took on the Sox and Bloom. For my part, I see areas of concern that I expected, but I see areas that look promising that I underestimated. I think I’ll wait another 50ish games to draw conclusions.
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Post by Guidas on Apr 11, 2023 10:35:52 GMT -5
Sure. But one guy is not a trend. And in the wake of losing Bogaerts (after losing HEWHOSHALLNOTBENAMED), whether true or not, it looked like it was as much a reactive, face-saving PR move as much as anything else. Perception equaling reality for all but the most analytical, which means the vast bulk of the revenue-generating fan base. If you people interpret Bloom's actions as face-saving PR moves for no reason other than it fits your pre-existing narrative, and despite all of Bloom's own comments going back multiple seasons, then there is literally no way you will be satisfied by what they do. Meanwhile, the Red Sox have one more $30 million players (1-0), one fewer $20-30 million players (2-3), and one fewer $10-20 million players (4-5) than your model organization, the Dodgers. They also went over the CBT literally last season. So I'm going to say that the answer to "When did the Red Sox become the Twins?" is "You're hallucinating." 100% of what's wrong with the organization right now is downstream of the fact that they bottomed out with a completely barren farm system in 2019. (Well, that and the fact that it's gone poorly with the $20-30 million guys they did sign.)
It was ownership's move as much as Bloom's. We were told so by Speier and others that Ownership is where the final approval lies with big contracts. There was the line above about "perception" and "whether true or not." I was also clear that perception was held by the bulk of fans who are not as obsessed with the day-to-day details as people here. That said, I don't know if Bloom ever wants to give a 10 year contract to any player over the age of 22. This was a first for him. And we heard several players' names who were "priorities" during all of Bloom's off-seasons, including Bogaerts and Betts. The ongoing point regarding the Dodgers, who are not mentioned above, is not only limited to spending (if I wanted to talk about simply spending to fix problems, I'd have brought up that team in the Bronx). The Dodgers are, on the whole, better at identifying draft picks, trade candidates, free agents and at player development than the Red Sox, even while hamstrung by some of the limitations (i.e. Luxury Tax penalties) that people here insist the Sox must not incur if they want to be successful. If Henry wanted Friedman, he should've grabbed him while he was available. He tried once before to acquire a like-minded chief exec when he went after Billy Beane. Shut down, he settled for Theo, who proved himself to be an outstanding CEO. Trying again to build the Rays but with a bigger budget, he decided on a Friedman acolyte. Unfortunately, Bloom hasn't yet shown himself to be nearly as adept or talented as his mentor. More's the pity.
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Post by manfred on Apr 11, 2023 10:38:03 GMT -5
On a more immediate note: I am not looking forward to McClanahan today. Not ideal matchup.
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briam
Veteran
Posts: 1,180
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Post by briam on Apr 11, 2023 10:55:11 GMT -5
That's fair and I get that, even though both modern investing and our GM would have you at a net loss over the last 3 years. Maybe my complaint is more specific in that I don't like Bloom's strategy and think that he's diversified too extensively. The pitching staff consists of Sale (who Bloom didn't sign) plus seven other starters who at least for this year roughly profile like #4 starters. The lineup consists of Devers (who I still argue they were nervous to sign/keep) and 8 players who roughly profile as #5-6 hitters. I'm over-generalizing and there are some caveats I could add, but the main point is that I would like a more defined core of players that the team is built around. IMO, the first 2 starters should be set in stone. 1-4 in the lineup should be too. I think you'd end up with a better W-L record and the fans would be happier too. Not just this past offseason but the prior offseason, Bloom said extending Devers was one of their priorities. Furthermore, locking up a young player like that on a long contract (as opposed to a 30-year-old like Bogaerts) is a totally different sort of calculation, and one that fits with other public statements Bloom has made.
Why does this happen so frequently? Bloom says "we want to do X." Then Bloom does X. Then people say "yeah well in his heart of hearts he didn't really want to do X and he just did it because [hand-waving and mumbling]." I don't get it.
But then if you can't somehow write off the fact that they gave their cornerstone player a 10-year, $300 million+ contract, it does make it harder to argue that they're constitutionally unwilling to give $300 million contracts to cornerstone players.
I don’t put any stock into what Bloom said. He also said Xander was their #1 priority, they wanted to add multiple #2 starters to push pitchers to more appropriate roles, they wanted to add a legitimate starter who can pitch well in the playoffs, and then said their rotation was an area of great depth that they would be willing to deal from. You “say” enough things and eventually you’re right about a few, but all in all it’s just GM speak. I find it much more interesting when he talks about process and their behind the scenes development than any of his roster intentions.
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briam
Veteran
Posts: 1,180
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Post by briam on Apr 11, 2023 10:59:45 GMT -5
On a more immediate note: I am not looking forward to McClanahan today. Not ideal matchup.
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Post by incandenza on Apr 11, 2023 11:04:40 GMT -5
If you people interpret Bloom's actions as face-saving PR moves for no reason other than it fits your pre-existing narrative, and despite all of Bloom's own comments going back multiple seasons, then there is literally no way you will be satisfied by what they do. Meanwhile, the Red Sox have one more $30 million players (1-0), one fewer $20-30 million players (2-3), and one fewer $10-20 million players (4-5) than your model organization, the Dodgers. They also went over the CBT literally last season. So I'm going to say that the answer to "When did the Red Sox become the Twins?" is "You're hallucinating." 100% of what's wrong with the organization right now is downstream of the fact that they bottomed out with a completely barren farm system in 2019. (Well, that and the fact that it's gone poorly with the $20-30 million guys they did sign.)
It was ownership's move as much as Bloom's. We were told so by Speier and others that Ownership is where the final approval lies with big contracts. There was the line above about "perception" and "whether true or not." I was also clear that perception was held by the bulk of fans who are not as obsessed with the day-to-day details as people here. That said, I don't know if Bloom ever wants to give a 10 year contract to any player over the age of 22. This was a first for him. And we heard several players' names who were "priorities" during all of Bloom's off-seasons, including Bogaerts and Betts. The ongoing point regarding the Dodgers, who are not mentioned above, is not only limited to spending (if I wanted to talk about simply spending to fix problems, I'd have brought up that team in the Bronx). The Dodgers are, on the whole, better at identifying draft picks, trade candidates, free agents and at player development than the Red Sox, even while hamstrung by some of the limitations (i.e. Luxury Tax penalties) that people here insist the Sox must not incur if they want to be successful. If Henry wanted Friedman, he should've grabbed him while he was available. He tried once before to acquire a like-minded chief exec when he went after Billy Beane. Shut down, he settled for Theo, who proved himself to be an outstanding CEO. Trying again to build the Rays but with a bigger budget, he decided on a Friedman an acolyte. Unfortunately, Bloom hasn't yet shown himself to be nearly as adept or talented as his mentor. More's the pity. Well right. The difference between the Red Sox and the Dodgers isn't spending; it's that the Red Sox let their farm system collapse in a way the Dodgers managed to avoid. I'll leave the giant can of worms closed by not pointing out the timeline of when that happened...
But your claim above wasn't this; it was that they only signed a big contract because of PR concerns. And you cited with apparent approval some media person claiming that the Red Sox are the Twins now because of their supposed disinclination to spend big (despite all evidence to the contrary). So is the problem a lack of spending, or is it their overall execution? If it's the latter, then fair enough, and I even share some of your criticisms. If it's the former, I think you're just objectively wrong.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 11, 2023 11:11:59 GMT -5
I think Kiké is a little better than that, especially if he's in CF, but I do agree that on a really good team he's filling in for a different guy every night. I also agree that there shouldn't be more than 2 multi positional "gamers" on a team. I don't care if a guy can play 8 positions. Can he hit and field? They keep trying to turn Dalbec into one of these guys and he can't do either. Defensively, yea, Kiké is a good player, but like I said before he gets exposed when he plays every day and is a liability on offense. He's a mistake hitter, rarely does he turn on someone's best pitch unless it's grooved and even then I've seen him swing through far too many hittable fastballs for my liking. I'm not overly knowledgeable about defensive stats, but I believe he is on par or better than JBJ defensively in CF which should make him borderline starter worthy on that alone. For him, he has been a mixed bag. Before last year there was 2 promising/very good years, 2 mediocre years and then last year he was bad. My thought going into this year is which Kiké are we getting, good or mediocre expecting last year to have been an aberration. Unfortunately, the 1st 10 games seems to be just picking up where he left off. It was also a worry I had about the defense because I know Kiké isn't best suited for the infield and then they signed a DH to be LF, a LF to be their CF and their LF from last year is playing RF. But even at height Kiké, he still shouldn't be leading off and that's the frustration with Cora putting guys like that in that spot. It's just even more annoying when the guy isn't even hitting .100 and he still does it.
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Post by Guidas on Apr 11, 2023 11:18:55 GMT -5
It was ownership's move as much as Bloom's. We were told so by Speier and others that Ownership is where the final approval lies with big contracts. There was the line above about "perception" and "whether true or not." I was also clear that perception was held by the bulk of fans who are not as obsessed with the day-to-day details as people here. That said, I don't know if Bloom ever wants to give a 10 year contract to any player over the age of 22. This was a first for him. And we heard several players' names who were "priorities" during all of Bloom's off-seasons, including Bogaerts and Betts. The ongoing point regarding the Dodgers, who are not mentioned above, is not only limited to spending (if I wanted to talk about simply spending to fix problems, I'd have brought up that team in the Bronx). The Dodgers are, on the whole, better at identifying draft picks, trade candidates, free agents and at player development than the Red Sox, even while hamstrung by some of the limitations (i.e. Luxury Tax penalties) that people here insist the Sox must not incur if they want to be successful. If Henry wanted Friedman, he should've grabbed him while he was available. He tried once before to acquire a like-minded chief exec when he went after Billy Beane. Shut down, he settled for Theo, who proved himself to be an outstanding CEO. Trying again to build the Rays but with a bigger budget, he decided on a Friedman an acolyte. Unfortunately, Bloom hasn't yet shown himself to be nearly as adept or talented as his mentor. More's the pity. Well right. The difference between the Red Sox and the Dodgers isn't spending; it's that the Red Sox let their farm system collapse in a way the Dodgers managed to avoid. I'll leave the giant can of worms closed by not pointing out the timeline of when that happened... But your claim above wasn't this; it was that they only signed a big contract because of PR concerns. And you cited with apparent approval some media person claiming that the Red Sox are the Twins now because of their supposed disinclination to spend big (despite all evidence to the contrary). So is the problem a lack of spending, or is it their overall execution? If it's the latter, then fair enough, and I even share some of your criticisms. If it's the former, I think you're just objectively wrong.
The answer to your question is, Yes. Specifically, lack of execution created significant holes. Ostensibly a team with large revenues can remedy that, especially with the past two free agent classes which had extremely talented players in positions of need. Instead, ownership has apparently have pulled back on spending on top of market free agents, so the mediocre execution will likely continue until either that's all fixed, or our mercurial primary owner decides to pull (yet another) 180...or Crazy Ivan or whatever it is he does when he suddenly changes leadership/strategy/tactics. And again, it's early. It could all work our just enough to get them to the playoffs. Like I said on opening day, we won't have a clue until at the earliest 40 or so games in. And even then, there will be time for adjustments.
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Post by julyanmorley on Apr 11, 2023 11:22:09 GMT -5
Are we really going to do this every time the team is on a one game losing streak
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Post by greatscottcooper on Apr 11, 2023 11:44:45 GMT -5
If only Rafaela was a year older.
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Post by grandsalami on Apr 11, 2023 11:48:56 GMT -5
Are we really going to do this every time the team is on a one game losing streak that dead horse has been turned into dust
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 11, 2023 12:14:34 GMT -5
Are we really going to do this every time the team is on a one game losing streak We'll debate this through the losses and the wins!
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Post by huskies15 on Apr 11, 2023 12:36:08 GMT -5
Super small sample of 10 games, but the only walk Devers has drawn was essentially an IBB. He is swinging at more pitches outside the zone so far (and inside the zone to be fair). He's always been an aggressive hitter but it's been in overdrive a bit to start the year.
There's another tier of hitter he could reach with a bit more selectivity. Hope we start to see that happen now that he seems healthy and paidddd.
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Post by scottysmalls on Apr 11, 2023 12:46:05 GMT -5
Super small sample of 10 games, but the only walk Devers has drawn was essentially an IBB. He is swinging at more pitches outside the zone so far (and inside the zone to be fair). He's always been an aggressive hitter but it's been in overdrive a bit to start the year. There's another tier of hitter he could reach with a bit more selectivity. Hope we start to see that happen now that he seems healthy and paidddd. He had a bad game yesterday, and agreed I've always wanted him to be more selective, but he does have the 10th best xwOBA in MLB so far this year.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 11, 2023 13:14:41 GMT -5
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Apr 11, 2023 13:27:22 GMT -5
Need Whitlock tonight. really hope the news about his health is on target. i know he was great out of the pen, but i really want his success to be as a starter.
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Post by blizzards39 on Apr 11, 2023 13:47:28 GMT -5
Rays throwing two ex-Sox at us. I don’t regret Beeks for Eovaldi, but credit them for getting Beeks and Springs off us for not too much. Didn’t need land us EVO?
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on Apr 11, 2023 13:55:58 GMT -5
Meaning as numbers normalize with a bigger sample, so will this. Like it's just a blip; or has he changed his approach drastically.. out of perceived team desperation (meaning he sees offensively he's all they have) or possibly pressing to prove he's worth the big contract? Because in my opinion he has looked pretty locked in, other than last night's game. As was discussed with Bleis last year, isn't there the theory " he's hitting the crap out of the ball, of course he's going to expand the zone" and therefore appear more aggressive? And not necessarily mean a flaw in selectivity.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 11, 2023 14:00:31 GMT -5
Meaning as numbers normalize with a bigger sample, so will this. Like it's just a blip; or has he changed his approach drastically.. out of perceived team desperation (meaning he sees offensively he's all they have) or possibly pressing to prove he's worth the big contract? Because in my opinion he has looked pretty locked in, other than last night's game. As was discussed with Bleis last year, isn't there the theory " he's hitting the crap out of the ball, of course he's going to expand the zone" and therefore appear more aggressive? And not necessarily mean a flaw in selectivity. Was more just confirming what the post was anecdotally observing. Not making a bigger point.
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Post by vermontsox1 on Apr 11, 2023 14:19:33 GMT -5
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,501
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Post by nomar on Apr 11, 2023 14:23:04 GMT -5
Ruin his confidence forever
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Post by julyanmorley on Apr 11, 2023 14:27:06 GMT -5
Would you look at that, he needs to spend 11 days in the the minors to not earn a year of service time, and he is called up for his turn in the rotation after 13 days.
Rays not impressed by the PPI.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 11, 2023 14:33:17 GMT -5
Would you look at that, he needs to spend 11 days in the the minors to not earn a year of service time, and he is called up for his turn in the rotation after 13 days. Rays not impressed by the PPI. He made 12 AAA starts last year and he's replacing the biggest free agent signing in the franchise's history. I don't think calling him up for tomorrow's game has always been the plan.
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Post by Guidas on Apr 11, 2023 15:25:46 GMT -5
And Cora continues his most at bats for Kiké all night every night obsession:
1. SS Kiké Hernández
2. 3B Rafael Devers
3. DH Justin Turner
4. LF Masataka Yoshida
5. CF Rob Refsnyder
6. RF Alex Verdugo
7. 2B Christian Arroyo
8. 1B Bobby Dalbec
9. C Connor Wong
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Post by julyanmorley on Apr 11, 2023 15:28:01 GMT -5
Yu Chang does not appear to be much of a priority
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